Varana wrote: »

At this point, I'm pretty close to being convinced that you're mostly just trolling now. And no, this is not meant in a condescending manner. ;D

Just to clarify what we're even talking about: At some point, gaining CP uses its usefulness. It doesn't actually matter whether that's at 1400 or 1800 or whatever, it's much lower than 3600. So far so good.

Now you want to cut off the "unnecessary" points because reasons. I fail to understand why. They don't hurt anyone, they basically work as an indicator that you're doing stuff and gaining XP. They aren't useless - indicating XP gain is their purpose. They're the bells and fanfares going off, to feed that wish for positive reinforcement during an activity. In that way, yes, me like numbers go up, just for the fun of it. It literally doesn't affect anything else.
I usually play single player RPGs. And there, I sincerely dislike games that have a level cap, or where you reach the cap long before the game is over. Getting XP to level up is the game, or at least a significant part of it. Now, ESO doesn't work that way. But they found a way to have at least some minor "progression" (the " " doing heavy lifting here) nonetheless, and that's a really neat thing. I wouldn't be against making the system essentially open-ended, i.e. removing the cap of 3600.

And secondly, you want to get to the end of actual CP progression faster. And I feel like this might actually be the meat of this thread, just hidden behind a lot of smoke screens and detours through the countryside. And that is an entirely different discussion, and hasn't actually much to do with CP>1400, or "squishing", or all that.
Instead, it's about getting stuff faster, and how that is accomplished, is secondary. They could also make you get CP for less XP, and that would achieve the same goal. I doubt that they'd do that. They already squished the XP needed for the first few 100 of CP shortly after they introduced the system, so I suppose they're satisfied with how it is at the moment. And as others said, grinding is basically the whole idea behind MMO gameplay, so good luck trying to abolish that.

As an aside, the comparison to DnD (other systems are available) is ... not a very useful one. DnD has low numbers because it is played by humans doing calculations in their heads and using dice to generate random numbers. Computers aren't bound to these constraints. Crunching giant numbers really fast is all they can do. An RPG system that really takes advantage of what computers can do, will also take advantage of that capability, and work with large numbers or fractions behind the hood. You still want to curate what you present to the human player, but if they don't have to perform calculations on them, humans can usually deal with more complex numbers just fine.

If it's not meant to be a condescending manner, then you have no reason to assume I'm trolling either. You can't really call out someone for trolling without being condescending. Not how that works. The word "trolling" is rather tossed around willy nilly towards things that people simply don't agree upon, rather than saying it when people actually "are" trolling.

As for my reasons that you fail to understand why, you have the reasons right in front of you. In the post and in my replies. But apparently like most, you lack the comprehension to see them, so I'll explain it to you again. Just seeing that notification of "you've gained a champion point" continues to ring hollower and hollower, until eventually I just don't care. It has ran its course and all it gets is silence or a straight "meh". My comparison to it with drugs is a rather accurate one, because the more you have of it, the more you need of it for it to even take effect. Eventually you just get too used to it. If that doesn't effect you at all, good for you. You manage to get some enjoyment out of something I find, along with a few others of very miniscule importance.

You're semi-right on me wanting the progression to be faster. But the main purpose was to lower the cap. If ZOS wanted to, they can increase the required XP amount to reach the next champion point. At least when it takes longer, I'd feel much more rewarded like I actually earned it, since I did so much effort to achieve it. Like getting a level up, before you even reach Level 50.

As for the purpose of my thread being quote on quote, "hidden behind a lot of smoke screens and detours through the countryside", no. Dead wrong. I was clear and rather open to what I was saying in my replies, and they had some relevance to do with CP and squishing. So everything you wanted to know is once again, right in front of you to read. Don't blame the post, when you, among several others have made several baseless assumptions and jumped conclusions.

No, the comparison to DnD actually is a useful one. Because while it's true a computer can crunch giant numbers easily, the human brain still cannot. You're still having to make a few more calculations to judge the best ways of your character's build, because the computer will only give you a number, and that's it. You still don't know if like your 65 in your "accuracy" stat for example is high enough to where you won't miss so often, since there's the "agility" stat to take into account as well for dodging. Unless the game tells you what's the percentage of hitting someone that is your level, you're still left just making guesses, and even then, you still have to guess if you'll hit someone that's above your level.

Not to mention before such games like Final Fantasy got brought in which I believe was the first game to make numbers go well beyond 200, CRPGs like Wizardry, Ultima and Might & Magic to name a few still kept around the hundreds numbers because there simply wasn't really a need for giant numbers like the thousands. They focused on what really mattered which was story, world building and overall gameplay. Even if a computer is able to crunch in large numbers or fractions or percentages rather easily, the person behind the computer simply doesn't need it to do so. Instead, they can cram it all into a more simplified manner so that people who aren't as smart, can figure it out easily. Players who figured out that you should at least have a 70k in DPS on ESO, didn't figure that out because of the computer. They did the math themselves, by taking into account what skills they're using, what order they're using them during a combo, what buffs they have, what buffs the enemy has, etc. The computer only gives you data, which you still have to process yourself and with much bigger numbers, you have to process much more of it, which is stressful enough as it is.

