Change vamp vuln to fire to breach from fire

IAVITNI · September 2023

Instead of the the increased damage to fire, have fire abilities apply Major Breach

1. Thematically, fire still weakens them
2. Reduces bias towards DKs as it’s a universal damage boost
3. Reduces effectiveness of DKs vs vamp as most builds already run major fracture in PvP
4. May even help PvE a bit. Idk
5. Simplifies buffs by removing unique debuff

This would require a bit of fine tuning to the rest of the vampire skill line though.

Vamp stage is still balanced by cost increase, but this can be easily adjusted

Undeath can be reduced for PvP, as total incoming damage to vamps should normalize/decrease vs all classes

*** just to flesh out the concept
Using a dk-opponent as an example, the vampire would have

- 100% uptime of Major Breach (applied to the vampire)
- 100% uptime on cost increase (based on vampy stage)
- Major (or Minor) Protection when low

Panderbander · September 2023

Undeath doesn't need reduced, it needs removed.

VinnyGambini · September 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

Undeath doesn't need reduced, it needs removed.

Personally I think that undead should be reworked completely, so not everyone is vamp for undeath passive.

To compensate tankiness a bit, make battle spirit reduce 10% more dmg. This way DK and fire dmg proc sets will be indirectly nerfed.

tomofhyrule · September 2023

Major Fracture? You mean the debuff that was removed from the game three years ago in update 28?

While I see what the end goal of this is (to make DKs less oppressive in PvP), there is still some semblance of roleplaying that should be possible in a roleplaying game (albeit a massively multiplayer one), and "Vampires are weak to fire" is a pretty big one. I understand why it exists.

Now maybe for PvP specifically (through battle spirit), they could get equivalent weaknesses to other elements and damage types to make PvP more fair. But outside of PvP, it should stick with the lore. Something should, at least.

Besides, you admit that Breach is very common in PvP. That means that vampires wouldn't get extra debuffs by being vampires, which would only make Vampirism and Undeath more important since the downside is completely nullified. Shouldn't it instead be a unique debuff so players would have to choose whether they'll risk the extra damage taken from others to take use of the Undeath passive?

Or... ZOS could make Undeath less mandatory in PvP, which means that fewer players would have a reason to run vamp since there are so many sources of fire around for not much benefit.

IAVITNI · September 2023

@tomofhyrule major breach major fracture. People know what I mean. Considering they did the same thing anyways. Way to nitpick at terminology and miss the point entirely.

The theme of fire is still present and is in fact, reinforced. Taking fire damage makes vamp weaker across the board instead of just to fire.

Lore consideration is still there. Not sure where you’re coming from. This aligns with the dunmer change from fire damage to flat spell/weapon damage.

And yea, I highlight that it’s a debuff common in pvp, hence undeath can be balanced accordingly to match the decrease in cost.

Instead of 33% it could justifiably be dropped to 10 or even 5, with the consideration revolving around resource cost for pvp. Most people would still take it assuming the cost increase is also reduced or stays around 5%.

Literally all your concerns were addressed on the OP.

Arcturus · September 2023

Vampirism itself needs a second rework.

This time, hopefully, with a proper VL transformation instead of a plastic cursed barbie re-skinned goliath and actual viability for either PvE or PvP without being mandatory for either.

I've always liked vampires so I don't mind much but I'm certain people who don't like them, aren't into them or otherwise don't have a vampire RP theme for their character hate having to be one for PvP.

MashmalloMan · September 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Major Fracture? You mean the debuff that was removed from the game three years ago in update 28?

...

Besides, you admit that Breach is very common in PvP.

How do you go from specifying an update that happened 3 years ago, which you had to have researched prior to commenting, to then admiting you understand OP meant Breach a paragraph later.. unnecessary.

To OP, I like the premise of your idea, but I feel it could be improved. Problem is major breach would buff vampires(aka anyone) since any pvp build should be keeping it up as much as possible to begin with. They would just lose fire damage taken.

A few options come to mind:

1. Low effort adjustment: instead of breach, just change the current "flame damage taken" to "after taking flame damage, increase damage received by x for 4s". This gives everyone an opportunity since any class can run at least 1 source via flame glyph or a skill to proc it on key targets.

2. Medium effort adjustment: rework the skill line in addition to the above. Undeath becomes more nuanced, by scaling based on number of vampire skills slotted on either bar. This way not anyone can benefit from it just for going stage 3 and using no vamp skills. Reward players that actually RP with full vampire skills, rather than the measily cost reduction no one cares about.

Undeath is arguably a more problematic issue right now so it should accompany any vampire 3.0 changes.

I would add that I'd also prefer a healing done for vamp skills increase with low health rather than damage reduction, that feels more thematically in line with what they aimed the sub class to do given how all their skills work and vampires in general as blood sucking leeches. 😂

CameraBeardThePirate · October 2023

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Undeath doesn't need reduced, it needs removed.

Personally I think that undead should be reworked completely, so not everyone is vamp for undeath passive.

To compensate tankiness a bit, make battle spirit reduce 10% more dmg. This way DK and fire dmg proc sets will be indirectly nerfed.

