acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Not allowing resource towers to be destructible has enabled a super toxic gameplay style where small groups of speed-capped players will siege a keep until it flags from the top of a resource tower, then just run around the tower healing and LoSing, indefinitely keeping the specific keep flagged. They have no intention of actually playing the map objective, just in trolling.

Because of the nature of LoS desync, and overpowered nature of defensive sets currently, it takes significantly larger, coordinated, groups to deal with this. And then the tower farmers can instantly get up ride back and get back to it without having to do anything to reestablish their position.

The only reasonable way to deal with this is to make resource towers destructible again.
Additionally, reducing the speed cap while under the effect of battle spirit by 20% would be a significant improvement in counterplay against these groups that abuse LoS desync.

How will you destroy a tower if you own the resource?

How will you convince unorganized solos not to flip the flag for 1500 AP?

What if by the time you destroy the 3rd resource tower at the keep, they repaired the first one? Same player that goes out to put down camps will handle this easy task.

Remove them all together if you want, idc. Destroying them is not a solution to the problem. The combo of LoS, speed and heals has made clearing a tower harder than it ever was was previously.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Not allowing resource towers to be destructible has enabled a super toxic gameplay style where small groups of speed-capped players will siege a keep until it flags from the top of a resource tower, then just run around the tower healing and LoSing, indefinitely keeping the specific keep flagged. They have no intention of actually playing the map objective, just in trolling.

Because of the nature of LoS desync, and overpowered nature of defensive sets currently, it takes significantly larger, coordinated, groups to deal with this. And then the tower farmers can instantly get up ride back and get back to it without having to do anything to reestablish their position.

The only reasonable way to deal with this is to make resource towers destructible again.
Additionally, reducing the speed cap while under the effect of battle spirit by 20% would be a significant improvement in counterplay against these groups that abuse LoS desync.

How will you destroy a tower if you own the resource?

How will you convince unorganized solos not to flip the flag for 1500 AP?

What if by the time you destroy the 3rd resource tower at the keep, they repaired the first one? Same player that goes out to put down camps will handle this easy task.

Remove them all together if you want, idc. Destroying them is not a solution to the problem. The combo of LoS, speed and heals has made clearing a tower harder than it ever was was previously.

Destroying a tower isn't a perfect solution, but it is a mitigation and an additional impediment to their troll farming.
Sure, they can send one person to go repair the other towers, but that is a person that is not running around the tower cross healing, or stealthed to get rezes, and it also forces them to spend additional time repairing the tower, during which they are vulnerable especially since they'd have to first flip the resource before repairing the tower, and "siege the tower first before flipping the flag" becomes viable counterplay.

Although considering the nature of the resource "game" maybe it makes more sense to allow you to siege both allied and enemy towers just like how anyone can siege down a milegate or bridge, then you can either siege the resource then flip the flag, or flip the flag then siege the resource depending on what makes more sense tactically.

I would much rather mechanics get restored to how they were intended to work (destructible towers) when that restoration would improve the gameplay experience, than remove the mechanic altogether.

tincanman wrote: »

Do people still follow into towers?

They have to if its the only way to get the keep unflagged and its been troll locked for a solid half hour blocking transitus and preventing people from getting to important fights.

My experiences must be different then, because unless I'm actively sieging the keep, it will become unflagged. Back when I still small scaled, my group would take over a resource and have 1 person on 3rd floor sieging the nearest keep wall while others stay on 1st floor to fight incoming opponents. As long as we have 1 person constantly sieging, the keep will stay flagged. This was how we managed to create our own fights anywhere we go.

We're AD and we would travel all the way up north to flag the inner keeps, far away from the action near the center. Sometimes, 20+ people would show up because they think a zerg's about to take the keep but in reality it was just our 4 man lol. Small groups can do wonders as a distraction.

As for LoSing, I don't think it's a big deal. Everyone can LoS, and if you complain about LoSing then it's very likely that you are zerging someone down too often and never had to rely on LoS for your survival. Nothing wrong with that, but until you're in the shoes of the same people you're zerging down, then you won't understand why LoS is ok.

AstroST wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

As for LoSing, I don't think it's a big deal. Everyone can LoS, and if you complain about LoSing then it's very likely that you are

Yeah, such fun gameplay chasing someone that goes up and down a tower, top ESO PvP experience.

