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Comparing Werewolf Transformation to Bone Goliath, Blood Scion, and Bestial Transformation

Erickson9610
Erickson9610
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This thread will compare Werewolf Transformation to Bone Goliath Transformation, Blood Scion, and also Bestial Transformation (from Stone Garden and Endless Archive) to highlight how they differ. I chose to include the Werewolf Behemoth transformation in this comparison because it transforms the player and it is considered a special ability bar like Werewolf Transformation. Note that unlike the Transformation Ultimates, the Bestial Transformation synergy does not proc the bonus from Shapeshifter's Chain or Salvation, nor is it affected by Pack Leader's Bone Broth.

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Ability to Crouch:
  • Werewolf Transformation — Disabled
  • Bone Goliath Transformation — Enabled
  • Blood Scion — Enabled
  • Bestial Transformation — Disabled
Werewolf Transformation and Bestial Transformation are the only Transformation abilities that disallow you from crouching. While it may be unclear whether there are sneaking animations for the Werewolf Behemoth rig, there are sneaking animations for the standard Werewolf rig that you can see in-game.

It is also worth mentioning that you are allowed to crouch with Volendrung, but you cannot stealth or go invisible with it. Regardless, this allows you to proc sets like Sentry and Darloc Brae, something which you cannot do with Werewolf.


Weapon Passives:
  • Werewolf Transformation — Disabled
  • Bone Goliath Transformation — Enabled
  • Blood Scion — Enabled
  • Bestial Transformation — Disabled
Werewolf Transformation and Bestial Transformation both lose out on their weapon passives while in-form. Not only that, Bestial Transformation also loses access to weapon enchantments, something that even the standard Werewolf can still utilize.

Again, it is worth mentioning that players also lose access to their weapon passives while Volendrung is equipped. This is likely due to some bug that prevents weapon passives from being registered while a special ability bar is active. Note that Volendrung is labeled as an "Artifact Weapon" bar, Bestial Transformation is labeled as a "Special" bar, and Werewolf Transformation is labeled as a "Werewolf" bar.


Ability to Revert Form:
  • Werewolf Transformation — On command, or by depleting timer
  • Bone Goliath Transformation — By dying, or by depleting timer
  • Blood Scion — By dying, by depleting timer, or on command while within Bastion Sanguinaris
  • Bestial Transformation — By depleting timer (Stone Garden), by wolfsbane formula (Stone Garden), or by finishing the next round (Endless Archive)
Werewolf Transformation stands alone as the only Transformation ability to allow players to revert form at will anywhere, while you are only given the option to revert Blood Scion form when transformed within Bastion Sanguinaris. Werewolf Transformation and Bestial Transformation don't revert your form upon death, which fits the lore of werewolves in The Elder Scrolls.


Ability to Extend Timer:
  • Werewolf Transformation — Enabled via Feral Pounce/Carnage, Devour, Blood Rage, and timer is slowed with Call of the Pack. Timer is paused at Werewolf ritual sites, Hunter's Glade, and the Werewolf tutorial zone
  • Bone Goliath Transformation — Disabled
  • Blood Scion — Disabled, but the timer is extended to 24 hours within Bastion Sanguinaris
  • Bestial Transformation — Disabled, but the timer is prolonged in the fight against Arkasis the Mad Alchemist until the wolfsbane formula is used (Stone Garden) or until the next round is completed (Endless Archive)
Werewolf Transformation is designed around extending the timer, encouraging you to group with other werewolves to remain in-form for as long as possible. Werewolves in TES V: Skyrim were also able to feed on corpses to extend their timer, so ESO's implementation is lore-appropriate. Interestingly, Bestial Transformation also has some benefit for transformed allies, as the Lead The Pack Ultimate ability will revive fallen transformed Werewolf Behemoth allies (Stone Garden), and in some cases can revive all allies (Endless Archive).

An aside, but it's interesting how Volendrung can have its "timer" extended by earning Alliance Points, much like how you extend the timer of Werewolf Transformation by devouring corpses.


Ability to Gain/Cast Ultimate:
  • Werewolf Transformation — You cannot gain Ultimate, but you can cast the Ultimate again to revert form
  • Bone Goliath Transformation — Disabled
  • Blood Scion — You cannot gain Ultimate, but you can cast the Ultimate again in Bastion Sanguinaris to revert form
  • Bestial Transformation — Enabled, used to cast Lead The Pack
Werewolf Transformation reserves the Ultimate ability for allowing players to revert form at will — this is like how you would revert form in Blood Scion form when transformed in Bastion Sanguinaris. Bestial Transformation, on the other hand, is unique in that it is designed to allow you to gain Ultimate to cast while in-form. Compare Bestial Transformation to Volendrung, as they are both special ability bars which allow you to gain and cast Ultimate.


In short, it seems like there are two broad categories of Transformation ability: the first kind changes your entire animation set and replaces your ability bar with a special one (Werewolf Transformation and Bestial Transformation), while the second kind seems to only make the character larger while using the standard humanoid abilities and animations (Bone Goliath Transformation and Blood Scion). The first kind generally does not allow you to crouch or use weapon passives, while the second kind is functionally very similar to a regular human build.

