Too much negativity in the forums.

pklemming

I am more annoyed by the incredibly stupid way the PTE fix was implemented. It was like they never even thought of the other ramifications of the way they introduced it. I absolutely love being stuck in an instance when I am the only one in the dungeon and can't clear combat.. Just great... thanks....

Melivar

DreamyLu wrote: »

Games forums (no matter what game) - more specifically the "General discussion" sections of it - are mostly negative because they're used by players who have a problem with the game and want to talk about. Therefore, a vast majority of posts are complains or request for changes. With that, the forum appears like nobody is happy with the game.

However, don't forget that only a little minority of players post here compared to how many players are in game. Most players don't even know that forum, or just don't feel the need to post.

This is so true, WOW, Neverwinter, New World, even an unreleased Ashes forums are full the I don't like this, I want that, some people are never happy and the ones that are you will barely hear from.

The in-game communities are normally a much better place to see the real heartbeat of a game.

React

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

The reality ingame, in discords and other social media, where people are allowed to say what they want to say, is way worse. Most players don't even know about this forum or care to join, because having to write a ticket to get an invitation is too complicated for them.

And there is no real communication here anyway. We get the patchnotes, yes, that's great. But other than that nobody talks to the players. Moderators only delete, ban and move. The community managers copy paste "we don't know" once a week. And 2-3 times a year we get some kind of announcement for something that will never happen. That's it. Famous players like @React and @Nefas are working hard to get real information, but all they get is ignored.

I was hoping for Microsoft to step in with their almost unlimited ressources and save this game, but it doesn't look like they want to. [snip]

Yes, it's sad. But there are plenty of good reasons why players are unhappy. The game could be great, and for a company this size it would be easy to fix the problems, but they don't. And nobody knows why.

Thanks for the tag.

I've sunk more than 15,000 hours into this game over the near decade it has been out, because I cared deeply about it. Whenever I can, I speak positively about the game. The unfortunate reality is that these days, for a PVP player like myself, there is nothing positive to speak of.

When we reach Q4 this year, we will officially hit the 5 year mark since any PVP content has been released. No new BG maps, no new PVP zones, no new systems or game modes, no new useful reward systems, etc. For half a decade.

They've been telling us for the past two years that they simply cannot add anything to PVP until they finish their code rewrite. This project is now 9 months past its initial projected completion date of 1 year (december 2022), and we just received an update that essentially stated they've made no progress, and have no ETA for completion.

They do not do any meaningful balancing to the PVP side of the game, either. We have been in an awful meta since hybridization where it is absurdly easy to survive, both solo and while grouped. The issues causing this are so obvious, and have been explained in great detail, yet I have not seen even one single zenimax comment addressing PVP balance concerns in the past two years.

We don't ever get communication regarding the PVP performance side of the game. Like Freil says in his comment, the communication we do receive consists of the same copy/paste non-answers and the overarching promises made in the yearly letter from @ZOS_MattFiror , which they consistently fail to make good on.

These forums are the only outlet we have to give feedback to zenimax. The negativity you see is just a reflection of how the playerbase feels, and while the internet tends to amplify negativity more than positivity, I have no doubt that the majority of it here is warranted.

[edited to remove quote]

loveeso

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

The reality ingame, in discords and other social media, where people are allowed to say what they want to say, is way worse. Most players don't even know about this forum or care to join, because having to write a ticket to get an invitation is too complicated for them.

And there is no real communication here anyway. We get the patchnotes, yes, that's great. But other than that nobody talks to the players. Moderators only delete, ban and move. The community managers copy paste "we don't know" once a week. And 2-3 times a year we get some kind of announcement for something that will never happen. That's it. Famous players like @React and @Nefas are working hard to get real information, but all they get is ignored.

I was hoping for Microsoft to step in with their almost unlimited ressources and save this game, but it doesn't look like they want to. [snip]

Yes, it's sad. But there are plenty of good reasons why players are unhappy. The game could be great, and for a company this size it would be easy to fix the problems, but they don't. And nobody knows why.

This.

