If the archive is endless, why am I expected to just do as much as possible in one sitting?

Uvi_AUT · November 2023

What where they thinking not putting in a Save-Option? They did it with Maelstrom Arena. Why take a step back and deliberately make something worse?
I will not play this until there is a Save-Option. I am an adult. I cant predict if Real Life will let me play for hours without Pause.

Jaraal · November 2023

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

What where they thinking not putting in a Save-Option?

As has been noted a few posts earlier, they didn't want to have to expend the effort of addressing potential exploits or bugs. I'm not sure how pressing a virtual pause button would be exploitable... but they felt that someone would figure out a way to take advantage of it to the detriment of others, I suppose.

You would think that five weeks of robust testing on the PTS would be able to catch exploits, if they had gone ahead and added a save feature for testing. But since none was put forward, they would have to now make changes on live (as they have been doing with other bugs, like leaderboard dysfunction, losing armor buffs after transformation, etc.) They also have experience with allowing save points in solo arenas... but maybe that knowledge is not transferrable to the Endless Archive.

They weighed the cost of adding a save point against the cost of customer dissatisfaction and frustration (as was noted in PTS feedback), and decided that the current version of the EA was best choice.

SeaGtGruff · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Roxy wrote: »

all he said was ‘there were a lot of potential for exploits that we didn’t want to have to look at, there’s a lot of bugs that could come up from us trying to do that, so we just didn’t, but I guess if enough feedback wants it we can have a look at it’

Wow… just… wow.

Do they want this game to be a success, or… ?

I'm guessing the potential "exploits" they're concerned about might have as much or more to do with farming the rewards (such as the new class sets) as with earning high scores on the leaderboard.

LouisaB75 · November 2023

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

ADarklore · November 2023

I think they should implement a save... but have it so that IF you 'save' and exit... your future run (when you return) will no longer count towards leaderboards. I can understand the difficulty for implementing this when two players are running together... such as, does the save only work if both players return together or can they return as a solo? I'd make it so that the group leader actually has the 'save' and can return solo or with anyone else to continue that save.

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

LouisaB75 wrote: »

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)
In my opinion, it was probably something the most of us have access to and already installed on our computers.

Our mouse and/or keyboard application. The one for all the fancy lighting and such. Most of them allow for creating macros… that can automatically “play” for an unlimited amount of time. To, let’s say, keep your character swinging their weapon repeatedly.

I’ve seen it done at the dolmens in Alik’r. I’ve reported a fair share of AFK XP farmers using macros to stay logged in. Players not moving from their spot for well over half an hour, just standing in one spot, swinging their melee weapon at nothing or shooting their staff at nothing.

My point is, there’s already “exploits” that obviously aren’t caught unless another player reports it. Those AFKers in EA aren’t going to have anyone around to report them. So ZOS needs to implement a “saving” function for those of us honest folks.

AlterBlika · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)

Opening chat and texting something without helps, also opening crown store seems to work. Idk though, I just do both if I don't want to be kicked
save feature lmao

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

AlterBlika wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)

Opening chat and texting something without helps, also opening crown store seems to work. Idk though, I just do both if I don't want to be kicked
save feature lmao

What’s the inactive auto-logout timer? 15 minutes? 20? I forget. Either way, it’s too short for us on PC for those with long loading screens.

Roxy · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Roxy wrote: »

all he said was ‘there were a lot of potential for exploits that we didn’t want to have to look at, there’s a lot of bugs that could come up from us trying to do that, so we just didn’t, but I guess if enough feedback wants it we can have a look at it’

Wow… just… wow.

Do they want this game to be a success, or… ?

Be careful, you will see that that comment got snipped for ‘bashing’ when I made a similar comment about work ethic

reazea · November 2023

There absolutely should be a way to save progress in Endless Archive. The elitist of the elite are taking 10-12 hours plus to complete it. Anyone who has a real life can't put in that time in a single sitting. They just can't. (and who would want to?)

SeaGtGruff · November 2023

reazea wrote: »

There absolutely should be a way to save progress in Endless Archive. The elitist of the elite are taking 10-12 hours plus to complete it. Anyone who has a real life can't put in that time in a single sitting. They just can't. (and who would want to?)

How can they "complete it" if it's endless? I'm guessing you mean before they lose all of their threads and die? If someone is able to keep their character alive for 12 hours before they lose all 3, 4, or 5* threads, then more power to them. I can't even last 1 hour playing solo. *I'm not sure about 5 threads, but I saw someone mention that if two players have each collected the "extra thread" and go in together, they get 5 threads as a group.

