Soul Cleaver 9.2.3

Vaqual · October 2023

You took the fun out of this set. It was strong and had a tradeoff. This change was absolutely unnecessary. It made ulting a strategic decision. I was a big fan, but taking an almost 50 % hit to the modifiers (except sustain) is just too much. You still have time to undo this. This is really horrible and unengaging now.
And come on, it was not complicated. Is it in reality because you coulnd't get the ult to work?

I really should not have gotten my hopes up for this PTS cycle. What a rookie mistake.

And about this "normal play patterns" thing: Is this a joke? Are you introducing sets for us to provide variety or for us to play the same thing with different labels?

Lykeion · October 2023

I've seen enough threads complaining about the original version of class sets being so 'strategic' and hard to use if not useless. I think it's a good thing they make it plain.

Vaqual · October 2023

Plain sets are already in the game. Without the tradeoff mechanic this is just barely different from slotting a WD/SD set (less benefit for siphoning skills, but applies also to other abilities). And that mechanic of course has to be justified with enough circumstancial power.

...but at least the guy who wanted it for bombing will be happy. Simple set for simple applications I guess.

Prionyx · October 2023

This is an awesome change simply because it will affect ultimate now. Yes it is not unique as it was before but previous version of the set was kinda useless... Now it will actually be a good set and this is the only thing that is ACTUALLY important. What's the point of set with interesting mechanic if nobody is going to use it anyway? It would've been better if soulcleaver granted you more damage and healing increase but it's anyways better than what we previously had

Turtle_Bot · October 2023

If you're not happy with it, I'm sure sorcs and plars would gladly swap their sets for it.

chessalavakia_ESO · October 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If you're not happy with it, I'm sure sorcs and plars would gladly swap their sets for it.

That could actually work.

My Nightblades would likely have less issue procing the Monoliths with siphoning abilities than my sorcs do.

Plus, it's not like I'm going to ever enjoy running into anyone with Soul Cleaver in PvP as a NB set that impacts the ult.

Templar would be a bit more awkward of a swap due to the limited supply of DOTS in the Siphoning

acastanza_ESO · October 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If you're not happy with it, I'm sure sorcs and plars would gladly swap their sets for it.

1000% would take the current iteration of the NB set over Monolith of Snipped.

Vaqual · October 2023

Prionyx wrote: »

This is an awesome change simply because it will affect ultimate now. Yes it is not unique as it was before but previous version of the set was kinda useless... Now it will actually be a good set and this is the only thing that is ACTUALLY important. What's the point of set with interesting mechanic if nobody is going to use it anyway? It would've been better if soulcleaver granted you more damage and healing increase but it's anyways better than what we previously had

Sure, it will be better for you. You made very clear what you want from it. But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf. Buff one ult by 18 %, give up 50 % power. Cool deal. You have a very different outlook I suppose, and I can not say I respect your point of view really.

And you sorc guys, I get that you are frustrated since 27482 patches. You really have my sympathies for the set they made for you. But I somehow expected a bit better from you. You seem like dudes who get the game, who can judge what will add flavour and value to the game. These comments just feel cynical.

Prionyx · October 2023

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

This is an awesome change simply because it will affect ultimate now. Yes it is not unique as it was before but previous version of the set was kinda useless... Now it will actually be a good set and this is the only thing that is ACTUALLY important. What's the point of set with interesting mechanic if nobody is going to use it anyway? It would've been better if soulcleaver granted you more damage and healing increase but it's anyways better than what we previously had

Sure, it will be better for you. You made very clear what you want from it. But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf. Buff one ult by 18 %, give up 50 % power. Cool deal. You have a very different outlook I suppose, and I can not say I respect your point of view really.

And you sorc guys, I get that you are frustrated since 27482 patches. You really have my sympathies for the set they made for you. But I somehow expected a bit better from you. You seem like dudes who get the game, who can judge what will add flavour and value to the game.

"But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf" - just slot the siphoning ult then..? Currently It's the best NB ulti in pvp anyways(and nobody even thought about using this set in pve). Why would you need a set that doesn't affect any single skill in your burst combo... That's what soulcleaver used to be until zos have changed it yesterday

MashmalloMan · October 2023

I guarantee that 34% you're clinging on to would have been nerfed a patch or 2 after launch if it actually ever made it to live with or without an ult minigame..

No set in the game should buff anything by 30-50%. We should have learned this lesson from the Malacath meta, Daedric Prey, or the current Undeath passive situation.

This is the PTS, shouldn't get too attached to anything anyway. The set buffs an entire skill line with a flat 18% cost reduction, damage, and healing bonus.. unanmed, no minigame, active all the time. This is a really great set, albeit simple.

