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This event always brings out the jerks
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svendf✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
And resistance and health doesn´t matter ? hahah0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I mean no. Im definitely not geared as a tank, cant provide any buffs or ulti buffs. dont have the sustain for it but i can slot a taunt should the need arise, i have it because its a common tactic to run 3 dps in vdsa and have a dps taunt the boss at the end. Im usually still doin 70% of group damage in dungeons regardless. That dont make me a tank. Just makes me a dps with a taunt.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 8, 2023 2:10PM2 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's an even bigger level of madness I noticed during the event: people will not go for the hard mode in a base game dungeon even though it's the pledge... Twice so far in vet Spindlecrutch 1 (which is today's pledge) players will attack the boss without reading the scroll and despite asking to reset in the chat so we can activate hard mode, they will just go ahead and kill it. And these were fast groups, and since there's not much difference in that hard mode fight, it goes by equally fast, I don't get why they didn't want the extra keys, and also didn't want others in the group to get the extra keys from the pledge... This is peak pettiness, I honestly don't get it.0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I disagree with this. I've had too many "tanks" in vet dungeons who taunt bosses and then proceed to kite them all over the place (especially out of the DD's GBAoE), which is even worse than not taunting at all (because it reduces group DPS so much).0 -
Malprave✭✭✭✭The random dungeon que mirrors real life perfectly. Sometimes you have great experiences with fun people, sometimes you meet some real jerks. Don’t let the jerks put you off of something you enjoy.0
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Malprave✭✭✭✭All my DD ALTs I que as tank to rnd even though they are DPS. I just slot undaunted taunt for professional courtesy, and keep taunt on bosses. For rnd it's much better than an actual tank in my opinion
And that may be fine depending on what dungeon comes up. For veteran dungeons that are actually hard a real tank is needed. If the dungeon requires a real tank, you just wasted everyone’s time.
1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
And resistance and health doesn´t matter ? hahahboi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I mean no. Im definitely not geared as a tank, cant provide any buffs or ulti buffs. dont have the sustain for it but i can slot a taunt should the need arise, i have it because its a common tactic to run 3 dps in vdsa and have a dps taunt the boss at the end. Im usually still doin 70% of group damage in dungeons regardless. That dont make me a tank. Just makes me a dps with a taunt.
I dunno if I just wasn't clear...
If you taunt the boss, congrats, you're tanking it until your taunt runs out or you die because you were undergeared.
If you queue up as a tank in the dungeon finder, I consider using a taunt and being able to stay alive to be the bare minimum of the role. Because dead tanks can't taunt.
I think its worth drawing a distinction between DDs with a taunt who're capable of effectively tanking most normal dungeons VS the DDs who falsely queued up as tank to skip the normal DD queue with zero intention of taunting the boss.4 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
And resistance and health doesn´t matter ? hahahboi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I mean no. Im definitely not geared as a tank, cant provide any buffs or ulti buffs. dont have the sustain for it but i can slot a taunt should the need arise, i have it because its a common tactic to run 3 dps in vdsa and have a dps taunt the boss at the end. Im usually still doin 70% of group damage in dungeons regardless. That dont make me a tank. Just makes me a dps with a taunt.
I dunno if I just wasn't clear...
If you taunt the boss, congrats, you're tanking it until your taunt runs out or you die because you were undergeared.
If you queue up as a tank in the dungeon finder, I consider using a taunt and being able to stay alive to be the bare minimum of the role. Because dead tanks can't taunt.
I think its worth drawing a distinction between DDs with a taunt who're capable of effectively tanking most normal dungeons VS the DDs who falsely queued up as tank to skip the normal DD queue with zero intention of taunting the boss.