Ravensilver · November 2023

I am sorry, but the interview is, in my eyes, only an attempt to excuse sloppy programming.

ZOS wanted something that would keep players in the game, even though they weren't adding real content for a year, and they knew that companies like for example Blizzard are putting out content patch after content patch for their games, keeping players interested and invested.

EA is meant for the 16-25 year olds who, generally at that time in life, have no life responsibilities, usually no families, no full-time jobs and can invest hours and hours into one game aspect.

Unlike those of us who *do* have lives, and responsibilities, are are probably quite a bit older and who can't do that. Though I believe that it's those players that make up the larger player base (= paying customers), we're not being considered in game development. Just like players with disabilities, or age-specific constraints.

I can understand that for young game developers, the idea that you don't have 10 hours to spare to constantly play, or have age constraints, like arthritis, probably doesn't even enter their minds. Which is a problem, because it's those of us who have been with the game(s) longest, who would probably appreciate a save-game option the most.

I know I would, because after about an hour (at most) or so of strenuous playing (and for me, EA *is* strenuous), my hands start to seize up and I can barely move them anymore. It would help greatly, if I could take a break for a while, ease the pain, get my hands limber(er) again and then continue.

I would very much appreciate if ZOS would develop their content in a more inclusive fashion...

valenwood_vegan · November 2023

Yeah the design of the archive has really killed my interest (as I expected) because all of my runs end due to time (or health) constraints, rather than to running out of threads.

I can't quit my job or stop taking care of my responsibilities to try and push farther into the archive, so all it is for me is running some boring / easy content over and over again.

I had one mega leaderboard run going on a Sunday where I got well into arc 5 before realizing that hours had gone by and I was risking being unprepared for work and having inadequate sleep, so I stopped and will absolutely never go back to try and beat that score. And this part *should* maybe be a little more concerning to ZoS... but that experience has actually caused me to re-evaluate the time I spend in ESO more generally, setting strict time limits for myself, cutting back on other activities in ESO, and seeking out different games that support a healthier gaming experience.

Tbh, I actually doubt that adding a save feature at this point would even get me interested again. And it's too bad, I really do enjoy the archive, but as I've said in another thread... I'm sadly not 20 and can't game like that anymore, and repeating a couple easy arcs until time runs out is not my idea of fun. What a missed opportunity.

JemadarofCaerSalis · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

LouisaB75 wrote: »

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)
In my opinion, it was probably something the most of us have access to and already installed on our computers.

Our mouse and/or keyboard application. The one for all the fancy lighting and such. Most of them allow for creating macros… that can automatically “play” for an unlimited amount of time. To, let’s say, keep your character swinging their weapon repeatedly.

I’ve seen it done at the dolmens in Alik’r. I’ve reported a fair share of AFK XP farmers using macros to stay logged in. Players not moving from their spot for well over half an hour, just standing in one spot, swinging their melee weapon at nothing or shooting their staff at nothing.

My point is, there’s already “exploits” that obviously aren’t caught unless another player reports it. Those AFKers in EA aren’t going to have anyone around to report them. So ZOS needs to implement a “saving” function for those of us honest folks.

Is that why, at the WBs in Fargrave for this event, I will see characters just firing off spells at nothing? I thought they were just trying to get ready for whenever the boss respawned.

I haven't even gotten past arc 1 of the EA, but one of the things that keeps me from even bothering is how long everything takes and the idea that I have to start over from the beginning each and every time.

I have played a couple of 'delve deep into dungeons' and the one thing I always liked is that I could have a save point where I didn't have to keep starting over if I had to quit for some reason. I could pick up where I left off and keep going.

IZZEFlameLash · November 2023

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

LouisaB75 wrote: »

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)
In my opinion, it was probably something the most of us have access to and already installed on our computers.

Our mouse and/or keyboard application. The one for all the fancy lighting and such. Most of them allow for creating macros… that can automatically “play” for an unlimited amount of time. To, let’s say, keep your character swinging their weapon repeatedly.

I’ve seen it done at the dolmens in Alik’r. I’ve reported a fair share of AFK XP farmers using macros to stay logged in. Players not moving from their spot for well over half an hour, just standing in one spot, swinging their melee weapon at nothing or shooting their staff at nothing.