Werewolf should be reworked to enable weapon passives and be given the ability to sneak, as both Bone Goliath and Blood Scion are able to utilize those features. Compared to the other Transformation abilities, Werewolf Transformation is the most lacking. Even a rework to make Werewolf Transformation more like Bestial Transformation with a functional Ultimate ability while transformed would be much appreciated.
Edited by Erickson9610 on November 5, 2023 8:36AM
PC/NA — Lone Werewolf, the Templar Khajiit Werewolf

Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak
Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color), Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    i kind of wish that blood scion/bone goliath had the ability to extend their timers, even if just a little bit

    necromancer should be able to extend timer consuming corpses, vampire ult should be able to be extended when using either the vampire feed (might be hard if npcs will apply bounty just seeing you as a blood scion), or by using the vampire drain ability (giving it some more use than just a "meme" skill)

    this would have to be balanced in some way with the other buffs you get while active (stat buffs + dmg aoe), but right now 20 sec doesnt really feel long enough to really be impactful, and that you cant generate ultimate doesnt even make them useful as say a tanking tool

    on the PTS they applied the "cannot earn ultimate" while in corrosive armor for DK, but not on magma shell, which makes magma shell an arguably better ultimate than either goliath or blood scion
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • Nebs
    Nebs
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    i kind of wish that blood scion/bone goliath had the ability to extend their timers, even if just a little bit

    necromancer should be able to extend timer consuming corpses, vampire ult should be able to be extended when using either the vampire feed (might be hard if npcs will apply bounty just seeing you as a blood scion), or by using the vampire drain ability (giving it some more use than just a "meme" skill)

    I think Goliath would be too powerful if that timer could be extended. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to bash all the way through a dungeon or battle grounds, but I feel like the timer is already pretty generous.

    I really like the idea of the drain ability extending blood scion though. It's a low damage ability and maybe only the ult Morph version would extend the transformation, and not even by 3 seconds so you still couldn't maintain scion indefinitely? It'd be cool to have a reason to use that even while in scion form.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    Nebs wrote: »
    i kind of wish that blood scion/bone goliath had the ability to extend their timers, even if just a little bit

    necromancer should be able to extend timer consuming corpses, vampire ult should be able to be extended when using either the vampire feed (might be hard if npcs will apply bounty just seeing you as a blood scion), or by using the vampire drain ability (giving it some more use than just a "meme" skill)

    I think Goliath would be too powerful if that timer could be extended. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to bash all the way through a dungeon or battle grounds, but I feel like the timer is already pretty generous.

    I really like the idea of the drain ability extending blood scion though. It's a low damage ability and maybe only the ult Morph version would extend the transformation, and not even by 3 seconds so you still couldn't maintain scion indefinitely? It'd be cool to have a reason to use that even while in scion form.

    i dont really see goliath as that powerful, the only stat boost its giving you is 30k max hp

    and like WW, there could be a cooldown on time extension so it will eventually run out, you just can delay it a bit

    like consuming a corpse increases duration by 1 sec, but has a 3 sec cooldown, if the current timer is 20 sec, if you consume instantly that would put it at 21 sec, then it wont be able to trigger again until 18 sec remaining, put it at 19, then wont trigger again until 16

    so at a maximum if you had a corpse to consume every 3 sec you could only extend it by about 7-8 seconds, and only if you were consuming corpses

    an alternative to the corpses extending the timer, is still allowing necrotic potency to collect ultimate even while in goliath form, but this would be the only way to generate ultimate in that form, so potentially if you had enough corpses you could chain cast goliath instead of increasing the duration

    the blood scion on the other hand, you get +10k max to all stats, and the aoe dot is a lot stronger than on the goliath, but as you noted the vampire drain ability is very low dmg to begin with, so if they are casting that they arent able to do much else
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • Panderbander
    Panderbander
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    The reason those transformations have a short duration that can't be extended is because of the power they offer on top of your existing abilities and passives. That could be aoe damage, extra stats, or unique abilities, but they both improve upon your base form for the duration.

    Werewolf doesn't see this sort of boost, if anything a player that pops the werewolf ultimate gets weaker because of all the lost passives, back bar, and skills that are no longer castable. It is not played as an ultimate that "turns the tide of battle" (as the ZOS hint likes to say) but rather a new class with its own strengths and weaknesses. There is no boost, and thus it is an indefinite transformation so long as you're actively engaging in combat or devouring corpses.
    Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    After testing the Bestial Transformation within the Endless Archive, I found that it operates very closely to its iteration in Stone Garden. Though, it seems to have new functionality, such as the ability to Roll Dodge while in Werewolf Behemoth form, which is currently not possible to do while transformed into a Werewolf Behemoth in Stone Garden.
    PC/NA — Lone Werewolf, the Templar Khajiit Werewolf

    Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak
    Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color), Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
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    Werewolf form having an ultimate effect (maybe one that costs werewolf timer time instead of ult) could help shore up some of the areas of weakness.

    For PvE, it could be as easy as giving Major Slayer or other buffs.

    Hard to say what would help for PvP because so many stats are swappable—I would think some burst damage and maybe a HoT/short buffs.
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    After testing the Bestial Transformation within the Endless Archive, I found that it operates very closely to its iteration in Stone Garden. Though, it seems to have new functionality, such as the ability to Roll Dodge while in Werewolf Behemoth form, which is currently not possible to do while transformed into a Werewolf Behemoth in Stone Garden.

    i think they did that because the variation in endless archive does not give you 800k max hp lol

    with 800k max hp in stone garden you dont really have to dodge anything because you have such a massive hp pool
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
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