Granted I will admit, I do go "Oooh!" when I see big "damage" numbers, but as for "progression" numbers, it has to be meaningful for me to get excited and so far, it isn't on ESO whenever I reach Level 50. The levels have much more meaning to me than CP.

Marto wrote: »

In my opinion, what should be squished is all the Champion Point levels, equipment, and materials. They're just a relic of the Veteran Rank system, and are really not needed to relevant with the game we have today.

Change all existing CP10-CP160 gear to simply be "Level 50", with the same stats and values as current CP160 gear. Maybe adjust the power of level 30-49 gear so that the jump is not as jarring.

Turn all ingots, logs, cloth, water bottles, runes, etc. of Level 50 and CP10-CP150 into just Rubedite, Ruby Ash, etc. Similarly to what the devs just did with jewelry crafting upgrade mats.

So effectively the game stops at 50? What's the point of that, other than as a critique of the jewelry change?

GuardianStriker wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

At this point, I'm pretty close to being convinced that you're mostly just trolling now. And no, this is not meant in a condescending manner. ;D

Just to clarify what we're even talking about: At some point, gaining CP uses its usefulness. It doesn't actually matter whether that's at 1400 or 1800 or whatever, it's much lower than 3600. So far so good.

Now you want to cut off the "unnecessary" points because reasons. I fail to understand why. They don't hurt anyone, they basically work as an indicator that you're doing stuff and gaining XP. They aren't useless - indicating XP gain is their purpose. They're the bells and fanfares going off, to feed that wish for positive reinforcement during an activity. In that way, yes, me like numbers go up, just for the fun of it. It literally doesn't affect anything else.
I usually play single player RPGs. And there, I sincerely dislike games that have a level cap, or where you reach the cap long before the game is over. Getting XP to level up is the game, or at least a significant part of it. Now, ESO doesn't work that way. But they found a way to have at least some minor "progression" (the " " doing heavy lifting here) nonetheless, and that's a really neat thing. I wouldn't be against making the system essentially open-ended, i.e. removing the cap of 3600.

And secondly, you want to get to the end of actual CP progression faster. And I feel like this might actually be the meat of this thread, just hidden behind a lot of smoke screens and detours through the countryside. And that is an entirely different discussion, and hasn't actually much to do with CP>1400, or "squishing", or all that.
Instead, it's about getting stuff faster, and how that is accomplished, is secondary. They could also make you get CP for less XP, and that would achieve the same goal. I doubt that they'd do that. They already squished the XP needed for the first few 100 of CP shortly after they introduced the system, so I suppose they're satisfied with how it is at the moment. And as others said, grinding is basically the whole idea behind MMO gameplay, so good luck trying to abolish that.

As an aside, the comparison to DnD (other systems are available) is ... not a very useful one. DnD has low numbers because it is played by humans doing calculations in their heads and using dice to generate random numbers. Computers aren't bound to these constraints. Crunching giant numbers really fast is all they can do. An RPG system that really takes advantage of what computers can do, will also take advantage of that capability, and work with large numbers or fractions behind the hood. You still want to curate what you present to the human player, but if they don't have to perform calculations on them, humans can usually deal with more complex numbers just fine.

-snip

As for my reasons that you fail to understand why, you have the reasons right in front of you. In the post and in my replies. But apparently like most, you lack the comprehension to see them, so I'll explain it to you again. Just seeing that notification of "you've gained a champion point" continues to ring hollower and hollower, until eventually I just don't care. It has ran its course and all it gets is silence or a straight "meh".
-snip

Multiple posters pointed out that it's not "meh" for us since we use those extra points to invest in other perks. So, when we want them slotted, we do not have to shuffle CPs around for a fee. We can simply swap them on the fly. With my 2000+ CPs I still do not have enough CPs to invest in all the places I want (especially in the green tree).

So, no, they are not useless to us.

ESO_player123 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

At this point, I'm pretty close to being convinced that you're mostly just trolling now. And no, this is not meant in a condescending manner. ;D

Just to clarify what we're even talking about: At some point, gaining CP uses its usefulness. It doesn't actually matter whether that's at 1400 or 1800 or whatever, it's much lower than 3600. So far so good.

Now you want to cut off the "unnecessary" points because reasons. I fail to understand why. They don't hurt anyone, they basically work as an indicator that you're doing stuff and gaining XP. They aren't useless - indicating XP gain is their purpose. They're the bells and fanfares going off, to feed that wish for positive reinforcement during an activity. In that way, yes, me like numbers go up, just for the fun of it. It literally doesn't affect anything else.
I usually play single player RPGs. And there, I sincerely dislike games that have a level cap, or where you reach the cap long before the game is over. Getting XP to level up is the game, or at least a significant part of it. Now, ESO doesn't work that way. But they found a way to have at least some minor "progression" (the " " doing heavy lifting here) nonetheless, and that's a really neat thing. I wouldn't be against making the system essentially open-ended, i.e. removing the cap of 3600.

