DrNukenstein wrote: »

I like it, but it would be even better as a big drunk idiot skill line.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'd like new World skill lines with active/ultimate abilities (not completely filled with passives like Scrying, Excavating, and Legerdemain are) that aren't mutually exclusive the way Werewolf and Vampire are.

If you wanted to make a build utilizing only World skills (such as to take advantage of the Archival Worldliness Verse in the Infinite Archive) your options currently are to either make one with just Soul Magic (if not a vampire or as a werewolf in human form), one with a mix of Soul Magic + Vampire (using some or none of the skills from both), or one with only Werewolf (since you can't use non-Werewolf abilities while in Werewolf form).

That's a total of three different combinations of builds you could make with the World skill lines, and none of them have enough abilities to fill two skill bars. I would take another World skill line only if you could also simultaneously be a werewolf or simultaneously be a vampire.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'd like new World skill lines with active/ultimate abilities (not completely filled with passives like Scrying, Excavating, and Legerdemain are) that aren't mutually exclusive the way Werewolf and Vampire are.

If you wanted to make a build utilizing only World skills (such as to take advantage of the Archival Worldliness Verse in the Infinite Archive) your options currently are to either make one with just Soul Magic (if not a vampire or as a werewolf in human form), one with a mix of Soul Magic + Vampire (using some or none of the skills from both), or one with only Werewolf (since you can't use non-Werewolf abilities while in Werewolf form).

That's a total of three different combinations of builds you could make with the World skill lines, and none of them have enough abilities to fill two skill bars. I would take another World skill line only if you could also simultaneously be a werewolf or simultaneously be a vampire.

*This line would be in the same category as Vamp/werewolf so it really wouldn't be able to be utilized in conjunction but require a cure in order to swap from one to the other. Vamp being a magic class and wolf being a melee class this would just be exclusive to tanks or an HP class so that we could get more appeal in the tank department and maybe a support healer. i feel like DPS already has a significant support backing with both of those world transformations so this is more of what we could do different for the alt players that get little attention.

Vampire can make for a melee or ranged healer, damage dealer, or tank, while using magicka or stamina, because they aren't limited to using only Vampire skills. On the other hand, Werewolf can only be a melee stamina damage dealer (not counting the use of proc sets to enable taunting or healing allies) because they can only use Werewolf skills. Since you're suggesting a World skill line for tanking and support healing, I'd like to see Werewolf and Vampire both be given in-kit taunts and support heals.

As mentioned before, a zombie/plague carrier wouldn't necessarily be sane enough to function in the ways that players are expected to, and merely existing might be a criminal act — zombies don't try to hide in society the way werewolves and vampires do. Though, I can imagine your idea would fit a World skill line that is themed after Peryite. Maybe it's not as big as having an entire Class based around a Daedric Prince like the Arcanist is, but at least anyone can gain this skill line — including werewolves and vampires.

Rektadon wrote: »

*Yes you definitely have more freedom with vampire overall but im specifically talking about capabilites usefull in the meta. a vampire tank that cant restore resources effectively isnt usefull in late game or pvp like gray host and the expense of resources does not make him a good healer optimally. niether can be used in those settings optimally but they can both be used in their dps settings optimally.

Rektadon wrote: »

And that idealogy of "hiding" in the world is a little bit of a reach, lvl 4 vampire cannot interact with npc populations so its not hiding in the world. and a werewolf cannot be in wolf form let alone use a skill in town, and that would invalidate any Necro class because they do not hide in any town nor are they present in any town npc wise. Where as Serk is full of plague carriers who are roaming at all stages of illness until they are mindless then they are seen as a threat.

Rektadon wrote: »

Wanting more support skills for dps skill lines is a totally different topic because the skills and abilites support DPS players this new skill line would be for the other half of a 4 man group which are the support class.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

*Yes you definitely have more freedom with vampire overall but im specifically talking about capabilites usefull in the meta. a vampire tank that cant restore resources effectively isnt usefull in late game or pvp like gray host and the expense of resources does not make him a good healer optimally. niether can be used in those settings optimally but they can both be used in their dps settings optimally.

Sustain currently is no big issue. Yes, Vampire isn't meta for tanking in PvE, but Undeath is widely used in PvP, since the tradeoff is negligible. I would argue that Vampire and Werewolf as damage dealers are far from meta in PvE, also. Despite their skill lines not making for great PvE tanks or healers, Werewolf and Vampire aren't all that useful as damage dealers, either.