My point is, there’s already “exploits” that obviously aren’t caught unless another player reports it. Those AFKers in EA aren’t going to have anyone around to report them. So ZOS needs to implement a “saving” function for those of us honest folks.

Is that why, at the WBs in Fargrave for this event, I will see characters just firing off spells at nothing? I thought they were just trying to get ready for whenever the boss respawned.

I haven't even gotten past arc 1 of the EA, but one of the things that keeps me from even bothering is how long everything takes and the idea that I have to start over from the beginning each and every time.

I have played a couple of 'delve deep into dungeons' and the one thing I always liked is that I could have a save point where I didn't have to keep starting over if I had to quit for some reason. I could pick up where I left off and keep going.

Yeeeeeep, it's the most basic of macro, you can even set it up with your favorite keyboard and mouse brand's software. You kinda see this behavior whenever there's public instances that spawns at fixed position and give off something desirable.

Braggar · November 2023

LouisaB75 · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

LouisaB75 wrote: »

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)
In my opinion, it was probably something the most of us have access to and already installed on our computers.

I heard it was something to do with the avatars but no idea what and haven't looked into it.

And I did wonder why the bosses in Fargrave were so crowded compared to Blackwood, with lots of random firing off of attacks when the boss was not up.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

I fire off attacks before the bosses spawn because often times when there is lag, you might not get in a hit besides the dots you pre-fired.

I am more interested in Fargrave dailies than Blackwood, because Fargrave dailies drop the Fargrave Guardian motifs. IIRC, those weren't available yet the last time they had the Blackwood event

LouisaB75 · November 2023

Ah I see. I need more Blackwood ones myself as I was farming Fargrave for ages for a motif for a writ a while ago.

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

LouisaB75 wrote: »

I did wonder why the bosses in Fargrave were so crowded compared to Blackwood, with lots of random firing off of attacks when the boss was not up.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I fire off attacks before the bosses spawn because often times when there is lag, you might not get in a hit besides the dots you pre-fired.

Oh, yeah, totally. I definitely didn’t mean that everyone standing still and firing shots were using macros. You can find me firing shots randomly while farming bosses, usually due to watching shows or movies on my 2nd monitor and not wanting to miss the boss spawning.
Dolmens are the easiest way to exploit XP gains. The big burst of XP when the final pinion is closed is what AFKers are farming. You don’t have to loot the chest to get the XP. I don’t even think you have to tag any enemies. Pretty sure you only need to be standing on the dolmen once the final pinion is closed. 🤷‍♀️ But my brain could be making that up. Idk.

During one of the last events that had an xp boost, I farmed dolmens in alik’r for hours every day, leveling some alts. There was this toon standing at the same dolmen, same exact spot, auto-attacking the air with their axe for hours. It was extremely obvious what they were doing. Probably went to work and left ESO up with a macro going. Sigh. Frustrating.

Anyway, it wasn’t my intention to sort of derail the post.

Endless Archive needs some kind of save. Maybe a potion we could buy with the EA currency that saves your progress for 72 hours, or up to 3 server resets (technically 3 days, but possibly closer to only 2 days if you start your EA grind late.)
That’s not ideal. But, it would be better than nothing, imo.

Roxy · November 2023

LouisaB75 wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

LouisaB75 wrote: »

But even without the save function someone found a way to exploit something to do a plus 50 hours run, I believe.

Not that that seems to be a priority to sort... unlike the leaderboard.

I’m just guessing here because I don’t know if it actually works… but I wonder if they found a way to keep the game from logging them out. (Is there downtime in EA where you can go AFK and not risk dying?)
In my opinion, it was probably something the most of us have access to and already installed on our computers.

I heard it was something to do with the avatars but no idea what and haven't looked into it.

And I did wonder why the bosses in Fargrave were so crowded compared to Blackwood, with lots of random firing off of attacks when the boss was not up.

Yeah, people have been getting glitched and staying in the avatar form even after the verse ends. My friend accidentally got stuck in the werewolf behemoth form, but seeing as how it doesn’t have a heal, it actually ended up ending our run as it persisted after death too. We tried everything to reset his character without resetting the run too. He left the group, I had another friend join me to do a round whilst he left the area entirely, he then went back and reset his archive, and when he joined back into the group, the moment he hopped back in to the archive the form came back.