[edited to remove quote]

Four_Fingers

We all need to find something to do like play a game, oh wait!

SilverBride

zaria wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm just thankful that I don't see any of the negative doomsday stuff I see here in game.

Agree but look about this poor dog.

I was referring to players and their negative comments and attitudes, not about clipping issues.

Elsonso

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I really think you guys should spend some time on the Wow forums before words like Negativity are bandied about....

Maybe. Even if something is "not as bad as" something else, it can still be bad. Settling for the lesser of two evils still means accepting an evil.

I'm out of old cliches, but if I think of any more, I'll be back.

Maybe...the thing is the in game community and the forum community are diametric in the extreme...I have often wondered if ZoS has ever taken a look at how many forum users have even logged into the game once since you can spend five bucks and get a shiny new forum key I bet that number is high...I wonder how the forums would change if say you had to be a subscriber to post in the General Forum.

Well... while I know you are not advocating that, if someone really wants to stick it to ZOS in the forum, they could subscribe for a month and do just that. No need to even log into the game.

Now, if it was "one post or comment for every 8 hours played" then I am pretty sure the forum would be a very different place.

muscle_witch

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I really think you guys should spend some time on the Wow forums before words like Negativity are bandied about....

Maybe. Even if something is "not as bad as" something else, it can still be bad. Settling for the lesser of two evils still means accepting an evil.

I'm out of old cliches, but if I think of any more, I'll be back.

Maybe...the thing is the in game community and the forum community are diametric in the extreme...I have often wondered if ZoS has ever taken a look at how many forum users have even logged into the game once since you can spend five bucks and get a shiny new forum key I bet that number is high...I wonder how the forums would change if say you had to be a subscriber to post in the General Forum.

Well... while I know you are not advocating that, if someone really wants to stick it to ZOS in the forum, they could subscribe for a month and do just that. No need to even log into the game.

Now, if it was "one post or comment for every 8 hours played" then I am pretty sure the forum would be a very different place.

I'm not sure it would be.

Muizer

muscle_witch wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

There's people who believe that if you kick up enough of a [snip] storm by mobilizing the above, you can somehow force ZoS to take action, [snip]

It's delusional and toxic to think that the game devs should listen to community feedback? That's uh, quite a take.

I was not talking about "the community" but Individuals. In the case you quoted, I was referring to those who operate under the assumption that their opinion will carry more weight if it is voiced more loudly, more often and in more different places. That is delusional and toxic.

[edited to remove quote]

muscle_witch

Muizer wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

There's people who believe that if you kick up enough of a [snip] storm by mobilizing the above, you can somehow force ZoS to take action, [snip]

It's delusional and toxic to think that the game devs should listen to community feedback? That's uh, quite a take.

I was not talking about "the community" but Individuals. In the case you quoted, I was referring to those who operate under the assumption that their opinion will carry more weight if it is voiced more loudly, more often and in more different places. That is delusional and toxic.

Were you under the impression that a community is not composed of individuals? Some people care more than others, some people have more free time than others, and some people are better at organizing than others. Mobilizing other dissatisfied people is kind of the cornerstone of effecting change in a community.

[edited to remove quote]

Muizer

muscle_witch wrote: »

Mobilizing other dissatisfied people is kind of the cornerstone of effecting change in a community.

And exactly in what way does the community change when you do that?

Elsonso

muscle_witch wrote: »

Mobilizing other dissatisfied people is kind of the cornerstone of effecting change in a community.

Yes, it is. The problem here is that the forums are isolated from the bulk of the community, so mobilizing other forum users is sort of the tail trying to wag the dog. The forum does not have the critical mass to effect change by itself. This is one of the reasons that streamers and off-forum influencers are important, and even with those added in, it may not be enough.

muscle_witch

Muizer wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

Mobilizing other dissatisfied people is kind of the cornerstone of effecting change in a community.

And exactly in what way does the community change when you do that?

Sorry, do you genuinely not know how collective action works or are you trying to make a rhetorical point?

SeaGtGruff

blktauna wrote: »

Brother you are absolving ZOS of their responsibilities.