Rektadon wrote: »

And that idealogy of "hiding" in the world is a little bit of a reach, lvl 4 vampire cannot interact with npc populations so its not hiding in the world. and a werewolf cannot be in wolf form let alone use a skill in town, and that would invalidate any Necro class because they do not hide in any town nor are they present in any town npc wise. Where as Serk is full of plague carriers who are roaming at all stages of illness until they are mindless then they are seen as a threat.

Vampires in TES can blend in with society by regularly sating their bloodlust to keep a more humanlike appearance. Given that the sun is deadly to them, they typically wear clothing that hides their pale skin — so the only real way to know if someone is a vampire is to see their eyes up close, or to see them use vampiric magic. Vampires also have hypnotic magic to help them stay hidden if someone were to spot them — this is what Stage 4 vampires do to re-enable the interaction with NPCs.

Likewise, werewolves in TES blend in with society by assuming their human form. The intelligent werewolves know when they're about to shapeshift, so they run away from nearby people when they feel the change coming on. There is no easy way to tell if a human is actually a werewolf unless they shapeshift.

Necromancy in ESO is illegal. If an NPC spots you using a skill which raises the dead, then you'll get a bounty. There are characters who are known to have studied necromancy, but they only use "technically legal" necromancy magic whenever they're in public. Necromancers do not need to hide their nature the way vampires and werewolves do — it's the act of necromancy, not the knowledge of necromancy, that is illegal.

It is illegal to be a vampire or werewolf, but no one knows you are one unless you prove that you are one. It's not illegal to be a necromancer, but raising the dead is an illegal act. However, one can argue that being a zombie, plague carrier, lich, or some other kind of monster would also be an illegal act. What would a zombie do to hide the fact that they are undead? Vampires are discreet about their undeath, but zombies have been known to be less intelligent than vampires.

Rektadon wrote: »

Wanting more support skills for dps skill lines is a totally different topic because the skills and abilites support DPS players this new skill line would be for the other half of a 4 man group which are the support class.

Vampire and Werewolf may not be support healer and/or tanking skill lines, but that does not necessarily mean that they are damage dealer skill lines. They fundamentally change the way that the character plays — Vampire adds skills and passives which are meant to supplement all playstyles, while Werewolf is an entirely different gameplay experience. For example, there is nothing stopping a tank or healer from being a Vampire if they wanted to use its useful support skills like Exhilarating Drain for Ultimate gain. A tank or healer could theoretically use Werewolf via the use of proc sets.

In the end, this proposed alternative curse would still be used by damage dealers, despite being designed for support roles.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

Not saying that their dps playstyle is meta im saying that they are both optimally utilized in their dps setting, undeath is useful for any character in perfect scenerios but in reality that passive isnt great if you have no recovery. its great for dps character that can get away. a tank that has to leave the battle for resources is not a good tank and once you hit cap all youre really getting is cons. And with Tormentor, wolf is a pretty good dps tank, but not optimal for obvious reasons.

So the idea is to make a skill line that's optimally used by support roles like tanks and healers? I'm not sure how well a zombie/plague carrier skill line thematically ties to tanking and especially healing. If this skill line were to be added, it may end up in the same spot as Werewolf and Vampire, being most optimally used with damage dealer builds. Still, as I've argued, Werewolf and Vampire technically can be used for support roles, too — so at least a zombie/plague carrier skill line would also be viable for all roles.

Rektadon wrote: »

And again your reaching because sure using skills in front of NPC will get you a bounty but its obvious that they know youre in bloodlust at lvl 4 and interacting with npc doesn't trigger a bounty, and you can use mesmerize which is a vampire skill that doesn't trigger a bounty, yet stealing in front of non interactable npc still triggers bounty.

I've been curious as to why getting that interaction as a Stage 4 Vampire doesn't trigger a bounty. Maybe it's because it simply wasn't fun to be punished with a bounty for forgetting to cast Mesmerize every time you try to talk to an NPC while in Stage 4. I think it's a gameplay design decision, not necessarily a lore design decision.

Rektadon wrote: »

We also have the "Perfect Scion" which (honestly isnt a good skill all together in my opinion) but it gives you all of the benefits of lvl 4 without the drawbacks. Which the perfect plague carrier can easily be the base passive which gives you all the benefits without the intellectual/rotting drawbacks. And honestly all of the skills and passive could be no different from werewolf where its only available in flesh atronach mode.