Vaqual wrote: »

But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf.

Not really.. Even if you don't want to use the Siphoning Ultimate, the original version of the set actively told you to never use Incap again. You know, your best, cheapest ult, which costs 70-120, meaning if you did use that ult you'd only ever get up to a bonus of 12%-20% after constantly having to rebuild it from 0 ult, on average you'd have less than the new sets flat 18%.

merpins · October 2023

Imo, the issue isn't the change exactly. The nerf to the numbers is the issue, removing the ult mechanic is fine, in fact, it's better this way...

However it still drains you for 1 ult every attack, defeating part of the purpose of this change, and the skills in this skill line are so weak that an 18% buff really won't make this set viable, or even fun imo. It needs to be a 25-30% damage buff, and the main spammable (siphoning strikes) needs a ~20% damage buff (with a heal nerf to compensate) for this set to see any use for a DPS. Healers might find this set really good, though.

Nebs · October 2023

I feel like the set could've been a lot more interesting if it actually further reduced the healing of Siphon abilities for more damage instead of sapping ult. It could've made the set a lot more interesting in PVE, and would even fit some of the Morphs that trade healing for damage.

StaticWave · October 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If you're not happy with it, I'm sure sorcs and plars would gladly swap their sets for it.

Imagine having an 18% dmg increase for overload and Streak. How awesome lol

Vaqual · October 2023

You can all argue as much as you want how you cool an 18 % boost is, but compared to my current build - even with 3 siphoning abilities slotted - this set is a net damage and healing loss (accounting for CP changes depending on set). Admittedly, the sustain is still nice, but I don't really need it. Taking off half of a sets power just isn't a small thing. But it's OK, I made my peace with it. I am no longer interested.

Prionyx wrote: »

"But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf" - just slot the siphoning ult then..? Currently It's the best NB ulti in pvp anyways(and nobody even thought about using this set in pve). Why would you need a set that doesn't affect any single skill in your burst combo... That's what soulcleaver used to be until zos have changed it yesterday

It's incredibly tiring to argue with you. We already had an entire thread on that topic. We do not have the same playstyle in mind, and the set was a net benefit for me before. Now it isn't. How is this so hard to get. Enjoy your set.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I guarantee that 34% you're clinging on to would have been nerfed a patch or 2 after launch if it actually ever made it to live with or without an ult minigame..

No set in the game should buff anything by 30-50%. We should have learned this lesson from the Malacath meta, Daedric Prey, or the current Undeath passive situation.

This is the PTS, shouldn't get too attached to anything anyway. The set buffs an entire skill line with a flat 18% cost reduction, damage, and healing bonus.. unanmed, no minigame, active all the time. This is a really great set, albeit simple.

Vaqual wrote: »

But for everyone not slotting the siphoning ult that was a fat nerf.

Not really.. Even if you don't want to use the Siphoning Ultimate, the original version of the set actively told you to never use Incap again. You know, your best, cheapest ult, which costs 70-120, meaning if you did use that ult you'd only ever get up to a bonus of 12%-20% after constantly having to rebuild it from 0 ult, on average you'd have less than the new sets flat 18%.

Most of this is correct, but at least it was something different. Just sad to see a fun thing turned into something bland. If the heal numbers were an issue they could have easily toned that down without halving the damage mod. Now the set is both boring and weaker than other options. I am pointing out how this is a lose-lose situation. And regarding ult values: That is exactly what made it intriguing. Getting some value back for situations were you delay your ult, without taking it away fully. I think conceptionally that was really satisfying. Now the mechanic is gone and the returns are anyway no longer justifying holding an ult.

Nebs wrote: »

I feel like the set could've been a lot more interesting if it actually further reduced the healing of Siphon abilities for more damage instead of sapping ult. It could've made the set a lot more interesting in PVE, and would even fit some of the Morphs that trade healing for damage.

Creative thought, but also not really my cup of tea.

DrNukenstein · October 2023

Why would anyone use either iteration of this 5 piece set, single or double barred when they could use:

-A defense, sustain, or support back bar
-Damage set of choice that buffs all damage, including the skills that really do damage instead of turning noodle skills into damage skills with a catch
-A proc set that will expand the damage ratio of your combo instead of...^
-Chassis build with 2 arena weapons (could be used in a chassis build, competes with way better options)
-Balorgh (less relevant in new iteration)
-That potion cooldown set, which could generate a lot of ult for nightblades on top of general potion utility
-Sentry, to really fill a niche

Really the best idea the set had going for it is a new way for nightblades to manage ult overflow (alternative to Balorgh). Now it doesn't even have that. It had/has potential for bombers, but that potential has to compete with other really strong bomb sets like DC, RoA, Vicious Death, Plaguebreak.