A working product makes for customers who are too busy playing to spend time complaining on a forum.

Define "working product." Is that a product with no bugs (which we all want), or a product that contains only the stuff that we want and none of the stuff that we don't want-- because there are too many conflicting opinions to ever have that.

And no, I'm not "absolving ZOS of their responsibilities." They're still responsible for the game, and I still expect and hope that they'll be able to expand it, improve it, and fix it.

I just think it's supremely unhelpful and toxic for players to ceaselessly bash on ZOS, the devs, and the game.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to ignoring this thread and playing the game.

NoticeMeArkay

The sudden appearance of multiple threads in regards of the disabled gifting feature for crown crates and other crown store items makes for a good example of how much effort zos puts into training it's playerbase to seek the crown store.

I'll put myself in the boo-corner with this one, but from what I've read on more than 8 different threads regarding the topic, people appeared like experiencing withdrawal symptoms from microtransactions being turned off.
And no, I'm not speaking of the poor fellas who got their send or received gifts stuck in the void during the process. That's annoying as hell and I hope the support tends to them.

I'm speaking of those who pleaded, threatened, convince by all means and tried to blame everyone and their grandmother apart from themselves. Too many even turned verbally agressive and caused [Snip]s all over the place.

All this because they aren't able to spend money.
Not unable to play the game, but unable to spend money on microtransactions.

Who the HELL behaves like this when not being able to temporarily purchase goods? Wether it be digitally or real stuff.
Addicted people. And yes, microtransaction or the engagement with those are associated with gaming and gambling disorders.

The first thing players get to see upon logging in is a window that covers almost all of the screen, advertising the newest additions to it's store. We can't even read the patchnotes ingame, but there's room for the store ads.
Even when new microtransactions go live as their timer since being patched in runs out, players experience running into the same window upon fast travelling or even worse: Using portals and other interactions to be transferred into a different cell. If you run dungeons more often, or even trials, you've experienced this before.
The rapid clicking for the 'Close button' before you die.
Logged in and bored? How often do you find yourself opening the crown store out of all things and browsing through it's contents while being clueless over how to spend your time or waiting for something/somebody.
People toss the hot news about datamined microtransactions across Discord and other platforms on a monthly basis.
Planning their next purchases ahead, forcing themselves to login and farm seals of endevour even tho they don't find any reason to actively play the game, just so they won't miss out on the new stuff.
Every stable ingame serves as an advertisement for crown crate mounts. After nearly 10 years, it's been 3 horses and their crooked legs to buy for gold. And every new player sees this and get's tempted.
And then we have players who purely spend time on the game to farm gold by various methods in order to acquire something from the Crates or the Store itself. Enjoying it for a little time and shutting the game off for another while again.
Even during official streams by the developers or it's community managers we cannot escape the continously highlighting of the crown store.

Zenimax has made sure that it's playerbase slowly grows accustomed to the everbeing presence of the Crown Store. Of the Crown Crates. Everytime players ask for help to find a costume, a mount, a skin, a house, a weapon skin or even an adornment. The answer remains for 99.9% of all cases the same.

I'm glad that crown gifting has been turned off. It gives the addicts (And I don't mean this in any attempt to harass but as a very honest observation with no foul judgement behind it) a much needed break and a chance to refocus.
It forces people to reconsider their purchases in regards of using their own actual money now. People are forced to vote with their wallet and ask themselves if it's really worth it. And that's how it should have been from the start!

Not because I don't want people to enjoy turning their ingame earned gold into something they dearly wish for and perhaps even couldn't afford otherwise.
But because it stopped the wheel that Zenimax had carefully build up year over year entirely at once and gives the playerbase a first moment of clarity once all the stirred up emotions have calmed down.

I've bought stuff from the crown store too. I've spend monthly crowns on crates too.

And despite having almost every single achievement ingame, apart from various more difficult trial achievements and the newly "Go back to zone X and fence items worth of 20k gold" achievements...