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

Roxy wrote: »

all he said was ‘there were a lot of potential for exploits that we didn’t want to have to look at; there’s a lot of bugs that could come up from us trying to do that, so we just didn’t, but I guess if enough feedback wants it we can have a look at it’

I’m still really salty and bitter about this.

DinoZavr · November 2023

returning to Mike Finnigan in the SkinnyCheeks interview (timestamp 28:35)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ily2xhGU6HA&t=1715s

SkinnyCheeks has asked if game-makers can not provide with saving progress, or just don't want to?

Mike answered:
At the moment we don't want. there is so much tied into that progression in doing everything
There is a build up of Visions, there is build up of Versus
There is also exploitation behaviors, that you can get into if you have two people in there
and they are saving progress and they branch out and they get two more people and everybody jump
it becomes this never ending wormhole of trying to solve potential bugs

Thank you, both Mike and SkinnyCheeks. That is a great improvement of players-developers communications!

Well.. the absence of saving progress and the inability to skip early levels are two big (in my opinion) design flaws.
And, considering saving/restoring are just two tiny moments i still don't understand how this can be exploited.

Save:
at the very beginning of cycle 1 stage 1 in a given Arc both players exit into the hall and stand on two specially designed pressure plates designated with color or sign. Thus they save the group progress. Saved are remaining threads, visions and versus for each of two. (save before Arc 1 is unnecessary as this is provided by resetting the instance)
Restore:
when the same characters enter the Endless archive, they climb on the "restore" plates marked with the color or sign (situated far from the "save" pressure plates) and game restores the saved state
Other considerations:
saves expire in 30 days (or a week or leaderboard reset)
interval between restores can be set on 15 .. 60 minutes cooldown
same (interval) should be actual for saving, though later save with the same team should overwrite the previous one

(yes, this will require expanding the databases, making a separate on for EA saves, but its volume should not be serious,
just assign each save a unique ID and add and link players characters to the saves they made).

It is even possible for player to have multiple saves (solo and with different partners), though theirs number can be limited to prevent the database uncotrolled growth.
Deleting team saves: not possible. be picky whom you save your raid with. there is the expiration, remember?

what exploits are possible?
to prevent saving right before Tho'at stage (for farming class-specific gear) saves are to be made before stage 1 cycle 1
renaming characters does not affect saves, as CharacterID is recorded, not characters' name
deleting character involved is saves will make save restoration impossible, so this saved states will eventually expire

as for changing players in a team - this is not a "saves" issue, right the opposite: you can not restore the save unless both "original" (e.g. involved in save) are standing on the plates
players change the team composition before save (for carries and such) - game records the group membership at the moment the first damage done at stage 1 cycle 1 - and will not save if players characters changed during the Arc progress.

The scenario two capable players reach 4-4-2 (maybe other stages) and then one of them is replaced by the carry - for the Achievement (or both are replaced by the "tourists". i guess that is what Mike meant) can be done without saving progress, though the saves will shorten the process. how "dangerous" is that for the game health? in my opinion this hardly affects the grand scheme of things seriously. Carries are reality, not only in ESO but in other MMOs.
Generally speaking - is this the real reason not to implement EA saves?

what had i missed?

also game should allow skipping Arcs (like after both players done them 20 or 25 times) as capable players would like to jump into the difficulty they are happy with, not spending time on the content which they consider too easy. In this case game might offer them to start without visions, or offer a random set of visions.
(though saving game with a proper partner resolves most of that. Skips might be optative when two endgame pros enter the dungeon for the first time (for theirs newly composed team), or one of both have exausted theirs saves limits)

It would be really awesome if @ZOS_Finn addresses players considerations and communicated the possible improvements of Endless Archive, as there are things that definitely can be improved.

edit: quotation from Youtube interview may be imprecise. English is not my mother-tongue, sorry for that

jaws343 · November 2023

DinoZavr wrote: »

returning to Mike Finnigan in the SkinnyCheeks interview (timestamp 28:35)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ily2xhGU6HA&t=1715s

SkinnyCheeks has asked if game-makers can not provide with saving progress, or just don't want to?

Mike answered:
At the moment we don't want. there is so much tied into that progression in doing everything
There is a build up of Visions, there is build up of Versus
There is also exploitation behaviors, that you can get into if you have two people in there
and they are saving progress and they branch out and they get two more people and everybody jump
it becomes this never ending wormhole of trying to solve potential bugs

Thank you, both Mike and SkinnyCheeks. That is a great improvement of players-developers communications!