And secondly, you want to get to the end of actual CP progression faster. And I feel like this might actually be the meat of this thread, just hidden behind a lot of smoke screens and detours through the countryside. And that is an entirely different discussion, and hasn't actually much to do with CP>1400, or "squishing", or all that.
Instead, it's about getting stuff faster, and how that is accomplished, is secondary. They could also make you get CP for less XP, and that would achieve the same goal. I doubt that they'd do that. They already squished the XP needed for the first few 100 of CP shortly after they introduced the system, so I suppose they're satisfied with how it is at the moment. And as others said, grinding is basically the whole idea behind MMO gameplay, so good luck trying to abolish that.

As an aside, the comparison to DnD (other systems are available) is ... not a very useful one. DnD has low numbers because it is played by humans doing calculations in their heads and using dice to generate random numbers. Computers aren't bound to these constraints. Crunching giant numbers really fast is all they can do. An RPG system that really takes advantage of what computers can do, will also take advantage of that capability, and work with large numbers or fractions behind the hood. You still want to curate what you present to the human player, but if they don't have to perform calculations on them, humans can usually deal with more complex numbers just fine.

-snip

As for my reasons that you fail to understand why, you have the reasons right in front of you. In the post and in my replies. But apparently like most, you lack the comprehension to see them, so I'll explain it to you again. Just seeing that notification of "you've gained a champion point" continues to ring hollower and hollower, until eventually I just don't care. It has ran its course and all it gets is silence or a straight "meh".
-snip

Multiple posters pointed out that it's not "meh" for us since we use those extra points to invest in other perks. So, when we want them slotted, we do not have to shuffle CPs around for a fee. We can simply swap them on the fly. With my 2000+ CPs I still do not have enough CPs to invest in all the places I want (especially in the green tree).

So, no, they are not useless to us.

Excellent point. It is good for all of us to recognize that we do not all play the game the same way. As such, what works well for one player may not work well for another.

As for the current CP design, having extra points out there to fill stuff for other builds or interests does not harm a person that sees a need for a more limited number of points.

While many of us would like to see some tweaks in the CP design, especially the "crafting" tree, it seems we overall see it as a decent design.

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Again, the lowered cap would not make much of a difference, and whenever I see someone say the "I like seeing numbers go up" excuse, I find that to be a weird way for someone to get their dopamine fix. I find it akin to jiggling shiny keys in a child's face. Does anyone really want to be like that, unironically? Personally, I wouldn't as that would leave any sane human being feeling slighted. I just don't get the appeal and it just feels like people like that are just starting drama for no reason, and are looking for petty reasons to complain, when they ignore the real issues that plague ESO."

Doesn't matter why they like the levels. What matters is they do like seeing the numbers go up and your idea takes that away for what you say is an insignificant change to how the game would work. So why take something away from people that enjoy that something?
It would be a time saver for new players maybe. That would be assuming ZoS doesn't change the numbers it takes to gain CP levels. If the amount of CP needed was decreased to 1/5 of what is currently needed I would expect it to take five times as much experience to go up one point.
If ZoS decided not to increase the experience needed for each CP that would mean much faster leveling for new players. Much faster is usually not good for an MMO though. The game needs players repeating content and trying a variety of content to keep the game population at a healthy level. The current CP system lends to that by giving players something to chase.
The idea would only be beneficial to new players and that benefit would be for a short time. So again why take something away players enjoy for little to no real benefit to the game?

I can only sigh in defeat from this statement, because, and I say this loosely, a bit comparable to drugs. People like that sort of stuff, despite it not being beneficial in the long run. A short dopamine rush, that over time becomes a deep mind numbing mental fog. Soon as that's gone, they're back for more.

They like seeing numbers going up, just the same as people like their energy levels going up by binge drinking cups of coffee every morning. Unorthodox? Maybe, but not untrue. This might as well be my final reply.

You are railing against human nature. There was a study done with slot machines. One set had higher and more frequent payouts but no flashing lights or noises. The other set didn't pay as much or as often but when you won lights blinked, bells went off all that kind of fanfare. People preferred the fanfare to the payout. Turns out there is a reason for that and it is engrained into all of us. Kind of a semi-dormant instinct. The lights and noises do create a dopamine rush. That is for the most part unrelated to how people react to CP though.
CP falls more under a sense of progression than a dopamine rush. Both are a rewarding stimulus but beyond that aren't really the same thing. Even in our leisure activities most people prefer to feel something is being accomplished other than just enjoyment of the activity. ESO provides that through many game mechanisms CP being just one. For most people games are played for either the rush or the accomplishment sometimes both. A game that offers neither has a short life.

And again things that take away from how long a player might want to play the game hurts the game. CP as is gives players an easy way to diversify their builds depending on activities. The suggested change takes that away and by your own admission adds nothing to the game other than reducing time to max out CP.

We're not talking about gambling. We're talking about level progression. Nothing about progressing in champion points has any relation to slot machines, no matter how much you weave the manipulative human excitement factor into it. Which is already morally concerning now that I read this.

you brought up the dopamine rush. I countered with a study that directly related to how people react to a dopamine rush. That it involved gambling is an aside and not relevant. And I agree champion points have no relation to slot machines. I said that in the message you responded to. I said CP is about the progression not the dopamine rush. I provided an example of what a dopamine rush is and how people react as a part of my argument. A sense of progression is why some people enjoy getting more champion points even beyond them being useful.
And you still have not addressed how your idea takes away from some players who enjoy progression and gives nothing to the game. It comes down to your idea having the potential of being detrimental to the game and there is no reward for taking the risk. New players get accelerated XP for champion points and your idea only applies to new players so why change a system that is not broken.