In short, even in it's best use case it gets like a B- at best.

Vaqual · October 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would anyone use either iteration of this 5 piece set, single or double barred when they could use:

-A defense, sustain, or support back bar
-Damage set of choice that buffs all damage, including the skills that really do damage instead of turning noodle skills into damage skills with a catch
-A proc set that will expand the damage ratio of your combo instead of...^
-Chassis build with 2 arena weapons (could be used in a chassis build, competes with way better options)
-Balorgh (less relevant in new iteration)
-That potion cooldown set, which could generate a lot of ult for nightblades on top of general potion utility
-Sentry, to really fill a niche

Really the best idea the set had going for it is a new way for nightblades to manage ult overflow (alternative to Balorgh). Now it doesn't even have that. It had/has potential for bombers, but that potential has to compete with other really strong bomb sets like DC, RoA, Vicious Death, Plaguebreak.

In short, even in it's best use case it gets like a B- at best.

because noodle skills gib me the cool power fantasy rp build

otherwise correct analysis of the sets value

Bushido2513 · October 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would anyone use either iteration of this 5 piece set, single or double barred when they could use:

-A defense, sustain, or support back bar
-Damage set of choice that buffs all damage, including the skills that really do damage instead of turning noodle skills into damage skills with a catch
-A proc set that will expand the damage ratio of your combo instead of...^
-Chassis build with 2 arena weapons (could be used in a chassis build, competes with way better options)
-Balorgh (less relevant in new iteration)
-That potion cooldown set, which could generate a lot of ult for nightblades on top of general potion utility
-Sentry, to really fill a niche

Really the best idea the set had going for it is a new way for nightblades to manage ult overflow (alternative to Balorgh). Now it doesn't even have that. It had/has potential for bombers, but that potential has to compete with other really strong bomb sets like DC, RoA, Vicious Death, Plaguebreak.

In short, even in it's best use case it gets like a B- at best.

Breakdowns like these are interesting to me because I wonder why people breakdown sets that just are what they are?

The game has just always been pretty much about slotting either the best in slot if that's what you're going for or anything else if you're just playing for fun.

A set like this is just made to give players something new to try but it has long been the history of this game that there will be the top tier sets and then just other sets. The devs don't really utilize all of the cooler ideas that a lot of us to imagine because that's just not the low hanging fruit.

Not saying I like that this is how it is but truthfully high power sets, items, classes, etc are just usually reserved for sales generation. These sets are just given for flavor and to generate/renew interest.

But I mean seriously when it comes to sets there's the best and the rest. By rest I don't mean that they are all garbage, just lower tier than the best.

Optimized players just won't go below a certain tier most times and those that like to just tinker with stuff or need some change have sets like this to try.

I did/didn't like the ult mini game because it was interesting but also borrowing from sorc. Borrowing isn't the worst thing but it's just more fun when the game is all around more balanced and working better.

merpins · October 2023

Vaqual wrote: »

It is actually a bit shocking to see the crowd cheering for the 0-depth option. I think, as a community, we deserve all the bad combat balancing we get. At least the devs won't have to break a sweat in the future if this is enough to pass as a class set.
On a related note, for all those who like straighforward and plain gameplay, where PvP and Multiplayer are optional, you should try this:

The mechanic was the antithesis to the playstyle of NB, a class that builds ult and uses ults a lot. I don't mind mechanics, but this mechanic doesn't really make sense for NB. A scaling damage increase based on the number of Siphoning abilities slotted would make more sense, but be kinda boring.

All-in-all, this set, even in its original iteration, suffers from the downsides of the class skill line it's trying to buff. Rather than using a set to buff a skill line to an appropriate line in the sand, just buff the skill line and give a set that is actually interesting. This set is a good example as to why I was nervous about class sets: I had a fear that Zos was going to make sets that buff a class up to where it should be, rather than just buffing the class. it's a bad precedent, and though I do like flat damage sets, the skill line the set is buffing is so undertuned for DPS that even a 18% buff to the whole line can't make the set good. Even the potential 32% it did before wasn't going to do that.