Well.. the absence of saving progress and the inability to skip early levels are two big (in my opinion) design flaws.
And, considering saving/restoring are just two tiny moments i still don't understand how this can be exploited.

Save:
at the very beginning of cycle 1 stage 1 in a given Arc both players exit into the hall and stand on two specially designed pressure plates designated with color or sign. Thus they save the group progress. Saved are remaining threads, visions and versus for each of two. (save before Arc 1 is unnecessary as this is provided by resetting the instance)
Restore:
when the same characters enter the Endless archive, they climb on the "restore" plates marked with the color or sign (situated far from the "save" pressure plates) and game restores the saved state
Other considerations:
saves expire in 30 days (or a week or leaderboard reset)
interval between restores can be set on 15 .. 60 minutes cooldown
same (interval) should be actual for saving, though later save with the same team should overwrite the previous one

(yes, this will require expanding the databases, making a separate on for EA saves, but its volume should not be serious,
just assign each save a unique ID and add and link players characters to the saves they made).

It is even possible for player to have multiple saves (solo and with different partners), though theirs number can be limited to prevent the database uncotrolled growth.
Deleting team saves: not possible. be picky whom you save your raid with. there is the expiration, remember?

what exploits are possible?
to prevent saving right before Tho'at stage (for farming class-specific gear) saves are to be made before stage 1 cycle 1
renaming characters does not affect saves, as CharacterID is recorded, not characters' name
deleting character involved is saves will make save restoration impossible, so this saved states will eventually expire

as for changing players in a team - this is not a "saves" issue, right the opposite: you can not restore the save unless both "original" (e.g. involved in save) are standing on the plates
players change the team composition before save (for carries and such) - game records the group membership at the moment the first damage done at stage 1 cycle 1 - and will not save if players characters changed during the Arc progress.

The scenario two capable players reach 4-4-2 (maybe other stages) and then one of them is replaced by the carry - for the Achievement (or both are replaced by the "tourists". i guess that is what Mike meant) can be done without saving progress, though the saves will shorten the process. how "dangerous" is that for the game health? in my opinion this hardly affects the grand scheme of things seriously. Carries are reality, not only in ESO but in other MMOs.
Generally speaking - is this the real reason not to implement EA saves?

what had i missed?

also game should allow skipping Arcs (like after both players done them 20 or 25 times) as capable players would like to jump into the difficulty they are happy with, not spending time on the content which they consider too easy. In this case game might offer them to start without visions, or offer a random set of visions.
(though saving game with a proper partner resolves most of that. Skips might be optative when two endgame pros enter the dungeon for the first time (for theirs newly composed team), or one of both have exausted theirs saves limits)

It would be really awesome if @ZOS_Finn addresses players considerations and communicated the possible improvements of Endless Archive, as there are things that definitely can be improved.

edit: quotation from Youtube interview may be imprecise. English is not my mother-tongue, sorry for that

Well, you missed the part where those two players can leave the archive, go farm specific sets for specific arcs, or craft specific sets that fully take advantage of the specific buffs they received during the run. You'll notice, there are zero crafting stations in the archive. The intent is, you have your bank space and your character inventory to prepare as much as possible for a run. If you don't have a specific set, or don't have skill morph scrolls, then you cannot optimize and the run is more random. Which is the point.

Not having a save prevents people from completely changing their builds, morphs and all, at random points in the archive. You can only adjust what you went in prepared to adjust.

A good example of this. One of the builds I was running through had the wrong morph of weakness to elements. So, I had to use another skill to take advantage of focused efforts during that run. My poor planning, meant that the attempt was sub-optimal.

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Not having a save prevents people from completely changing their builds, morphs and all, at random points in the archive. You can only adjust what you went in prepared to adjust.

A good example of this. One of the builds I was running through had the wrong morph of weakness to elements. So, I had to use another skill to take advantage of focused efforts during that run. My poor planning, meant that the attempt was sub-optimal.

Each entrance to the EA, the server could check for character changes. If it’s different, there could be a UI pop-up that alerts the player that they will be automatically teleported out of EA to fix it or they’ll need to reset their EA run to start over.

jaws343 · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Not having a save prevents people from completely changing their builds, morphs and all, at random points in the archive. You can only adjust what you went in prepared to adjust.