Because I simply don't get it. I can't really address how my idea takes away from some players who enjoy something that I find so unnecessary. It's such a miniscule amount of accomplishment, and when someone brought up saying "you can say the same about achievements", that was never my intention in saying achievements were the better solution. In fact, it's just the same sort of result. I'm simply only giving other options, and I have no idea why people are assuming things that I have not once said.

It makes no sense to me that such a non-powerful change, can cause people to see it as a quote on quote "DRASTIC" change, and everyone is all enflamed and they leave the game wielding pitchforks and torches. Just why? You still have everything, nothing has changed about that. It's just that most don't have to hurt their brains having to do stat comparisons by the thousands anymore. Really, that's it. It makes no sense for people to take such a drastic measure like leaving the game, over a change that doesn't effect them at all, and like I stated before, this so called "dopamine rush" is about as akin to having someone jiggle shiny keys in your face.

Do people really enjoy being mesmerized by jiggling keys? Something that is quite childish and belittling to the person witnessing it? That's what I'm getting at. Not that it matters not, because I have seen players where they'd see a change that they claim to be so awful, that they quit the game without even reading in detail about it, or worse still, not even playing it and experience for themselves. Then they always come back and they act like nothing has happened and continue playing the game like it's still the same. It has happened plenty of times before and it only proves that there's more to enjoying the game, than just seeing big numbers.

I don't get why players wanted a card game in ESO. If I wanted to play cards I would open up a card game. But many players wanted the card game and are happy playing it. I don't participate but if playing cards in game keeps players interested in ESO it is good for the game.
You don't need to understand why people like what they do. You just have to ask yourself what good comes from taking that enjoyment away. In the case of this idea no good comes of taking away CP progression. And in the end everything in the game basically comes down to pressing some buttons for entertainment. At a very basic level that is all any of this is.

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Again, the lowered cap would not make much of a difference, and whenever I see someone say the "I like seeing numbers go up" excuse, I find that to be a weird way for someone to get their dopamine fix. I find it akin to jiggling shiny keys in a child's face. Does anyone really want to be like that, unironically? Personally, I wouldn't as that would leave any sane human being feeling slighted. I just don't get the appeal and it just feels like people like that are just starting drama for no reason, and are looking for petty reasons to complain, when they ignore the real issues that plague ESO."

Doesn't matter why they like the levels. What matters is they do like seeing the numbers go up and your idea takes that away for what you say is an insignificant change to how the game would work. So why take something away from people that enjoy that something?
It would be a time saver for new players maybe. That would be assuming ZoS doesn't change the numbers it takes to gain CP levels. If the amount of CP needed was decreased to 1/5 of what is currently needed I would expect it to take five times as much experience to go up one point.
If ZoS decided not to increase the experience needed for each CP that would mean much faster leveling for new players. Much faster is usually not good for an MMO though. The game needs players repeating content and trying a variety of content to keep the game population at a healthy level. The current CP system lends to that by giving players something to chase.
The idea would only be beneficial to new players and that benefit would be for a short time. So again why take something away players enjoy for little to no real benefit to the game?

I can only sigh in defeat from this statement, because, and I say this loosely, a bit comparable to drugs. People like that sort of stuff, despite it not being beneficial in the long run. A short dopamine rush, that over time becomes a deep mind numbing mental fog. Soon as that's gone, they're back for more.

They like seeing numbers going up, just the same as people like their energy levels going up by binge drinking cups of coffee every morning. Unorthodox? Maybe, but not untrue. This might as well be my final reply.

You are railing against human nature. There was a study done with slot machines. One set had higher and more frequent payouts but no flashing lights or noises. The other set didn't pay as much or as often but when you won lights blinked, bells went off all that kind of fanfare. People preferred the fanfare to the payout. Turns out there is a reason for that and it is engrained into all of us. Kind of a semi-dormant instinct. The lights and noises do create a dopamine rush. That is for the most part unrelated to how people react to CP though.
CP falls more under a sense of progression than a dopamine rush. Both are a rewarding stimulus but beyond that aren't really the same thing. Even in our leisure activities most people prefer to feel something is being accomplished other than just enjoyment of the activity. ESO provides that through many game mechanisms CP being just one. For most people games are played for either the rush or the accomplishment sometimes both. A game that offers neither has a short life.

And again things that take away from how long a player might want to play the game hurts the game. CP as is gives players an easy way to diversify their builds depending on activities. The suggested change takes that away and by your own admission adds nothing to the game other than reducing time to max out CP.

We're not talking about gambling. We're talking about level progression. Nothing about progressing in champion points has any relation to slot machines, no matter how much you weave the manipulative human excitement factor into it. Which is already morally concerning now that I read this.

you brought up the dopamine rush. I countered with a study that directly related to how people react to a dopamine rush. That it involved gambling is an aside and not relevant. And I agree champion points have no relation to slot machines. I said that in the message you responded to. I said CP is about the progression not the dopamine rush. I provided an example of what a dopamine rush is and how people react as a part of my argument. A sense of progression is why some people enjoy getting more champion points even beyond them being useful.
And you still have not addressed how your idea takes away from some players who enjoy progression and gives nothing to the game. It comes down to your idea having the potential of being detrimental to the game and there is no reward for taking the risk. New players get accelerated XP for champion points and your idea only applies to new players so why change a system that is not broken.