...My most fulfilling acquisition after playing the game for 6 years straight now, was unlocking a staff from the crown crates with seals of endevours purely. I saw it and I knew it was the one and only staff I ever wanted my main to wield as it was perfect. And I had to spend months on actively avoiding microtransactions in order to "achieve" it.
And in retrospect, that's pretty damn sad.

SilverBride

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I just think it's supremely unhelpful and toxic for players to ceaselessly bash on ZOS, the devs, and the game.

Very well put and I couldn't agree more.

shadyjane62

The people who are happy with the game as it is are there playing.

The rest of us come here.

Muizer

muscle_witch wrote: »

Sorry, do you genuinely not know how collective action works or are you trying to make a rhetorical point?

In theory the customer base collectively has leverage over ZoS. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Castagere

We all get caught up in these days. I'm old enough to remember mmo forums when people went to talk about what they did in mmo's and how much they liked the game. Do that here and you will be attacked for it.

BahometZ

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

The sudden appearance of multiple threads in regards of the disabled gifting feature for crown crates and other crown store items makes for a good example of how much effort zos puts into training it's playerbase to seek the crown store.

I'll put myself in the boo-corner with this one, but from what I've read on more than 8 different threads regarding the topic, people appeared like experiencing withdrawal symptoms from microtransactions being turned off.
And no, I'm not speaking of the poor fellas who got their send or received gifts stuck in the void during the process. That's annoying as hell and I hope the support tends to them.

I'm speaking of those who pleaded, threatened, convince by all means and tried to blame everyone and their grandmother apart from themselves. Too many even turned verbally agressive and caused [Snip]s all over the place.

All this because they aren't able to spend money.
Not unable to play the game, but unable to spend money on microtransactions.

Who the HELL behaves like this when not being able to temporarily purchase goods? Wether it be digitally or real stuff.
Addicted people. And yes, microtransaction or the engagement with those are associated with gaming and gambling disorders.

The first thing players get to see upon logging in is a window that covers almost all of the screen, advertising the newest additions to it's store. We can't even read the patchnotes ingame, but there's room for the store ads.
Even when new microtransactions go live as their timer since being patched in runs out, players experience running into the same window upon fast travelling or even worse: Using portals and other interactions to be transferred into a different cell. If you run dungeons more often, or even trials, you've experienced this before.
The rapid clicking for the 'Close button' before you die.
Logged in and bored? How often do you find yourself opening the crown store out of all things and browsing through it's contents while being clueless over how to spend your time or waiting for something/somebody.
People toss the hot news about datamined microtransactions across Discord and other platforms on a monthly basis.
Planning their next purchases ahead, forcing themselves to login and farm seals of endevour even tho they don't find any reason to actively play the game, just so they won't miss out on the new stuff.
Every stable ingame serves as an advertisement for crown crate mounts. After nearly 10 years, it's been 3 horses and their crooked legs to buy for gold. And every new player sees this and get's tempted.
And then we have players who purely spend time on the game to farm gold by various methods in order to acquire something from the Crates or the Store itself. Enjoying it for a little time and shutting the game off for another while again.
Even during official streams by the developers or it's community managers we cannot escape the continously highlighting of the crown store.

Zenimax has made sure that it's playerbase slowly grows accustomed to the everbeing presence of the Crown Store. Of the Crown Crates. Everytime players ask for help to find a costume, a mount, a skin, a house, a weapon skin or even an adornment. The answer remains for 99.9% of all cases the same.

I'm glad that crown gifting has been turned off. It gives the addicts (And I don't mean this in any attempt to harass but as a very honest observation with no foul judgement behind it) a much needed break and a chance to refocus.
It forces people to reconsider their purchases in regards of using their own actual money now. People are forced to vote with their wallet and ask themselves if it's really worth it. And that's how it should have been from the start!

Not because I don't want people to enjoy turning their ingame earned gold into something they dearly wish for and perhaps even couldn't afford otherwise.
But because it stopped the wheel that Zenimax had carefully build up year over year entirely at once and gives the playerbase a first moment of clarity once all the stirred up emotions have calmed down.

I've bought stuff from the crown store too. I've spend monthly crowns on crates too.