I'd be curious to see how that would work, since I don't have any in-lore examples of this happening. Also, the "flesh atronach mode" would also be a poor design decision if we consider how locked-down Werewolf is. If this is supposed to be a tanking or healing skill line, then locking you into using only "zombie/plague carrier" skills (by disallowing you to slot other skills) is going to be a horrible experience because the best tanking and healing skills are from other skill lines.

Rektadon wrote: »

Also you can easily argue that in werewolf mode they aren't sentient they are acting on instinct, as well as bone tyrant which is a variation of bone golem who would fit under your catagory, and even if the argument is that there are werewolves that are able to control their wolf form those are in the Higher lvls of the werewolves, the majority are non-sentient pawns, which is the same for both vampires and bone golems and plague carriers. And on the opposite spectrum of that in the monster zones, werewolves and wolves do not see each other as enemies yet in werewolf form you are attacked by both so you arent seen in the same manner on either side which if you were at the higher of the sentient hierarchy instinctively that wouldn't be the case.

Vampires and werewolves both have been known to have varying degrees of control over their mind. Some vampires, like those in House Ravenwatch, are in control of themselves, while others (like bloodfiends) have completely lost their mind. The same is true for werewolves -- some werewolves, like Narazda, Draven, and Edjar, can control themselves, while others (like the nameless caged werewolves in TES V: Skyrim) have completely lost their minds.

People who have control over their werewolf form are still sentient and may not be acting on instinct as much as they put human thought into what they are doing. Some werewolves are in control of what they do and still indulge in their instinct, such as is the case with Duke Sebastien.

I could understand a plague carrier still acting with their mind intact only if they haven't been completely consumed by it, which would mean that they are basically just a sick person. Werewolves and vampires in TES are immune to diseases, so it's understandable why they couldn't become infected with this plague. Still, I don't recall any cases of sentient zombies.

Rektadon wrote: »

And on the opposite spectrum of that in the monster zones, werewolves and wolves do not see each other as enemies yet in werewolf form you are attacked by both so you arent seen in the same manner on either side which if you were at the higher of the sentient hierarchy instinctively that wouldn't be the case.

Wolves and werewolves are not always friendly to the player. Sure, in TES V: Skyrim, being in werewolf form would make wolves friendly toward you, but that doesn't apply to wild werewolves (such as the aforementioned caged ones, who lost their minds) who will attack you on sight. Plus, wolves and werewolves are territorial. They aren't always friendly toward one another. This is also supported in ESO, with characters like Edjar acting confrontational to the player for getting too close to their "patch of ground".

For likely the same reason ESO werewolves get a bounty for committing criminal acts in their werewolf form (which did not happen in TES V: Skyrim unless you were seen transforming), ESO werewolves don't become friendly to all of the wolf and werewolf enemies in the game. ESO as an MMORPG chose to not make all wolves and werewolves friendly to player werewolves.

So, certain werewolves will be friendly towards the player if they are also a werewolf, but most wolves and werewolves are not. This does not necessarily imply that they are any less sentient than a human, because werewolves do have a reason for being hostile to outsiders.

Rektadon wrote: »

And lastly inability to mingle with the locals isnt really a good counter reason, i have a character thats at 50k bounty and im sure plenty of players have more. we cant even interact with 60 percent of the story because there's an undamageable sentinel everywhere along the story line disrupting our play through regardless of what we look like or our skill lines. Its a choice, and theres a cure if you dont want to deal with that choice. But at least its new, its different, it would be really fun to run around as flesh atronach and it makes the MOST sense for tanking because a zombie/plague carrier wouldnt really have much weakness considering its already dead and would be relatively immune to feeling impact.

Right, the bounty accrued is the player's fault and responsibility. However, it doesn't make sense lore-wise why a zombie is able to do crafting writs, be an active member of any guild, play Tales of Tribute, or befriend Companions. How would a zombie manage to do all that, given Tamriel's opinions of the undead and the zombie's own physical and mental capability? There is already the zombie personality and skin for roleplaying as one, but as far as I know, those aren't considered canon to the player the way an entire skill line would be.

I doubt that a flesh atronach would really be all that special for tanking, regardless. If anything, it'll end up being a reskin of Bone Tyrant, and there are admittedly better skills for tanking than a temporary transformation ultimate. Resistance to feeling impact doesn't mean that the damage isn't wearing the flesh atronach down.