There's absolutely no need to "compensate for the loss of tankiness". Undeath is too strong, and people across the board are too durable. Tankiness going down across the board would be an overall positive.

Twohothardware · October 2023

Undeath needs to be removed or tied completely to number of vampire skills slotted and then they can do whatever to the fire damage.

The only people running Werewolf are those doing a Werewolf build. Vampire should be the same instead of a huge passive buff to every PvP build.

bar_boss_A · October 2023

Why not change undeath to a self-ress passive which can kick in every 5mins?

It is not invasive combat wise and especially in PvP it reduces the time to "find the fight". The only draw-back I see is: you have to kill those tower/wall-humpers twice.

i11ionward · October 2023

How about changing the description of Undeath's passive to:
Reduces your damage taken and healing done by up to 30% based on your missing Health.

Although I prefer the option that you deal less healing with each vampire stage, for example:
Stage 1/2/3/4 Healing Done: -6%/-10%/-16%/-24%.
There is even logic to this from a lore. A vampire is neither alive nor dead, he needs to take away the life force of others in order to receive his own strength. So please tell me, how in such a situation can a vampire give this life force to others?

Zastrix · October 2023

i11ionward wrote: »

How about changing the description of Undeath's passive to:
Reduces your damage taken and healing done by up to 30% based on your missing Health.

Although I prefer the option that you deal less healing with each vampire stage, for example:
Stage 1/2/3/4 Healing Done: -6%/-10%/-16%/-24%.
There is even logic to this from a lore. A vampire is neither alive nor dead, he needs to take away the life force of others in order to receive his own strength. So please tell me, how in such a situation can a vampire give this life force to others?

Erm no. He needs to take away life force? With which skill? The skill which doesn't do anything and is worthless in most scenarios in PvP and worthless in all scenarios in PvE? Lore-wise they'd have more magicka regen as they're usually masters of the arcane and actually be stronger depends on which stage they're at. Not be more worthless.

i11ionward · October 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about changing the description of Undeath's passive to:
Reduces your damage taken and healing done by up to 30% based on your missing Health.

Although I prefer the option that you deal less healing with each vampire stage, for example:
Stage 1/2/3/4 Healing Done: -6%/-10%/-16%/-24%.
There is even logic to this from a lore. A vampire is neither alive nor dead, he needs to take away the life force of others in order to receive his own strength. So please tell me, how in such a situation can a vampire give this life force to others?

Erm no. He needs to take away life force? With which skill? The skill which doesn't do anything and is worthless in most scenarios in PvP and worthless in all scenarios in PvE? Lore-wise they'd have more magicka regen as they're usually masters of the arcane and actually be stronger depends on which stage they're at. Not be more worthless.

Don't be so strict, this is just a balance suggestion.

IAVITNI · October 2023

@MashmalloMan

Good points.

The idea behind major breach is that it’s a minor inconvenience meaning undeath can be nuked to oblivion and still be fair. It’s also 1 less unique debuff to track.

Not against the unique debuff after taking fire damage. Either works.

I will say that I dislike (I don’t necessarily disagree) with tying vamp passive effectiveness to skills slotted. I do think there’s a better approach.

Vamp and ww are distinct as they are and make sense thematically (ignoring actually combat/balance effectiveness).

Werewolf’s *should* be absolute beasts when they are transformed but weaker than vampires when not transformed. Meanwhile, vampires should have a kiss-curse that results in them being stronger situationally.

Right now, this is how they work.

Ww could use better passives when not in ww form. Weakness to poison could be minor breach when not transformed and major when in ww form. Ww has a whole list of problems though that prevent it from being balanced. That’s another thread.

Anyways, back from the tangent lmao

I guess what I had in mind is that vampires get major breach from fire but get minor or major protection when low.

Keep the cost increase (perhaps rescale it) but I feel like possible 100% uptime on Major Breach for low uptime on Protection is a fair trade but also not mandatory as they can come from other sources

Panderbander · October 2023

IAVITNI wrote: »

Werewolf’s *should* be absolute beasts when they are transformed but weaker than vampires in general. Meanwhile, vampires should have a kiss-curse that results in them being stronger situationally.

In what world does it make sense for a hulking manbeast to be weaker than something that gets a sunburn the moment the clouds get too thin? Just, why?

Ww could use better passives when not in ww form. Weakness to poison could be minor breach when not transformed and major when in ww form. Ww has a whole list of problems though that prevent it from being balanced. That’s another thread.

Werewolf already has no access to Minor Resolve and had it's unique armor taken away long ago now. Beyond that, what even is the point of giving a werewolf Major Resolve if you're going to immediately Major Breach it away? It legitimately has the lowest potential armor and survivability in the game now. The poison weakness needs straight up removed or we need access to Minor Resolve natively.

Don't include werewolf in this, it is already dead and buried without additional nerfs, especially when vampire is a literal requirement to play in PvP because of how stupid strong its passives are with effectively no downside.

IAVITNI · October 2023

@Panderbander could have worded that better.