I guess i kind of get what you are saying to a degree but while i will never que as a tank i can definitely pull it off in all normal and some vet. Taunting in the basic sense would make you the "tank" as mobs are going after you but in most cases not an effective one.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
And resistance and health doesn´t matter ? hahahboi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I mean no. Im definitely not geared as a tank, cant provide any buffs or ulti buffs. dont have the sustain for it but i can slot a taunt should the need arise, i have it because its a common tactic to run 3 dps in vdsa and have a dps taunt the boss at the end. Im usually still doin 70% of group damage in dungeons regardless. That dont make me a tank. Just makes me a dps with a taunt.
I dunno if I just wasn't clear...
If you taunt the boss, congrats, you're tanking it until your taunt runs out or you die because you were undergeared.
If you queue up as a tank in the dungeon finder, I consider using a taunt and being able to stay alive to be the bare minimum of the role. Because dead tanks can't taunt.
I think its worth drawing a distinction between DDs with a taunt who're capable of effectively tanking most normal dungeons VS the DDs who falsely queued up as tank to skip the normal DD queue with zero intention of taunting the boss.
I guess i kind of get what you are saying to a degree but while i will never que as a tank i can definitely pull it off in all normal and some vet. Taunting in the basic sense would make you the "tank" as mobs are going after you but in most cases not an effective one.
It's more of a normal dungeon thing, I think, because vet dungeon bosses will punish unprepared tanks and there's a greater need for CC and grouping adds.
Whereas normal dungeons have a culture of "go fast" so it's very common to see DDs queued up as the tank. If they have a taunt and can stay alive, everyone gets a smooth run because the boss is taunted, even though the adds aren't grouped up. If they don't even bother to taunt, then they're just pure DDs/fake tanks who are expecting another group member to face tank the boss for them.1 -
svendf✭✭✭✭The random dungeon que mirrors real life perfectly. Sometimes you have great experiences with fun people, sometimes you meet some real jerks. Don’t let the jerks put you off of something you enjoy.
Sure, agreed. Now they do run the game - keeping people away from dungeons, even outside events.
IRL these jerks, have to deal with real harsh consequences sometimes, whitch will make them think twice.
In Eso no consequences at all
2 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Yeah, I wonder if these players feel it is all worth it?The random dungeon que mirrors real life perfectly. Sometimes you have great experiences with fun people, sometimes you meet some real jerks. Don’t let the jerks put you off of something you enjoy.
Sure, agreed. Now they do run the game - keeping people away from dungeons, even outside events.
IRL these jerks, have to deal with real harsh consequences sometimes, whitch will make them think twice.
In Eso no consequences at all
Is getting into a dungeon faster and getting a few keys faster, worth ruining three other players their day, is it worth destroying the MMO part of the game for it, is it worth causing players to quit or stop playing parts of the game, is it worth it if it may eventually cause the entire game to be taken offline?
All they will have left is their bad memories, and how they ruined the game for others.2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
And resistance and health doesn´t matter ? hahahboi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I can't imagine how long it would take to find a group if there weren't any fake tanks and we had to wait for a real one to be available. They are actually doing us a service.
Eh no. If they put on a taunt and a shield and hold the mob i dun care if you are a dps. Otherwise it becomes someone else job. In my case its pretty much always me. I deal with it but dont encourage it..sheesh
If they taunt the boss, that's a tank.
I mean no. Im definitely not geared as a tank, cant provide any buffs or ulti buffs. dont have the sustain for it but i can slot a taunt should the need arise, i have it because its a common tactic to run 3 dps in vdsa and have a dps taunt the boss at the end. Im usually still doin 70% of group damage in dungeons regardless. That dont make me a tank. Just makes me a dps with a taunt.
I dunno if I just wasn't clear...
If you taunt the boss, congrats, you're tanking it until your taunt runs out or you die because you were undergeared.
If you queue up as a tank in the dungeon finder, I consider using a taunt and being able to stay alive to be the bare minimum of the role. Because dead tanks can't taunt.
I think its worth drawing a distinction between DDs with a taunt who're capable of effectively tanking most normal dungeons VS the DDs who falsely queued up as tank to skip the normal DD queue with zero intention of taunting the boss.