Because I simply don't get it. I can't really address how my idea takes away from some players who enjoy something that I find so unnecessary. It's such a miniscule amount of accomplishment, and when someone brought up saying "you can say the same about achievements", that was never my intention in saying achievements were the better solution. In fact, it's just the same sort of result. I'm simply only giving other options, and I have no idea why people are assuming things that I have not once said.

It makes no sense to me that such a non-powerful change, can cause people to see it as a quote on quote "DRASTIC" change, and everyone is all enflamed and they leave the game wielding pitchforks and torches. Just why? You still have everything, nothing has changed about that. It's just that most don't have to hurt their brains having to do stat comparisons by the thousands anymore. Really, that's it. It makes no sense for people to take such a drastic measure like leaving the game, over a change that doesn't effect them at all, and like I stated before, this so called "dopamine rush" is about as akin to having someone jiggle shiny keys in your face.

Do people really enjoy being mesmerized by jiggling keys? Something that is quite childish and belittling to the person witnessing it? That's what I'm getting at. Not that it matters not, because I have seen players where they'd see a change that they claim to be so awful, that they quit the game without even reading in detail about it, or worse still, not even playing it and experience for themselves. Then they always come back and they act like nothing has happened and continue playing the game like it's still the same. It has happened plenty of times before and it only proves that there's more to enjoying the game, than just seeing big numbers.

I don't get why players wanted a card game in ESO. If I wanted to play cards I would open up a card game. But many players wanted the card game and are happy playing it. I don't participate but if playing cards in game keeps players interested in ESO it is good for the game.
You don't need to understand why people like what they do. You just have to ask yourself what good comes from taking that enjoyment away. In the case of this idea no good comes of taking away CP progression. And in the end everything in the game basically comes down to pressing some buttons for entertainment. At a very basic level that is all any of this is.

Exactly this.

I like having optional mini-games like ToT (though I wish it were a different type of card game) because it allows me to relieve the tedium of running around killing things while still progressing the game I like. I have seen other players complain about mini-games in various games before, because they don't like mini-games existing.

For every mechanic in a game like ESO (and pretty much any game more complicated than solitaire) there are people who dislike that mechanic and others who like it.

I am just over 600 points, and I still am happy about seeing that notification about 'you have earned a champion point'.

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

GuardianStriker wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Again, the lowered cap would not make much of a difference, and whenever I see someone say the "I like seeing numbers go up" excuse, I find that to be a weird way for someone to get their dopamine fix. I find it akin to jiggling shiny keys in a child's face. Does anyone really want to be like that, unironically? Personally, I wouldn't as that would leave any sane human being feeling slighted. I just don't get the appeal and it just feels like people like that are just starting drama for no reason, and are looking for petty reasons to complain, when they ignore the real issues that plague ESO."

Doesn't matter why they like the levels. What matters is they do like seeing the numbers go up and your idea takes that away for what you say is an insignificant change to how the game would work. So why take something away from people that enjoy that something?
It would be a time saver for new players maybe. That would be assuming ZoS doesn't change the numbers it takes to gain CP levels. If the amount of CP needed was decreased to 1/5 of what is currently needed I would expect it to take five times as much experience to go up one point.
If ZoS decided not to increase the experience needed for each CP that would mean much faster leveling for new players. Much faster is usually not good for an MMO though. The game needs players repeating content and trying a variety of content to keep the game population at a healthy level. The current CP system lends to that by giving players something to chase.
The idea would only be beneficial to new players and that benefit would be for a short time. So again why take something away players enjoy for little to no real benefit to the game?

I can only sigh in defeat from this statement, because, and I say this loosely, a bit comparable to drugs. People like that sort of stuff, despite it not being beneficial in the long run. A short dopamine rush, that over time becomes a deep mind numbing mental fog. Soon as that's gone, they're back for more.

They like seeing numbers going up, just the same as people like their energy levels going up by binge drinking cups of coffee every morning. Unorthodox? Maybe, but not untrue. This might as well be my final reply.

You are railing against human nature. There was a study done with slot machines. One set had higher and more frequent payouts but no flashing lights or noises. The other set didn't pay as much or as often but when you won lights blinked, bells went off all that kind of fanfare. People preferred the fanfare to the payout. Turns out there is a reason for that and it is engrained into all of us. Kind of a semi-dormant instinct. The lights and noises do create a dopamine rush. That is for the most part unrelated to how people react to CP though.
CP falls more under a sense of progression than a dopamine rush. Both are a rewarding stimulus but beyond that aren't really the same thing. Even in our leisure activities most people prefer to feel something is being accomplished other than just enjoyment of the activity. ESO provides that through many game mechanisms CP being just one. For most people games are played for either the rush or the accomplishment sometimes both. A game that offers neither has a short life.