When a ww isn’t transformed, it should be weaker than a vampire. That’s what I meant by “in general”.

As for the poison part, again, as far as Major Breach goes, it’s virtually always applied in PvP anyways. This is technically a buff in PvP vs any properly built opponent that uses poison and has literally 0 impact vs opponents who do not.

If the opponent has no source of breach in their build or group, you can likely beat them from skill gap alone.

I did mention that ww had a lot of balance issues and needs a adjustments. Honestly, perma- werewolf is difficult to balance. There aren’t a lot of levers to pull one a 1 bar build for balance. Its a design flaw that no amount of number adjusting will resolve

TX12001rwb17_ESO · October 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Werewolf’s *should* be absolute beasts when they are transformed but weaker than vampires in general. Meanwhile, vampires should have a kiss-curse that results in them being stronger situationally.

In what world does it make sense for a hulking manbeast to be weaker than something that gets a sunburn the moment the clouds get too thin? Just, why?

Ww could use better passives when not in ww form. Weakness to poison could be minor breach when not transformed and major when in ww form. Ww has a whole list of problems though that prevent it from being balanced. That’s another thread.

Werewolf already has no access to Minor Resolve and had it's unique armor taken away long ago now. Beyond that, what even is the point of giving a werewolf Major Resolve if you're going to immediately Major Breach it away? It legitimately has the lowest potential armor and survivability in the game now. The poison weakness needs straight up removed or we need access to Minor Resolve natively.

Don't include werewolf in this, it is already dead and buried without additional nerfs, especially when vampire is a literal requirement to play in PvP because of how stupid strong its passives are with effectively no downside.

Except the bloodline the player vampire belongs to is not harmed by sunlight, here lies the difference, you can choose to be a regular Werewolf no different to any Werewolf you encounter in the wild versus being a Vampire of the most powerful bloodline that exists, of course the Vampire will be stronger.

Panderbander · October 2023

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Werewolf’s *should* be absolute beasts when they are transformed but weaker than vampires in general. Meanwhile, vampires should have a kiss-curse that results in them being stronger situationally.

In what world does it make sense for a hulking manbeast to be weaker than something that gets a sunburn the moment the clouds get too thin? Just, why?

Ww could use better passives when not in ww form. Weakness to poison could be minor breach when not transformed and major when in ww form. Ww has a whole list of problems though that prevent it from being balanced. That’s another thread.

Werewolf already has no access to Minor Resolve and had it's unique armor taken away long ago now. Beyond that, what even is the point of giving a werewolf Major Resolve if you're going to immediately Major Breach it away? It legitimately has the lowest potential armor and survivability in the game now. The poison weakness needs straight up removed or we need access to Minor Resolve natively.

Don't include werewolf in this, it is already dead and buried without additional nerfs, especially when vampire is a literal requirement to play in PvP because of how stupid strong its passives are with effectively no downside.

Except the bloodline the player vampire belongs to is not harmed by sunlight, here lies the difference, you can choose to be a regular Werewolf no different to any Werewolf you encounter in the wild versus being a Vampire of the most powerful bloodline that exists, of course the Vampire will be stronger.

Lorewise you (the vestige) are inducted into Hircine's personal pack and transformed by him directly. At least know the lore before you call player werewolves no different from the ones you find in the wild.

Lore, however, should have no say in balancing a game.

xDeusEJRx · October 2023

Gonna have to say no to this idea, because from a PVP perspective. Despite the DK hate, Vampire undeath is still an issue and any counterplays to everyone being a vampire I'm ok with.

If DK is so much of an issue to you that you feel your vampire stage is inefficient, I think that's good.
There's too many vampires in PVP solely because of how strong undeath is and if it makes people question going with being a vampire, I'm fine with it. There needs to be more diverse builds in PVP anyways, and a large fraction of pvp go vampire just for free tankiness, so I say let them endure the negatives.

You can't solve one problem by creating another problem (DK's being strong in pvp to potentially making stage 3 undeath even better by weakening one of the main downsides to being a vampire)

autocookies · October 2023

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CameraBeardThePirate · October 2023

Your idea as proposed would be a net buff to vampires in the majority of content (at least when it comes to PvP). They do not need a buff.

In most fights in PvP, every player will have a pretty high uptime of Major Breach. Caltrops and EleSus are both incredibly common, as well as Wardens being prominent in the meta and applying Breach with an AoE ability.

If Vampire's fire vulnerability was changed to Breach, they'd go from having Breach almost all the time + taking more fire damage to just having Breach slightly more often than the average player. Vampires would be much more resilient than they are now.

Having DKs be stronger against vamps isn't inherently bad - it just so happens that DKs are at the top of the meta right now so it feels as though it's adding into the DK favoritism.

Undeath should be removed, and Vamps should be compensated in other ways in return.

madmidwestmark · October 2023

Just reduce undeath passive to 25%. Imo, that would be more balanced. Used to be that health regen was more helpful in pvp. With that being nerfed, being vamp is less of a drawback. Or make the passive flat. Have it scale per stage 2%/4%/6%/8%.