I guess i kind of get what you are saying to a degree but while i will never que as a tank i can definitely pull it off in all normal and some vet. Taunting in the basic sense would make you the "tank" as mobs are going after you but in most cases not an effective one.
It's more of a normal dungeon thing, I think, because vet dungeon bosses will punish unprepared tanks and there's a greater need for CC and grouping adds.
Whereas normal dungeons have a culture of "go fast" so it's very common to see DDs queued up as the tank. If they have a taunt and can stay alive, everyone gets a smooth run because the boss is taunted, even though the adds aren't grouped up. If they don't even bother to taunt, then they're just pure DDs/fake tanks who are expecting another group member to face tank the boss for them.
Mmm i mostly run vet randoms because i thought i could get away from that... the unfortunate issue is this still happens... a LOT and frankly i cant tank a vet dlc as a dps. I just dont have the resistance. I see it all the time. I had a guy que as a tank in a vet random the other night and it was a bloody werewolf. I had to leave and eat the penalty at first boss.We were in vet frost vault. I cant tank that on a dps with 14k resistance, even with armor pots and whatever mitigation i could pull out of my bag o tricks.I ended up in a vet shipwright a few days back. Both the healer and the tank were way under leveled and experienced. Im sitting here trying to explain mechs, rez healer, tell tank what to grab, explain add priorities... heck i even gave the tank armor pots to try and help him. And that was an actual tank... i mean he was trying atleast.
Go fast is absolutely a thing in vet dungeons. It rare if i don't get a speed run with a half decent tank.. but you gotta understand- i also put out pretty cracked dps relative to the average player. Not god level or anything but I run trifectas, prog triple skips for vcr ect.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 8, 2023 8:49PM1 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's an even bigger level of madness I noticed during the event: people will not go for the hard mode in a base game dungeon even though it's the pledge... Twice so far in vet Spindlecrutch 1 (which is today's pledge) players will attack the boss without reading the scroll and despite asking to reset in the chat so we can activate hard mode, they will just go ahead and kill it. And these were fast groups, and since there's not much difference in that hard mode fight, it goes by equally fast, I don't get why they didn't want the extra keys, and also didn't want others in the group to get the extra keys from the pledge... This is peak pettiness, I honestly don't get it.
Not everyone is interested in hard mode; a lot of players mainly care about getting the monster helms, which doesn't require completing the dungeon in hard mode. /shrugI've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »There's an even bigger level of madness I noticed during the event: people will not go for the hard mode in a base game dungeon even though it's the pledge... Twice so far in vet Spindlecrutch 1 (which is today's pledge) players will attack the boss without reading the scroll and despite asking to reset in the chat so we can activate hard mode, they will just go ahead and kill it. And these were fast groups, and since there's not much difference in that hard mode fight, it goes by equally fast, I don't get why they didn't want the extra keys, and also didn't want others in the group to get the extra keys from the pledge... This is peak pettiness, I honestly don't get it.
Not everyone is interested in hard mode; a lot of players mainly care about getting the monster helms, which doesn't require completing the dungeon in hard mode. /shrug
It was the pledge dungeon, and the HM is almost the same fight, there's virtually no reason not to do it. It wouldn't have taken extra time, and it would give more keys and transmute stones. Why would anyone refuse to do it... What you're saying is akin to someone for eg., wanting to do the quest in a dungeon, and the others wouldn't wait or actively try to sabotage them, even though it makes no difference to their own run. I can understand a random group not doing the HM in a DLC pledge, but I haven't seen groups refusing to do HM in a base game pledge since 2015...1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Get rid of queue cooldown already, this encourage real tank to use finder, and let fake dd need to know where they belong0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
The MMO part I always refer to is the grouping parts: dungeons, trials, anything else that requires multiple players.SilverBride wrote: »
I know, technically MMO just means a massive multiplayer online world, but the multiplayer part is the parts I specifically refer to. As that is the multiplayer working-with-other-players part, and the traditional MMO part of the MMORPG games. Due to RPG's themselves being singleplayer.