I'll give an idea of a real set that could have been interesting for this skill line. The 5 piece bonus could have been something weird and interesting. Try this: "Strife and its morphs change. They can no longer be cast, and become passive. While slotted on either bar, light and heavy attacks with non-channeled weapons are replaced with Strife or its morph, with a 30% cost reduction, and its Cost is Determined by your Highest Max Resource. Light attacks with this skill can be weaved. Fully charged heavy attacks with this skill do x extra damage."

just an example

Vaqual · October 2023

merpins wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is actually a bit shocking to see the crowd cheering for the 0-depth option. I think, as a community, we deserve all the bad combat balancing we get. At least the devs won't have to break a sweat in the future if this is enough to pass as a class set.
On a related note, for all those who like straighforward and plain gameplay, where PvP and Multiplayer are optional, you should try this:

The mechanic was the antithesis to the playstyle of NB, a class that builds ult and uses ults a lot. I don't mind mechanics, but this mechanic doesn't really make sense for NB. A scaling damage increase based on the number of Siphoning abilities slotted would make more sense, but be kinda boring.

Excuse me if I am repetitive, but this was exactly the appeal. To break out of the the god given playstyle restrcitions and to be rewarded for it. If you think nightblade has to be the class that uses ults, then how nice is it to have a set that offers an alternative to that. And how inconsequential is a set the expands on that, as there are tons of sets that help with ult centered playstyles already.

merpins · October 2023

Vaqual wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is actually a bit shocking to see the crowd cheering for the 0-depth option. I think, as a community, we deserve all the bad combat balancing we get. At least the devs won't have to break a sweat in the future if this is enough to pass as a class set.
On a related note, for all those who like straighforward and plain gameplay, where PvP and Multiplayer are optional, you should try this:

The mechanic was the antithesis to the playstyle of NB, a class that builds ult and uses ults a lot. I don't mind mechanics, but this mechanic doesn't really make sense for NB. A scaling damage increase based on the number of Siphoning abilities slotted would make more sense, but be kinda boring.

Excuse me if I am repetitive, but this was exactly the appeal. To break out of the the god given playstyle restrcitions and to be rewarded for it. If you think nightblade has to be the class that uses ults, then how nice is it to have a set that offers an alternative to that. And how inconsequential is a set the expands on that, as there are tons of sets that help with ult centered playstyles already.

Inconsequential is right. Either way, the set would have been dead on arrival. The skill line is just too weak to facilitate a set that gives % damage, unless it's something ridiculous like 50 or 60%. 32% basically made it on par with every other skill line... Except you didn't get to use any ults which lowers dps, and you had to sacrifice a 5 piece set to do it which would have just killed it. If it was a mythic, a 3 piece set, or a monster helm set, it might have been fine, but even THEN the numbers are and were too low.

Breaking out of playstyle restrictions is great... Just having a set that would make you use that skill line as your primary source of damage would do that though. This set won't accomplish that, since it's not good, before or after its change. The numbers just need to be too high for it to be decent, and locking you out of ults wasn't doing the set any favors.

Vaqual · October 2023

I would be hesitant to say it was too weak then, as we discussed in another thread I particularly valued "damage and healing" package quite a bit, but overall yours is a decent take.
The one ability that has an outstanding tooltip in that skill line, offering, may have benefited a bit too much from it, but overall these %-modifiers were nothing to be afraid of, given the low base power of the skill line. Stipulations for that could surely have been baked in.
But the result is as you say: Not worth it.

merpins · October 2023

Vaqual wrote: »

I would be hesitatant to say it was too weak then, as we discussed in another thread I particularly valued "damage and healing" package quite a bit, but overall yours is a decent take.
The one ability that has an outstanding tooltip in that skill line, offering, may have benefited a bit too much from it, but overall these %-modifiers were nothing to be afraid of, given the low base power of the skill line. Stipulations for that could surely have been baked in.
But the result is as you say: Not worth it.

It's too bad, too. Swallow Soul is my favorite ability in the game, but it got nerfed back in 2017 so I haven't used it as a main spammable since. I was hoping this set would make it worth it, but it just doesn't.

FoJul · October 2023

Lykeion wrote: »

I've seen enough threads complaining about the original version of class sets being so 'strategic' and hard to use if not useless. I think it's a good thing they make it plain.

This set was not complicated at all. You basically are holding your ultimate for more sustained damage…how is that so hard to think of? This gives you trigger discipline if you want to use a set like balorgh…so when you use your ult the power trade or is beneficial…especially if you pop a potion after balorgh….

That being said they took away 50% damage potential from the set. This set is just as dead as the other class sets before it even hits live. Unless they fix it…

The point someone said, “That makes the set no much more than a wd/sd set but it only affects siphoning skills” is true.

I was stupidly excited for this set because a long lost playstyle was actually going to be playable, and not “OP” . But now I’m just back to the Not gonna play cycle.

Ps. The patch notes drop on my birthday, so I was even more excited.