And despite having almost every single achievement ingame, apart from various more difficult trial achievements and the newly "Go back to zone X and fence items worth of 20k gold" achievements...

...My most fulfilling acquisition after playing the game for 6 years straight now, was unlocking a staff from the crown crates with seals of endevours purely. I saw it and I knew it was the one and only staff I ever wanted my main to wield as it was perfect. And I had to spend months on actively avoiding microtransactions in order to "achieve" it.
And in retrospect, that's pretty damn sad.

Damn, I ain't reading all that, but I hope you feel better for writing it.

muscle_witch

Muizer wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

Sorry, do you genuinely not know how collective action works or are you trying to make a rhetorical point?

In theory the customer base collectively has leverage over ZoS. [snip]

Saying that it's only okay to complain as long as you're not trying to change the thing you're complaining about is a pretty bold stance.

[edited to remove quote]

Elvenheart

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

...My most fulfilling acquisition after playing the game for 6 years straight now, was unlocking a staff from the crown crates with seals of endevours purely. I saw it and I knew it was the one and only staff I ever wanted my main to wield as it was perfect. And I had to spend months on actively avoiding microtransactions in order to "achieve" it.
And in retrospect, that's pretty damn sad.

Was it the Ayleid staff? I like that one a lot, even though it seems like it’s turned wrong on the character. Someday I hope they put a replica Staff of Magnus in the game. 🧙‍♂️

NoticeMeArkay

Elvenheart wrote: »

Was it the Ayleid staff? I like that one a lot, even though it seems like it’s turned wrong on the character. Someday I hope they put a replica Staff of Magnus in the game. 🧙‍♂️

No, it was the 'Soulrazer Staff" for my breton soul mage.

reazea

Companies tend to reap what they sow in this respect. If the customers are treated with respect and courtesy they don't complain.

SilverBride

Making changes to the game that they feel will improve and help balance it is not disrespectful or discourteous. And not doing everything that players ask for is not being disrespectful or discourteous.

But every single time there is any change these forums are filled with bashing and accusations and threats to quit or cancel subs and legal action has even been suggested. THAT is disrespectful and discourteous and above all immature.

Feedback can be given without toxicity. There is no justification for toxic behavior.

loveeso

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

The sudden appearance of multiple threads in regards of the disabled gifting feature for crown crates and other crown store items makes for a good example of how much effort zos puts into training it's playerbase to seek the crown store.

I'll put myself in the boo-corner with this one, but from what I've read on more than 8 different threads regarding the topic, people appeared like experiencing withdrawal symptoms from microtransactions being turned off.
And no, I'm not speaking of the poor fellas who got their send or received gifts stuck in the void during the process. That's annoying as hell and I hope the support tends to them.

I'm speaking of those who pleaded, threatened, convince by all means and tried to blame everyone and their grandmother apart from themselves. Too many even turned verbally agressive and caused [Snip]s all over the place.

All this because they aren't able to spend money.
Not unable to play the game, but unable to spend money on microtransactions.

Who the HELL behaves like this when not being able to temporarily purchase goods? Wether it be digitally or real stuff.
Addicted people. And yes, microtransaction or the engagement with those are associated with gaming and gambling disorders.

The first thing players get to see upon logging in is a window that covers almost all of the screen, advertising the newest additions to it's store. We can't even read the patchnotes ingame, but there's room for the store ads.
Even when new microtransactions go live as their timer since being patched in runs out, players experience running into the same window upon fast travelling or even worse: Using portals and other interactions to be transferred into a different cell. If you run dungeons more often, or even trials, you've experienced this before.
The rapid clicking for the 'Close button' before you die.
Logged in and bored? How often do you find yourself opening the crown store out of all things and browsing through it's contents while being clueless over how to spend your time or waiting for something/somebody.
People toss the hot news about datamined microtransactions across Discord and other platforms on a monthly basis.
Planning their next purchases ahead, forcing themselves to login and farm seals of endevour even tho they don't find any reason to actively play the game, just so they won't miss out on the new stuff.
Every stable ingame serves as an advertisement for crown crate mounts. After nearly 10 years, it's been 3 horses and their crooked legs to buy for gold. And every new player sees this and get's tempted.
And then we have players who purely spend time on the game to farm gold by various methods in order to acquire something from the Crates or the Store itself. Enjoying it for a little time and shutting the game off for another while again.
Even during official streams by the developers or it's community managers we cannot escape the continously highlighting of the crown store.

