Resource Towers Enabling Super Toxic Gameplay

TybaltKaine

I mean, fast tanks aren't exactly new. Adept Rider changes a few years back gave a set with decent armor bonuses and 100% uptime on Major Expedition as a craftable. That's before accounting for class skills and such, and you don't need to jump through the Psijic hoops to get it.

It stinks, but this has been a playstyle for quite a while now.

TheMightyRevan

I think zerging is trolling, it should be bannable

OBJnoob

Top floor of a keep..m res

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Now if only you small-scalers could view ballgroups the same way as you view yourselves, maybe we could get some fair discussions.

Kind of have a point here as I see a lot of ball groups run to the nearest resource tower if siege keeps them from getting in the keep.

Thank you.

I don't think the place where it happens is really what matters. It can be the 3rd floor of a castle, a resource tower, a tree, or a cliffside.

The parallel I draw between what ballgroups do and what those two quoted posts so vividly describe is this:
1) Nobody thinks what they're doing is trolling.
2) Everybody feels justified to use "broken" mechanics when they see fit.

I don't really have a problem with heal stacking or excessive LOSing. When it's used against me I definitely feel a certain way... But I don't let that emotion influence my balance requests.

If I had to pick one to hate most though it'd probably be excessive LOSing.

It doesn't strike me as "broken" "exploitative" or "trolly" at all that a group of 12 people would/could enjoy the healing power of a solo player x12. I do understand that the lag this produces IS "broken" but it could only be "exploitative" if it were on purpose. Which I doubt very much it is. Nobody likes lag. The ballgroups have lag too. Running around a tree however... That seems a little more on purpose to me. I think most of these people know very well that positional desync and lag assist them in their LOS and basically render the vast majority of their enemy's actions null and void. Without any negative effects for themselves.

It speaks volumes on the toxicity of our veteran players that so much hate would be given from style A to style B, or vice versa.

And it's only egocentrism that tells us what we do is skill and what they do is exploiting. I'm sure heal stacking takes some skill. And I'm even more sure that prolonged LOSing of multiple enemies takes skill. But neither of them take THE skill that people claim to hold in such high regard.

OBJnoob

I think I should add, real quick, that I was speaking in generalities and not meaning to accuse either of the quoted of anything. I don't play with them, they both seem very knowledgeable, and honestly I just appreciate their accurate description of what "it takes" most of the time.

The game can be cheesy sometimes... But we all have that brand we like. Brand loyalty is strong.

StaticWave

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Now if only you small-scalers could view ballgroups the same way as you view yourselves, maybe we could get some fair discussions.

That'd be the day they will realize that they are also ballgroup basically.

It depends on how the small scale group is formed.

Some small scale groups consist of several DPS/Off-healer and a dedicated Healer. These groups are essentially mini ball groups as their movement is basically the same as a large ball group. An example would be Animosity on PC NA.

However, some small scale groups only consist of all DPS players. These groups don’t move like a ball group, but instead spread out and regroup at specific locations to coordinate an ulti bomb, then spread out again. The point of this is to thin out the herd to reduce pressure on any given player. These groups consist of mostly 1vXers with solo builds, so they don’t need to group up as much because they already have very little cross-healing in the first place and can handle their own pretty well. My group is an example of this type.

The 1st group type is usually what gets the most complaint, especially if we start scaling group size. With more players, these groups can add more dedicated healers, switch to all group heals, and become the ball group everyone complains about. 2nd group type has nothing to do with it lol. I’m sure ppl wouldn’t complain if a 12 man DPS group scatters around a tower with basically no cross healing, as it’s a lot easier to kill them.

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

Top floor of a keep..m res

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Now if only you small-scalers could view ballgroups the same way as you view yourselves, maybe we could get some fair discussions.

Kind of have a point here as I see a lot of ball groups run to the nearest resource tower if siege keeps them from getting in the keep.

Thank you.

I don't think the place where it happens is really what matters. It can be the 3rd floor of a castle, a resource tower, a tree, or a cliffside.

The parallel I draw between what ballgroups do and what those two quoted posts so vividly describe is this:
1) Nobody thinks what they're doing is trolling.
2) Everybody feels justified to use "broken" mechanics when they see fit.

I don't really have a problem with heal stacking or excessive LOSing. When it's used against me I definitely feel a certain way... But I don't let that emotion influence my balance requests.

If I had to pick one to hate most though it'd probably be excessive LOSing.