PS: I'm still from the time where internet wasn't a thing, so I witnessed the evolution from RPG to MMORPG. And from singleplayer games getting LAN and WAN capabilities, to eventually online games.0 -
Tomasius✭✭✭I give you the new and improved version 2.0 of 'How to appropriately use the dungeon finder':
Pre-requisites:
- You need two accounts.
- You need to remember that you can control only one account at a time.
Due to the peculiarities of the finder if you have two characters in the group, one flagged as DD and the other flagged as either support role and the one flagged as DD is the leader the queue will pop almost instantly.
Once successfully ported to the dungeon in question you have a couple of choices depending on how much integrity you have left.
If you are of the mindset that other people are just extras in your film you can keep the alt in the instance and force the other two players to either carry it or disband, the vote to kick won't pass.
Bonus for this option: you can even force the other two players to carry both your accounts, you can just LA once every so often - on one account at a time! - if you feel like it and contribute to the legend of the 'fake DPS'.
If however you have some semblance of shame left you can expunge the alt from the instance and pretend that a glitch in the matrix just occurred then carry on; for extra points you can even express your frustration at the 'glitchiness' of the finder in the chat.
I hope you enjoyed my little essay and thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Edit: I forgot one bonus: if you think this qualifies as antisocial behaviour and report it, well, that is like... your opinion man, one that CS does not share.
Yes, I can play two characters simultaneously. I'm set up with two computers, side by side, so I can do this in another game where it is very clear that ALTs are perfectly fine. Look up "dual client tests" and "DCTs" - I'm pretty sure there's some published video of my characters stumbling around like drunkards (because that's what playing two characters at once really looks like).
I haven't heard of anyone-else doing this because it's too hard; both difficult hard AND() especially pain in the head hard.Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I give you the new and improved version 2.0 of 'How to appropriately use the dungeon finder':
Pre-requisites:
- You need two accounts.
- You need to remember that you can control only one account at a time.
Due to the peculiarities of the finder if you have two characters in the group, one flagged as DD and the other flagged as either support role and the one flagged as DD is the leader the queue will pop almost instantly.
Once successfully ported to the dungeon in question you have a couple of choices depending on how much integrity you have left.
If you are of the mindset that other people are just extras in your film you can keep the alt in the instance and force the other two players to either carry it or disband, the vote to kick won't pass.
Bonus for this option: you can even force the other two players to carry both your accounts, you can just LA once every so often - on one account at a time! - if you feel like it and contribute to the legend of the 'fake DPS'.
If however you have some semblance of shame left you can expunge the alt from the instance and pretend that a glitch in the matrix just occurred then carry on; for extra points you can even express your frustration at the 'glitchiness' of the finder in the chat.
I hope you enjoyed my little essay and thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Edit: I forgot one bonus: if you think this qualifies as antisocial behaviour and report it, well, that is like... your opinion man, one that CS does not share.
Yes, I can play two characters simultaneously. I'm set up with two computers, side by side, so I can do this in another game where it is very clear that ALTs are perfectly fine. Look up "dual client tests" and "DCTs" - I'm pretty sure there's some published video of my characters stumbling around like drunkards (because that's what playing two characters at once really looks like).
I haven't heard of anyone-else doing this because it's too hard; both difficult hard AND() especially pain in the head hard.
Is not more difficult that playing one character. The alt just gets automatically joined to the encounter in progress in most dungeons. No need to touch it at all except maybe if you feel like it a couple of light attacks on the boss just in case.