And again things that take away from how long a player might want to play the game hurts the game. CP as is gives players an easy way to diversify their builds depending on activities. The suggested change takes that away and by your own admission adds nothing to the game other than reducing time to max out CP.

We're not talking about gambling. We're talking about level progression. Nothing about progressing in champion points has any relation to slot machines, no matter how much you weave the manipulative human excitement factor into it. Which is already morally concerning now that I read this.

you brought up the dopamine rush. I countered with a study that directly related to how people react to a dopamine rush. That it involved gambling is an aside and not relevant. And I agree champion points have no relation to slot machines. I said that in the message you responded to. I said CP is about the progression not the dopamine rush. I provided an example of what a dopamine rush is and how people react as a part of my argument. A sense of progression is why some people enjoy getting more champion points even beyond them being useful.
And you still have not addressed how your idea takes away from some players who enjoy progression and gives nothing to the game. It comes down to your idea having the potential of being detrimental to the game and there is no reward for taking the risk. New players get accelerated XP for champion points and your idea only applies to new players so why change a system that is not broken.

Because I simply don't get it. I can't really address how my idea takes away from some players who enjoy something that I find so unnecessary. It's such a miniscule amount of accomplishment, and when someone brought up saying "you can say the same about achievements", that was never my intention in saying achievements were the better solution. In fact, it's just the same sort of result. I'm simply only giving other options, and I have no idea why people are assuming things that I have not once said.

It makes no sense to me that such a non-powerful change, can cause people to see it as a quote on quote "DRASTIC" change, and everyone is all enflamed and they leave the game wielding pitchforks and torches. Just why? You still have everything, nothing has changed about that. It's just that most don't have to hurt their brains having to do stat comparisons by the thousands anymore. Really, that's it. It makes no sense for people to take such a drastic measure like leaving the game, over a change that doesn't effect them at all, and like I stated before, this so called "dopamine rush" is about as akin to having someone jiggle shiny keys in your face.

Do people really enjoy being mesmerized by jiggling keys? Something that is quite childish and belittling to the person witnessing it? That's what I'm getting at. Not that it matters not, because I have seen players where they'd see a change that they claim to be so awful, that they quit the game without even reading in detail about it, or worse still, not even playing it and experience for themselves. Then they always come back and they act like nothing has happened and continue playing the game like it's still the same. It has happened plenty of times before and it only proves that there's more to enjoying the game, than just seeing big numbers.

I don't get why players wanted a card game in ESO. If I wanted to play cards I would open up a card game. But many players wanted the card game and are happy playing it. I don't participate but if playing cards in game keeps players interested in ESO it is good for the game.
You don't need to understand why people like what they do. You just have to ask yourself what good comes from taking that enjoyment away. In the case of this idea no good comes of taking away CP progression. And in the end everything in the game basically comes down to pressing some buttons for entertainment. At a very basic level that is all any of this is.

The card game I actually enjoyed at the start, but slowly I just got bored of it because really, I've played all there is on it. The funny thing is, I wanted to play it a lot. I thought it was a nice change of pace. But it's just so low content that after a few days playing it, I forgot it existed. That's the main issue I have with CP. It don't feel impactful. With levels I felt like I was moving on up and it felt good, because it meant I can use higher grade items after a certain threshold, finally! But after CP 160, I'm just left questioning what else is there? All it is, is just stat boosts. That's it. I mean yay, I got more health than normal, now I can survive 1 more hit. Whoop de doo.

I don't think it should be said, but I just think there should be more than just that. You could say the same with other things with ESO. With each major update or chapter release for example, we only get like a week's worth of content and that's basically it. I thought the card game with the High Isles chapter would be amazing fun! But boy was I wrong just after a few days playing it. This whole game just feels like a slog, and it's not just the CP system either.

Hmm. I didin't have the impression from your early posts that you considered the whole game a slog. And after reading the response just above, I'm getting the feeling that you might be happier in the "gear and level chase" sorts of MMOs. There aren't very many MMOs like ESO, which is specifically set up by the devs from a long time back now (One Tamriel I believe) to be horizontal progression as much as possible, with top gear level at CP 160 - and only major bosses (from World Bosses up to Endless Archive, arenas, and trial bosses) providing a larger challenge.

And in fact, the lower amount of CP after about CP 1000 I think has to do with trying to maintain horizontal progression as much as possible.

I'm not trying to do anything in this reply but attempt to understand your feelings about the game itself, outside of your statements about "squishing" CP.

Okay. I see where I didn't understand at all what you were getting at; my apolgies for that.

Now.... here's a thing: the reason I'm happy with ESO is because I got to the point where I hated the gear and level chases in WoW and RIFT. When I did some research on ESO.... it was like "home free" for me. I'd always loved TES single player titles (I started with TES when Arena released in 1994, and haven't missed one since). The way the game was set up when I started playing in 2017 fit me to a tee; horizontal progression is perfect for me, and the slower pace of "leveling" is also a remarkable fit - for me (probably because I'm nearly 76, and chasing gear and levels is just unappealing at this point in my life) so a laid back game like ESO is just wonderful.

But I can see why it might not appeal to someone who wasn't looking for a very different sort of game. The one thing you can say with perfect truth is that at a point where you don't find any challenge, and you swoop through chapters in short order.... well, yes - it's leaving you feeling it's a slog.