It doesn't strike me as "broken" "exploitative" or "trolly" at all that a group of 12 people would/could enjoy the healing power of a solo player x12. I do understand that the lag this produces IS "broken" but it could only be "exploitative" if it were on purpose. Which I doubt very much it is. Nobody likes lag. The ballgroups have lag too. Running around a tree however... That seems a little more on purpose to me. I think most of these people know very well that positional desync and lag assist them in their LOS and basically render the vast majority of their enemy's actions null and void. Without any negative effects for themselves.

It speaks volumes on the toxicity of our veteran players that so much hate would be given from style A to style B, or vice versa.

And it's only egocentrism that tells us what we do is skill and what they do is exploiting. I'm sure heal stacking takes some skill. And I'm even more sure that prolonged LOSing of multiple enemies takes skill. But neither of them take THE skill that people claim to hold in such high regard.

Well, I'm glad you appreciate the similarities; but that's no what the vast majority of players go into Cyrodiil want to do. Run around los waiting for burst Windows, stacking HOTs or not. That's what both ball groups and current small scale want as accepted gameplay.

As long as ZOS keeps that as prominent as it is, the more the community will dwindle

Really I'm surprised my first comment was appreciated. For ball group players to be happy that they do the same as small scalers and make use of LOS while supposedly being the pinnacle of coordination fighting randoms? At least the small scalers are typically vastly outnumbered when they do it

OBJnoob

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Top floor of a keep..m res

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them “tower trolls”, as that’s putting a negative light on their activity and undermines the importance of small-scaling.

Some of you may think it’s trolly to run around towers, but I disagree and I will provide an example.

Let’s say an AD 2-man team captures the farm at Roebeck which belongs to DC. 1-2 DC show up and try to retake it. The AD team repeatedly sends them back to spawn. What’s going to happen eventually is those DC will call for help in zone chat. More DC show up, and suddenly the AD team has to fight 5,6, or even 10 people.

This 2-man team will now have to run around towers because they are outnumbered, and it will be harder for their opponents to kill. But here’s the thing, these ADs are also pulling away 5,6, or even 10 people from DC. Those DC could have been helping their faction take over a keep or a scroll, but instead they are getting farmed and triggered by 2 people running around towers.

Like I said, small-scaling is very important even if it doesn’t look like so. When I used to small scale with my 4 man team, we would be fighting 15+ people near their inner keeps. Keep in mind, most of the action took place around the center keeps. Those 15+ people could have been fighting my faction around the center keeps, but instead they had to waste their time with our 4 man. We were doing all the things people complained about, like LoSing around towers or trees or whatever we could find, and killing some people in the process. A good small scale group can do wonders for their faction even if it’s not playing objectives, because they are acting as a distraction.

This.

Most tower "trolls" aren't running around towers to troll people - they're doing it because they're outnumbered and the most viable way to fight outnumbered is to use line of sight. That's really all there is to it.

Do you expect these small scale groups to just sit there and face tank a zerg? It's not gonna happen.

Now if only you small-scalers could view ballgroups the same way as you view yourselves, maybe we could get some fair discussions.

Kind of have a point here as I see a lot of ball groups run to the nearest resource tower if siege keeps them from getting in the keep.

Thank you.

I don't think the place where it happens is really what matters. It can be the 3rd floor of a castle, a resource tower, a tree, or a cliffside.

The parallel I draw between what ballgroups do and what those two quoted posts so vividly describe is this:
1) Nobody thinks what they're doing is trolling.
2) Everybody feels justified to use "broken" mechanics when they see fit.

I don't really have a problem with heal stacking or excessive LOSing. When it's used against me I definitely feel a certain way... But I don't let that emotion influence my balance requests.

If I had to pick one to hate most though it'd probably be excessive LOSing.

It doesn't strike me as "broken" "exploitative" or "trolly" at all that a group of 12 people would/could enjoy the healing power of a solo player x12. I do understand that the lag this produces IS "broken" but it could only be "exploitative" if it were on purpose. Which I doubt very much it is. Nobody likes lag. The ballgroups have lag too. Running around a tree however... That seems a little more on purpose to me. I think most of these people know very well that positional desync and lag assist them in their LOS and basically render the vast majority of their enemy's actions null and void. Without any negative effects for themselves.

It speaks volumes on the toxicity of our veteran players that so much hate would be given from style A to style B, or vice versa.

And it's only egocentrism that tells us what we do is skill and what they do is exploiting. I'm sure heal stacking takes some skill. And I'm even more sure that prolonged LOSing of multiple enemies takes skill. But neither of them take THE skill that people claim to hold in such high regard.

Well, I'm glad you appreciate the similarities; but that's no what the vast majority of players go into Cyrodiil want to do. Run around los waiting for burst Windows, stacking HOTs or not. That's what both ball groups and current small scale want as accepted gameplay.