This is not about effectively controlling two accounts, this is about either completely skipping the queue without having to queue as a 'fake' role or in some egregious cases I have encountered getting other people to literally carry one of your accounts, whether they want or not.0 -
Tomasius✭✭✭who queue as tank or healer--whether or not they really can play that role--and repeatedly group til they get a dungeon they are willing to do. Meanwhile, they leave a bunch of gimped groups in their wake, many of which can't complete the content and DF won't give them a 4th, so now THEY ALSO have the 15 min cooldown. The 15 mins "penalty" for doing so isn't even enough of a "penalty" to be laughable. It's virtually non-existent. Just log out that toon, and on to the next fake tank or fake healer. by the time you actually do a dungeon... or have cycled thru all your alt....the first one is no longer on cooldown. Hey ZOS... how about actually PENALIZING ACCOUNTS for being self centered jerks?
I think that this is the kind of attitude which is driving players away from cooperative group activities.
I must also point out that being new or low level at an chosen activity in group dungeon does not make someone a "jerk". I could mention a great many other things players do in dungeons, which seem a bit self-centred, but that would be pointless seeing that the dungeon finder doesn't take into account what player experience a player has in mind when queuing for a group dungeon.
Heads up: Not everyone is farming something. I have to say this because it might be news to some people.
My experience of group dungeon is being so rushed I doubt I could recognize any of the group dungeons if I ever did one a seventh or eighth time because there is no time to "consume the content" or, rather, take in the sights. If I did, I wouldn't make it as far as the first mob corpse before the rest of the group had killed the final boss and moved on to the next dungeon. Let me reiterate: This is a problem with the dungeon finder, not the players.
I must also point out that random group dungeons don't exist so players can take time out of their session to offer free escort services. And players who want an escort service should be paying for it as a carry, not asking for freebies.
Instead, group dungeons exist for players, especially with low level characters, to practice or level a group-dependent skill (such as healing). This practice is pointless if they're already good at it. So the only thing on a player's mind, when choosing between healer, damage dealer or tank roles for group dungeons is which role they want to learn or develop in their character's skill lines and NEVER whether they measure up to some imaginary, head-canon standard which is not applied to the dungeon via the game mechanics (e.g. role-related skill thresholds).
Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭who queue as tank or healer--whether or not they really can play that role--and repeatedly group til they get a dungeon they are willing to do. Meanwhile, they leave a bunch of gimped groups in their wake, many of which can't complete the content and DF won't give them a 4th, so now THEY ALSO have the 15 min cooldown. The 15 mins "penalty" for doing so isn't even enough of a "penalty" to be laughable. It's virtually non-existent. Just log out that toon, and on to the next fake tank or fake healer. by the time you actually do a dungeon... or have cycled thru all your alt....the first one is no longer on cooldown. Hey ZOS... how about actually PENALIZING ACCOUNTS for being self centered jerks?
I think that this is the kind of attitude which is driving players away from cooperative group activities.
I must also point out that being new or low level at an chosen activity in group dungeon does not make someone a "jerk". I could mention a great many other things players do in dungeons, which seem a bit self-centred, but that would be pointless seeing that the dungeon finder doesn't take into account what player experience a player has in mind when queuing for a group dungeon.
Heads up: Not everyone is farming something. I have to say this because it might be news to some people.
My experience of group dungeon is being so rushed I doubt I could recognize any of the group dungeons if I ever did one a seventh or eighth time because there is no time to "consume the content" or, rather, take in the sights. If I did, I wouldn't make it as far as the first mob corpse before the rest of the group had killed the final boss and moved on to the next dungeon. Let me reiterate: This is a problem with the dungeon finder, not the players.
I must also point out that random group dungeons don't exist so players can take time out of their session to offer free escort services. And players who want an escort service should be paying for it as a carry, not asking for freebies.
Instead, group dungeons exist for players, especially with low level characters, to practice or level a group-dependent skill (such as healing). This practice is pointless if they're already good at it. So the only thing on a player's mind, when choosing between healer, damage dealer or tank roles for group dungeons is which role they want to learn or develop in their character's skill lines and NEVER whether they measure up to some imaginary, head-canon standard which is not applied to the dungeon via the game mechanics (e.g. role-related skill thresholds).