This year's chapter is the first return to a larger story arc since Elsweyr landed. Prior to Elsweyr the story arc was over multiple years - for instance, Morrowind, Clockwork City, and Summerset covered most of three years I think (little foggy on that now). So it was a larger-scale situational arc giving those who liked that kind of story a lot to look forward to.

Necrom is the first chapter in the Shadow over Morrowind story arc. I haven't played it yet - I still have Galen to finish, but there are a lot of posts around here from people who have found it a really great lead-in to the coming additions to the longer story arc.

In any case, I apologize again for misunderstanding. Peace?

disintegr8 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

In my opinion, what should be squished is all the Champion Point levels, equipment, and materials. They're just a relic of the Veteran Rank system, and are really not needed to relevant with the game we have today.

Change all existing CP10-CP160 gear to simply be "Level 50", with the same stats and values as current CP160 gear. Maybe adjust the power of level 30-49 gear so that the jump is not as jarring.

Turn all ingots, logs, cloth, water bottles, runes, etc. of Level 50 and CP10-CP150 into just Rubedite, Ruby Ash, etc. Similarly to what the devs just did with jewelry crafting upgrade mats.

Stopping at level 50 means a new player on their first character would likely max out before they 'complete' the game, giving them no reason to finish.

Back in the day, my first character to hit level 50 got there upon completion of his factions' main story line. My first character to reach VR16 got there upon completion of Cadwell's Gold - which is completion of every faction's main story line.

I know the game has changed a lot since then, but at least I had reason to pursue Cadwell's gold - even if it was only on one character before the switch to CP.

I know CP160 is a residue of the old VR days, but they burnt a lot of people by raising the limit from VR12 to VR14, then to VR16 without upgrading the gear everyone had farmed or made, forcing them to go and farm gear and materials again. Any change to max level now would likely upset more people than it would please.

ever since 1T was released i've been of the belief that gear levels should be abolished entirely.
the way battle scaling works with gear while levelling is counter intuitive. I levelled up so the stats on my current gear are now worse? what? my sword is getting worse because i'm getting stronger?

imo get rid of all the different levels of crafting mats, flatten the whole thing out and make gear be just gear.

as for cadwells gold, i would take a different approach. put in a reward for 100% clearing a zone. a mount, a house, a cosmetic outfit. whatever. I know this is a crazy though, but maybe, Maybe put rewards in the game for completing things.

A bunch of the DLC zones, like blackwood, I only did the content because I wanted to buy the house. Here is a crazy idea for U41, just go back over all the old content and add rewards for doing stuff.

The primary reason I know of that people got master angler was for the boat furnishing.
Add Rewards and people will Do Content.

I stopped caring about CP once I got enough for my passives and 4 slots. Everything after that is whatever. I'd like to see the system expanded and more niche options added and the generic x% damage stuff removed.

GuardianStriker wrote: »

If it's not meant to be a condescending manner, then you have no reason to assume I'm trolling either. You can't really call out someone for trolling without being condescending. Not how that works. The word "trolling" is rather tossed around willy nilly towards things that people simply don't agree upon, rather than saying it when people actually "are" trolling.

Oh, to be perfectly clear, because you're not psychic either - that was a dig at your "I'm totally not condescending in my condescending comparisons" claim. It doesn't matter how you mean it, it matters how you come across to the ones reading your posts.
But fine, you're not trying to troll around.

GuardianStriker wrote: »

As for my reasons that you fail to understand why, you have the reasons right in front of you. In the post and in my replies. But apparently like most, you lack the comprehension to see them, so I'll explain it to you again. Just seeing that notification of "you've gained a champion point" continues to ring hollower and hollower, until eventually I just don't care. It has ran its course and all it gets is silence or a straight "meh". My comparison to it with drugs is a rather accurate one, because the more you have of it, the more you need of it for it to even take effect. Eventually you just get too used to it. If that doesn't effect you at all, good for you. You manage to get some enjoyment out of something I find, along with a few others of very miniscule importance.

I always find it interesting how people just assume things. The idea that players would feel "the more you have the more you need", with CP, is ... weird? unintuitive? just plain wrong?
CP progression slows down a lot over a certain point, to the extent that it really is just a message every so often. I did master writs worth about 2-3000 vouchers during the event, with an XP scroll on top, and got less than 10 CP out of it (not sure exactly how many). With how CP progression is set up, you don't get more the more you have. You get less.

GuardianStriker wrote: »

You're semi-right on me wanting the progression to be faster. But the main purpose was to lower the cap. If ZOS wanted to, they can increase the required XP amount to reach the next champion point. At least when it takes longer, I'd feel much more rewarded like I actually earned it, since I did so much effort to achieve it. Like getting a level up, before you even reach Level 50.

So the system works for you - because at a certain level, it will take longer. So much longer. You will feel very rewarded, I assume.
Getting a level before 50 is not a lot of work if you know how to do it.

GuardianStriker wrote: »

You still don't know if like your 65 in your "accuracy" stat for example is high enough to where you won't miss so often, since there's the "agility" stat to take into account as well for dodging. Unless the game tells you what's the percentage of hitting someone that is your level, you're still left just making guesses, and even then, you still have to guess if you'll hit someone that's above your level.