As long as ZOS keeps that as prominent as it is, the more the community will dwindle

Really I'm surprised my first comment was appreciated. For ball group players to be happy that they do the same as small scalers and make use of LOS while supposedly being the pinnacle of coordination fighting randoms? At least the small scalers are typically vastly outnumbered when they do it

You said I had a point and that is what I appreciated. I'm not sure you said much else at the time.

Now you've said some things... And I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or if you're telling your own observations.

I wasn't trying to say ballgroups heal stack and LOS I was kinda saying small-scalers do one and ballgroups do the other.

Also, I am talking about outnumbered situations for the ballgroups. Surely nobody, in any of these discussions, is complaining that 12 beat 5? More that the 12 simultaneously took on three 4s, a 10, a hand full of solos, and like the guys over there shooting siege.

I would agree that ballgroups like to "keep it moving" but it seems different than LOSing to me.

Tigor

Resource fights can be great and hiding in the tower is not really possible as the doors are missing, and then running around is the last option to survive from an outnumbered situation. The annoying part in this is the delay and orientation loss if players are playing as slimy eels in a bucket. If it takes too long and one decides to move on, there is always the combat bug that prevents mounting. So then I'm still stuck. Should we then structurally avoid resources if there is an enemy? Could be. If particular eels often are found in towers then certainly.

finehair

Destroyable resource towers should come back. Because it requires a lot of sieges to take one down so the tower runners have enough time to think of a counter before collapse, also the first floor still holds the small entryway if the small-scalers want to hold.

Destroyable top floor of keeps, is a big no no. While it was fun to break it and keep the castle tagged for a long time, there was no good counter play to it as it was blocking the only path to the annoying guys. If it's going to be implemented, there should be some narrow paths leading to top floor, like some wood planks on other sides so few people can pass, but still risky as you may get knocked down to the bottom floor.

NordSwordnBoard

I agree tower trolls are no fun,

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Not allowing resource towers to be destructible has enabled a super toxic gameplay style where small groups of speed-capped players will siege a keep until it flags from the top of a resource tower, then just run around the tower healing and LoSing, indefinitely keeping the specific keep flagged. They have no intention of actually playing the map objective, just in trolling.

Because of the nature of LoS desync, and overpowered nature of defensive sets currently, it takes significantly larger, coordinated, groups to deal with this. And then the tower farmers can instantly get up ride back and get back to it without having to do anything to reestablish their position.

The only reasonable way to deal with this is to make resource towers destructible again.
Additionally, reducing the speed cap while under the effect of battle spirit by 20% would be a significant improvement in counterplay against these groups that abuse LoS desync.

How will you destroy a tower if you own the resource?

How will you convince unorganized solos not to flip the flag for 1500 AP?

What if by the time you destroy the 3rd resource tower at the keep, they repaired the first one? Same player that goes out to put down camps will handle this easy task.

Remove them all together if you want, idc. Destroying them is not a solution to the problem. The combo of LoS, speed and heals has made clearing a tower harder than it ever was was previously.

Destroying a tower isn't a perfect solution, but it is a mitigation and an additional impediment to their troll farming.
Sure, they can send one person to go repair the other towers, but that is a person that is not running around the tower cross healing, or stealthed to get rezes, and it also forces them to spend additional time repairing the tower, during which they are vulnerable especially since they'd have to first flip the resource before repairing the tower, and "siege the tower first before flipping the flag" becomes viable counterplay.

Although considering the nature of the resource "game" maybe it makes more sense to allow you to siege both allied and enemy towers just like how anyone can siege down a milegate or bridge, then you can either siege the resource then flip the flag, or flip the flag then siege the resource depending on what makes more sense tactically.

I would much rather mechanics get restored to how they were intended to work (destructible towers) when that restoration would improve the gameplay experience, than remove the mechanic altogether.

What about towers attached to keep walls? I find the LoS in those to be worse as the run v xer has so much more space as well as boxes and corridors etc.

"Siege the tower first" was practiced before and failed. It resulted in toxic chats between those who want 1500 ap and flip it before you can destroy the tower.

Also, if there's no action and I want AP, I'm repairing anything I can. So your own alliance will enable them to continue. You can't stop them by destroying the towers. The farmer's strategy was to leave the resource flag so you can't destroy the tower as it is friendly to you. Idk how both teams could damage, but not repair the same building.

I've seen all this play out years ago. You don't offer anything new to the system they intentionally removed because it didn't work.

This is patently false, it was removed because the tower doors created exploitable load screens. The doors were not necessary and should have been the only part of the system that was removed.