If they decide to chase someone around a tower then they can't really complain lol. I've seen many people stop chasing me as soon as I get to LoS. On the other hand, I've also been mercilessly chased for almost half the distance between Faregyl and Roebeck lol.

Some people actually hate whispered me for LoSing too much. I mean...what am I supposed to do against 10+ people lol?

I get both sides of this argument. I myself find myself sieging keeps from resources very often, but that's just because campaigns have far too much dead air (playstation player issue), and even with population bars being high, there might be a single keep flagged.

So I will flag a keep just to initiate a fight to actively engage in. I don't want to zerg surf or be forced to join a zerg fight for pvp'ing, but outside of Volendrung's appearance, there's no guarantee that fights will keep kicking off and it often leads to dead air where nothing at all happens. Which again, is likely just an issue with the population of Playstation.

As for the opposing faction, I can see it being really annoying especially if multiple groups do this to multiple keeps. It hinders map progress and can tie up your zergs to deal with each keep to get the map under control.

OBJnoob wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Wait... You mean people, not just ballgroups, farm troll heal LOS and win outnumbered fights?

They must be VERY good players. I wonder how many stacks of Echoing Vigor they have on them.

<_< >_>

They really are not, they run nothing but defensive sets with their only damage coming from ult dumps and oil they put up on the top floor. As soon as the tower is removed from the equation they die basically instantly. Only they typically have a dedicated rez-bot who hides the second they're engaged.
They're being completely carried by LoS giving them time for their defensive set cooldowns to expire while they spam heals (almost always overpowered warden nonsense that independently needs to be nerfed).
The game was designed with these towers originally being destructible, this needs to be reenabled to restore the intended gameplay - being able to destroy the towers so the groups hiding in them can be fought on equal footing.
Not that it isn't always these small scale groups that do this - ballgroups absolutely do it to and it is just as abusive.

Yeah. It was just a joke in reference to another topic.

But seriously... Don't you ever feel compelled to just let people have their fun? Does every mechanic that someone finds a good use for need to be described as "broken" and be fixed?

It's going to be a very boring game if some of you get your way. Elder Duels Online. Naked, I expect.

Agreed and well said. I hate it when tower trolls appear but that's part of being in an online game instead of Skyrim.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Wait... You mean people, not just ballgroups, farm troll heal LOS and win outnumbered fights?

They must be VERY good players. I wonder how many stacks of Echoing Vigor they have on them.

<_< >_>

They really are not, they run nothing but defensive sets with their only damage coming from ult dumps and oil they put up on the top floor. As soon as the tower is removed from the equation they die basically instantly. Only they typically have a dedicated rez-bot who hides the second they're engaged.
They're being completely carried by LoS giving them time for their defensive set cooldowns to expire while they spam heals (almost always overpowered warden nonsense that independently needs to be nerfed).
The game was designed with these towers originally being destructible, this needs to be reenabled to restore the intended gameplay - being able to destroy the towers so the groups hiding in them can be fought on equal footing.
Not that it isn't always these small scale groups that do this - ballgroups absolutely do it to and it is just as abusive.

Yeah. It was just a joke in reference to another topic.

But seriously... Don't you ever feel compelled to just let people have their fun? Does every mechanic that someone finds a good use for need to be described as "broken" and be fixed?

It's going to be a very boring game if some of you get your way. Elder Duels Online. Naked, I expect.

Agreed and well said. I hate it when tower trolls appear but that's part of being in an online game instead of Skyrim.

Thats why I'm not asking for it to be removed altogether, simply restored to how the original game developers originally intended with the towers destructible so you can actually have viable counterplay here. Right now the "best" "counterplay" is "don't engage at all", that is absurd.

it used to be worse, half the time you couldnt kill the tower because people would capture it and you cant dmg your own factions structures

not to mention those also had doors which were even more trolly than it was now

even back then the best option was to "not engage" with the tower trolls, they have literally been in the game since launch

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

to be honest, that is never what i see happen in zone chat most of the time lol

the times i see zone chat about someone in a tower, most people are like "ignore them, its troll <player name>"

the only time anyone does anything is if the troll actually starts to flag the keep, and in most cases i still ignore the people in the tower unless theres nothing happening on the map

i agree that in "big picture" terms this is a tactic to help shift the battlefield, but i do not agree that the act itself is not trolling, it is 100% trolling as its basically just abusing LoS and high defense builds instead of actively fighting people in an open field

tower fights are very little actual fighting, its like 90% running and 10% burst opportunity

I don’t want to be rude or toxic but it sounds like you are one of the people zerging down small scalers lol. If you had actually played outnumbered you would understand how crucial it is to use LoS.