Not to mention before such games like Final Fantasy got brought in which I believe was the first game to make numbers go well beyond 200, CRPGs like Wizardry, Ultima and Might & Magic to name a few still kept around the hundreds numbers because there simply wasn't really a need for giant numbers like the thousands. They focused on what really mattered which was story, world building and overall gameplay. Even if a computer is able to crunch in large numbers or fractions or percentages rather easily, the person behind the computer simply doesn't need it to do so. Instead, they can cram it all into a more simplified manner so that people who aren't as smart, can figure it out easily. Players who figured out that you should at least have a 70k in DPS on ESO, didn't figure that out because of the computer. They did the math themselves, by taking into account what skills they're using, what order they're using them during a combo, what buffs they have, what buffs the enemy has, etc. The computer only gives you data, which you still have to process yourself and with much bigger numbers, you have to process much more of it, which is stressful enough as it is.

I'm not sure how to take these paragraphs. First, you say yourself that larger or smaller numbers isn't what this is actually about, because 65 is a pretty small number, and that players worked things out with numbers like 70k. So ... the numbers aren't the problem?
I'm also pretty sure I remember my Ninja hitting enemies for several thousand damage in Wizardry 7.

Okay, I get that now. Let me give a reasonable dissection of "gear and level chase"; you said you didn't play WoW for long, right?

I played WoW from early 2006 to mid 2013. Every year or so, the developers "shook the box". When I started playing it was just before the Burning Crusade expansion. When that xpac landed, I was still not even level 40 - and because of the expansion, the next level to work toward was level 60.

With every expansion, the levels rose and the need to get the higher level gear landed on me. It was worse than a job (and believe me, I did NOT play MMOs until I was retired - that would have been total insanity on my part).

So the "gear and level chase" is - xpacs come at regular intervals, shake up the game world, and cause players to start the merry-go-round of: figure out the new quests, figure out how bad your gear level is in regard to the new quests, and go chase new gear, then chase the new "upper level".

In 2013 I just couldn't make it be fun any more. So I left WoW and haven't ever been back. I moved to RIFT which was a totally different world, and that was fine for a while, but then the level and gear chase got me again. And then I found ESO - set in a universe I already loved, and an MMO (which to me means non-static unlike the single player titles - outside of player-made content addons) which was horizontal progression (no gear and level chases), and that made it perfect for me.

It's still perfect for me. But I can see how it might not fulfill the "fun factor" because of no upward progression outside of more difficult bosses in group content. And I do have to say, I'm not sure that "the slog" will get better even with a longer story arc....

TaSheen wrote: »

Okay, I get that now. Let me give a reasonable dissection of "gear and level chase"; you said you didn't play WoW for long, right?

I played WoW from early 2006 to mid 2013. Every year or so, the developers "shook the box". When I started playing it was just before the Burning Crusade expansion. When that xpac landed, I was still not even level 40 - and because of the expansion, the next level to work toward was level 60.

With every expansion, the levels rose and the need to get the higher level gear landed on me. It was worse than a job (and believe me, I did NOT play MMOs until I was retired - that would have been total insanity on my part).

So the "gear and level chase" is - xpacs come at regular intervals, shake up the game world, and cause players to start the merry-go-round of: figure out the new quests, figure out how bad your gear level is in regard to the new quests, and go chase new gear, then chase the new "upper level".

In 2013 I just couldn't make it be fun any more. So I left WoW and haven't ever been back. I moved to RIFT which was a totally different world, and that was fine for a while, but then the level and gear chase got me again. And then I found ESO - set in a universe I already loved, and an MMO (which to me means non-static unlike the single player tittles - outside of player-made content addons) which was horizontal progression (no gear and level chases), and that made it perfect for me.

It's still perfect for me. But I can see how it might not fulfill the "fun factor" because of no upward progression outside of more difficult bosses in group content. And I do have to say, I'm not sure that "the slog" will get better even with a longer story arc....

Personally, that would drive me insane too. If it was just gear, maybe I'd adapt. But combine that with needing to chase the maximum level on top of that? No, feels like a damn chore. With WoW, it seems it's too much, but with ESO, it's just too little.

Yeah, I see your point there. For me, it's just perfect, because I'm OLD, and I just don't have any need to chase ANYTHING any more.

I don't know if there's an MMO out there you'd be happier with. I really don't. I only know 3 - WoW, RIFT, and ESO. Others here might have different viewpoints, other recommendations for games to try.

And I hope the mods don't get their knickers in a twist over any of this....

TaSheen wrote: »

Yeah, I see your point there. For me, it's just perfect, because I'm OLD, and I just don't have any need to chase ANYTHING any more.

I don't know if there's an MMO out there you'd be happier with. I really don't. I only know 3 - WoW, RIFT, and ESO. Others here might have different viewpoints, other recommendations for games to try.

And I hope the mods don't get their knickers in a twist over any of this....

With the constant worry of people abusing reports on any forum just over something they disagree with, besides just ESO forums? Without a shadow of a doubt, I know people are reporting me to them, just to shut me up. Not to debate.

So I highly doubt they won't. But we'll see.