Alliance War
General

Cyrodiil now scales to CP160!
The carpenters of Cyrodiil are on strike, and Towers no longer have doors.
Adjusted many areas around towers and keeps to cut down on gap closer "keep jumping".
The most noticeable changes are the stairs between Aleswell Farm and Aleswell Keep.

Post #9
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294849/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-6-4-update-12-one-tamriel

Says nothing about the towers being destroyed when they removed doors. It either happened before or after, but they were not related in the way you think.

At this point, F it. I'll be standing there laughing at all the zerglings fighting over who's fault it was for allowing the farmers to stay in their barn and farm potatoes. I just don't want to REINTRODUCE toxicity to PvP, we really don't need more. The amount of Alliance in-fighting displayed during destroy able towers was so stupid.

ps Can't wait to go into a tower to dislodge the farmers with a small group. Then get the tower broken out from under my feet right before we execute the healer.

xFocused

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

Necrotech_Master

xFocused wrote: »

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

if they make the resource towers destructible, they need to be set up like bridges and milegates that can be damaged by any faction

because before if you cap the resource, you cant destroy the tower anyway, thus not really solving the problem, so if they make it destructible, it needs to be by any faction regardless who controls the resource

TechMaybeHic

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

if they make the resource towers destructible, they need to be set up like bridges and milegates that can be damaged by any faction

because before if you cap the resource, you cant destroy the tower anyway, thus not really solving the problem, so if they make it destructible, it needs to be by any faction regardless who controls the resource

I'd just assume take them out. Why repair them? Just get reduce trolly behavior

Then leave the resource upgrades that already exist for keeps and add the corresponding part of the keep the resource buffs, takes half as much damage from siege while the owner of the keep, owns the resource. Give small man a purpose away from the crowd yet still pushing objectives. And then, while I feel "PvDoor" serves a good purpose to not just crash into faction stacks and makes a stack chose to over commit or not; the people doing the PvDoor would need to decide between longer keep flag, or resource getting lit. Small scalers could also then be more diversionary.

Then maybe farm ownerships double Keep NPC negate rates, maybe make them super negates that block stam abilities as well as magicka, and add sentry NPCs that pop out stealth enemies.

NordSwordnBoard

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

if they make the resource towers destructible, they need to be set up like bridges and milegates that can be damaged by any faction

because before if you cap the resource, you cant destroy the tower anyway, thus not really solving the problem, so if they make it destructible, it needs to be by any faction regardless who controls the resource

Just remove towers, put the mage guard in a lifeguard chair. The end result is just a bunch of broken towers that will be sieged down to rubble on sight out of fear of trolls.

So why even have them if the end result is to make them unavailable?

edit - the quotes got weird

Necrotech_Master

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

if they make the resource towers destructible, they need to be set up like bridges and milegates that can be damaged by any faction

because before if you cap the resource, you cant destroy the tower anyway, thus not really solving the problem, so if they make it destructible, it needs to be by any faction regardless who controls the resource

Just remove towers, put the mage guard in a lifeguard chair. The end result is just a bunch of broken towers that will be sieged down to rubble on sight out of fear of trolls.

So why even have them if the end result is to make them unavailable?

edit - the quotes got weird

i dont really see the towers all being sieged down immediately, only when people start running around the tower for 10+ minutes, if they really are outnumbered, they will likely die before the tower is destroyed

but if they removed the tower entirely too, it wouldnt bother me in the least lol

acastanza_ESO

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Just make resource towers destructable again, problem solved. It's kinda silly that keeps, outposts and bridges can be destroyed but not resource towers?

if they make the resource towers destructible, they need to be set up like bridges and milegates that can be damaged by any faction

because before if you cap the resource, you cant destroy the tower anyway, thus not really solving the problem, so if they make it destructible, it needs to be by any faction regardless who controls the resource

Just remove towers, put the mage guard in a lifeguard chair. The end result is just a bunch of broken towers that will be sieged down to rubble on sight out of fear of trolls.

So why even have them if the end result is to make them unavailable?

edit - the quotes got weird

i dont really see the towers all being sieged down immediately, only when people start running around the tower for 10+ minutes, if they really are outnumbered, they will likely die before the tower is destroyed

but if they removed the tower entirely too, it wouldnt bother me in the least lol

Also remember that, even though it isn't actively used anymore, resources actually have improvement levels. Destroying the tower on a resource for a keep your faction owns could, and should, reduce the resource improvement level so you don't get the full benefits if the tower you control has been destroyed. The game is full of opportunities for counterplay and incentives that just aren't being taken advantage of.