Zenimax has made sure that it's playerbase slowly grows accustomed to the everbeing presence of the Crown Store. Of the Crown Crates. Everytime players ask for help to find a costume, a mount, a skin, a house, a weapon skin or even an adornment. The answer remains for 99.9% of all cases the same.

I'm glad that crown gifting has been turned off. It gives the addicts (And I don't mean this in any attempt to harass but as a very honest observation with no foul judgement behind it) a much needed break and a chance to refocus.
It forces people to reconsider their purchases in regards of using their own actual money now. People are forced to vote with their wallet and ask themselves if it's really worth it. And that's how it should have been from the start!

Not because I don't want people to enjoy turning their ingame earned gold into something they dearly wish for and perhaps even couldn't afford otherwise.
But because it stopped the wheel that Zenimax had carefully build up year over year entirely at once and gives the playerbase a first moment of clarity once all the stirred up emotions have calmed down.

I've bought stuff from the crown store too. I've spend monthly crowns on crates too.

And despite having almost every single achievement ingame, apart from various more difficult trial achievements and the newly "Go back to zone X and fence items worth of 20k gold" achievements...

...My most fulfilling acquisition after playing the game for 6 years straight now, was unlocking a staff from the crown crates with seals of endevours purely. I saw it and I knew it was the one and only staff I ever wanted my main to wield as it was perfect. And I had to spend months on actively avoiding microtransactions in order to "achieve" it.
And in retrospect, that's pretty damn sad.

I agree with everything you have said about the crown store. The game would be much better without it and without the company deliberately designing the game in a way that lets them extract more money from their customers instead of designing the best game possible (they charge more than enough for the game, dlcs, expansions, and subscriptions).

That said, unless I have missed something very recent, what you wrote about addicts not being able to spend money on the crown items is factually incorrect - as far as I know ZOS only blocked the customers’ ability to send gifts to their friends, they can still buy crates and everything else for themselves.

What seems especially bad and unethical about what ZOS did this time is that many people paid for a product (crowns) that allowed buying gifts… and now they are left with a different product than the one they paid for - crowns that do not let them to buy gifts. Now ZOS should offer full refunds to customers who request them.

Warhawke_80

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I really think you guys should spend some time on the Wow forums before words like Negativity are bandied about....

Maybe. Even if something is "not as bad as" something else, it can still be bad. Settling for the lesser of two evils still means accepting an evil.

I'm out of old cliches, but if I think of any more, I'll be back.

Maybe...the thing is the in game community and the forum community are diametric in the extreme...I have often wondered if ZoS has ever taken a look at how many forum users have even logged into the game once since you can spend five bucks and get a shiny new forum key I bet that number is high...I wonder how the forums would change if say you had to be a subscriber to post in the General Forum.

Well... while I know you are not advocating that, if someone really wants to stick it to ZOS in the forum, they could subscribe for a month and do just that. No need to even log into the game.

Now, if it was "one post or comment for every 8 hours played" then I am pretty sure the forum would be a very different place.

Quite right but they would be paying Sixteen clams a month to do that...and after thirty days they would have to shell over another sixteen clams...regardless I do like your idea better.

TaSheen

If you look back about a year, I'm sure you can find a lengthy discussion in several threads about various acts of discourtesy and disrespect.

And there's at least one "kneejerk" response this year (I think it was this year).

SilverBride

TaSheen wrote: »

If you look back about a year, I'm sure you can find a lengthy discussion in several threads about various acts of discourtesy and disrespect.

And there's at least one "kneejerk" response this year (I think it was this year).

Yes there are threads making claims but I've never seen an example given.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.