A good example of this. One of the builds I was running through had the wrong morph of weakness to elements. So, I had to use another skill to take advantage of focused efforts during that run. My poor planning, meant that the attempt was sub-optimal.

Each entrance to the EA, the server could check for character changes. If it’s different, there could be a UI pop-up that alerts the player that they will be automatically teleported out of EA to fix it or they’ll need to reset their EA run to start over.

So, Player A has a saved EA run. They leave and go and pick up an item from their storage chest in their house. 3 days later they try to restart their run and have to remember everything that was on their character and in their bank at the time. Oh no, they changed an enchantment or they transmuted a gear piece to a different trait.

Or, even more likely, Player B has a saved run. They leave for a day and accidentally gain a skill point, or even just accidentally earn 1 champion point. That 1 champion point could be the difference of a slottable or another passive for their build. That skill point could be the difference of having a skill morphed or not.

There are a ton of ways that this proposed save feature could be exploited to the detriment of the intent of the content. And you cannot tell me seriously that anyone wanting the save feature wouldn't lose their minds if any of the above happened to them and they were forced out of a saved EA run. Because it would happen with your proposed solutions, and the same players would be livid.

NeuroticPixels · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

There are a ton of ways that this proposed save feature could be exploited to the detriment of the intent of the content. And you cannot tell me seriously that anyone wanting the save feature wouldn't lose their minds if any of the above happened to them and they were forced out of a saved EA run. Because it would happen with your proposed solutions, and the same players would be livid.

It’s better than no save feature whatsoever. Anyone that wants a change should brain storm and try to find a solution to bring to the devs. Not just keep saying it can be exploited or whatnot. That’s not what we, as players, should worry about. That’s what the devs get paid the big bucks to handle.

jaws343 · November 2023

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

There are a ton of ways that this proposed save feature could be exploited to the detriment of the intent of the content. And you cannot tell me seriously that anyone wanting the save feature wouldn't lose their minds if any of the above happened to them and they were forced out of a saved EA run. Because it would happen with your proposed solutions, and the same players would be livid.

It’s better than no save feature whatsoever. Anyone that wants a change should brain storm and try to find a solution to bring to the devs. Not just keep saying it can be exploited or whatnot. That’s not what we, as players, should worry about. That’s what the devs get paid the big bucks to handle.

There are plenty, including myself, who see no reason to make changes regarding saves.

And, the devs have already used those big bucks to determine that saves were not what they wanted for this content.

DinoZavr · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Well, you missed the part where those two players can leave the archive, go farm specific sets for specific arcs, or craft specific sets that fully take advantage of the specific buffs they received during the run. You'll notice, there are zero crafting stations in the archive. The intent is, you have your bank space and your character inventory to prepare as much as possible for a run. If you don't have a specific set, or don't have skill morph scrolls, then you cannot optimize and the run is more random. Which is the point.

Not having a save prevents people from completely changing their builds, morphs and all, at random points in the archive. You can only adjust what you went in prepared to adjust.

A good example of this. One of the builds I was running through had the wrong morph of weakness to elements. So, I had to use another skill to take advantage of focused efforts during that run. My poor planning, meant that the attempt was sub-optimal.

Jaws, 120 of my 215 bag slots are gear, for "just in case". i also have Dynamic CP addon to simplify boss/trash CP changes
(this can be done without addon, but more time consuming. same is true about gear and skills changes with the Dressing Room addon - it can be done manually with no addons).
i doubt i have missed that. While one partner stays inside EA, another can teleport out, reconstruct the gear required and return.
this hardly relates to saves.
Of course, it is an opinion, but i don't mind using Armory Assistant in EA. At least, player has paid a lot for this feature.

DinoZavr · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

[So, Player A has a saved EA run. They leave and go and pick up an item from their storage chest in their house. 3 days later they try to restart their run and have to remember everything that was on their character and in their bank at the time. Oh no, they changed an enchantment or they transmuted a gear piece to a different trait.

Or, even more likely, Player B has a saved run. They leave for a day and accidentally gain a skill point, or even just accidentally earn 1 champion point. That 1 champion point could be the difference of a slottable or another passive for their build. That skill point could be the difference of having a skill morphed or not.

One CP point or one gear piece - these are not game-changing in a long run. Skills are what matter the most.
Of course, you can make saves vailidity shorter like 3 days, though one week is more players-friendly as working guys (unlike schoolchildren) normally have only weekends, when they are not strictly limited with them playing time.