Have you ever thought that the people in zone chat claiming those small scalers are “trolls”, were once farmed by other small scalers and got salty?

People like to paint a negative light on something they don’t like. I’m an AD and have multiple friends on other factions, and sometimes when I’m fighting severely outnumbered and still surviving for a while, I would receive whispers from my friends in same faction as my opponent saying that their zone chat mentions my group a lot (and not in a positive way either).

Does that mean we’re trolling when we farm 10+ blues? No, we aren’t. Trolling would be us taking a scroll and dumping it in the water. Fighting outnumbered requires LoS, and until you are in the shoes of small scalers, you won’t understand.

For example, this is a clip of my 5 man team fighting 20+ EPs.

https://youtu.be/2OuhgiQCqjM?si=kQkwYDMgoJ8ogpLC

Do you honestly think we’re going to sit in the open field and fight 5v20 with our massively smaller group size and no healer? Lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

to be honest, that is never what i see happen in zone chat most of the time lol

the times i see zone chat about someone in a tower, most people are like "ignore them, its troll <player name>"

the only time anyone does anything is if the troll actually starts to flag the keep, and in most cases i still ignore the people in the tower unless theres nothing happening on the map

i agree that in "big picture" terms this is a tactic to help shift the battlefield, but i do not agree that the act itself is not trolling, it is 100% trolling as its basically just abusing LoS and high defense builds instead of actively fighting people in an open field

tower fights are very little actual fighting, its like 90% running and 10% burst opportunity

I don’t want to be rude or toxic but it sounds like you are one of the people zerging down small scalers lol. If you had actually played outnumbered you would understand how crucial it is to use LoS.

Have you ever thought that the people in zone chat claiming those small scalers are “trolls”, were once farmed by other small scalers and got salty?

People like to paint a negative light on something they don’t like. I’m an AD and have multiple friends on other factions, and sometimes when I’m fighting severely outnumbered and still surviving for a while, I would receive whispers from my friends in same faction as my opponent saying that their zone chat mentions my group a lot (and not in a positive way either).

Does that mean we’re trolling when we farm 10+ blues? No, we aren’t. Trolling would be us taking a scroll and dumping it in the water. Fighting outnumbered requires LoS, and until you are in the shoes of small scalers, you won’t understand.

For example, this is a clip of my 5 man team fighting 20+ EPs.

https://youtu.be/2OuhgiQCqjM?si=kQkwYDMgoJ8ogpLC

Do you honestly think we’re going to sit in the open field and fight 5v20 with our massively smaller group size and no healer? Lol

i usually run solo, but its a mix of zerg surfing for easy AP, or going off capping resources on my own depending on whats going on

ive 1v1 against someone who all they tried to do was run into the tower, and i refused to follow them in there, they had problems killing me out in the open field and i almost killed them a few times but then they would run back into the tower (they did eventually kill me and then called me toxic for not chasing them into the tower)

i personally see running as cowardly, i would rather die fighting and see how many i can take with me

i have also seen a group of 5 survive in an open field against 10-20, because they are organized coordinated group vs an uncoordinated zerg

i dont enjoy running around a tower for 20 min chasing someone who refuses to fight, so therefore it is trolly to me, and i will do my best to avoid it as much as possible unless there is absolutely nothing else going on in the map

have you ever thought that small scalers "get zerged down" because people get frustrated by the playstyle and the only way they know how to handle you is overwhelming force? lol

as a solo player, i can easily choose to ignore tower farmers and go do literally anything else, there are times i will even try to siege a keep solo if the map is slow enough, if anyone shows up i will defend myself and attempt to fight, if i lose, then they were a better player than me

if i do end up fighting someone who just runs around the tower, i will not follow period, if im solo, i will range attack them but i wont follow, if there are other allies nearby i will still not follow, i will use siege at that point to help kill them faster

(and i also am AD, i dont have characters of other factions, mostly out of habit from way back in the early days when factions mattered in pve too) i normally only hear complaints about red or blue "tower trolls", i never hear any remarks usually about the yellow ones lol

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Now if only you small-scalers could view ballgroups the same way as you view yourselves, maybe we could get some fair discussions.

That'd be the day they will realize that they are also ballgroup basically.