Uh...
The problem people like the OP are complaining about isn't new players trying to learn their roles, it's veteran players abusing the role system to get shorter queues without having any intention of actually performing the role they queued for.
A "tank" who drops out of any longer (or more difficult) than average dungeon as soon as it appears (i.e. before any combat actually happens) isn't a newbie who doesn't know any better, it's a selfish jerk who is abusing the tank queue.2 -
Tomasius✭✭✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »How about we stop asking ZOS to punish the entire playerbase because inconsiderate players and use the solution already available to us all - make your own group. If you don't want to do that, then understand that you will actually get random when you sign up for a random.
Because some of us don't *want* to make our own groups. We want to be able on the spur of the moment decide to do a random dungeon and have some reasonable expectation that players in the support roles are actually intending to support not just speed run ahead and leave everyone else to deal with the ever-growing trash mob they leave in their wake.
I would just like to see the other players treat the intent of the 4 man group tank, healer, and 2 DD with a modicum of respect and not just use it as a means to their own ends.
The tank/healer/DD trinity is a tactic, an example of what should be emergent gameplay, like the Sicilian Defense; not something that ever should be "intended". It's not up to a game developer to design strategies and tactics. The point of gameplay is for these to emerge from the mechanics completely unanticipated by the generations of players who came before; because, in order that a game really is a game, the playbook must be written by the playerbase, never the developer. Why do you think the use of natural selection algorithms ("AI") to create decades worth of playbook advances is ruffling so many feathers in the Chess community? What this does is supplant the opportunity for human beings to make contributions to the evolution of gameplay. It's why, in ESO, creative activities such as modding and the extremely limited options to modify player houses are so popular; because there is no other creative outlet - why? Because the video game industry, as a whole, doesn't respect the need of players to have a role in the emergence of new gameplay because video game design has never learned the lessons of board & card game design.
It's everything that's wrong with video game design because all too many people think that the capacity of computer tech to deliver prodigious amounts of content magically changes the rules of good game design. It doesn't. For content delivery, there's always Disney or Netflix. A game always needs something more than content delivery otherwise what you get is eternal stagnation (and content-generation treadmill for the developer) due to a chronic failure to foster the natural evolution of strategic and tactical gameplay (AKA "emergent gameplay"). In fact, all a game needs, in order to foster emergent gameplay, is a consistent environment, mechanics that make enough sense to be memorable and sufficient options for choices to influence oneanother throughout the course of the game (i.e. enough consequential scope for complex collateral relationships between choices - which comes back to providing sufficient player options). The rest takes care of itself and, no, there is no magical property of silicon that creates an exception to this. The oldest and most long-lived game in the world (in addition to being the most popular) can be played on a grid scratched in the dirt with a few pebbles (ok, a few hundred pebbles by the time you're in the endgame). Other than that, the longevity of its first, somewhat limited, content cycle has dwarfed the longevity of the first content cycle of every video game ever made - by a few orders of magnitude in most cases. That's an example of good game design. Trying to second-guess the player and make the player's choices for the player is egregiously bad game design because a choice can't contribute to gameplay unless it is a choice made by the player.
So, for example; what if, just like some Chess openings, the 4 man group (tank healer and 2 DD) is obsolete and players have figured out something stronger - maybe the application of 4 DD with corresponding tactics in play? And, yes, we've been seeing a LOT of this going on around world bosses so maybe players have learned from the experience (if not a little something certain Entropia Universe players might have brought to the table) and, now, tanks and healers really have lost relevance to the current strongest strategy....?
If I were to criticize this state of gameplay, to which your post alludes, I'd be more inclined to point out the paucity of reason to vary squad or team composition to mitigate the impact of terrain (e.g. high visibility vs low visibility, bottlenecks vs open fields, etc.) and the types of opposition encountered - both in terms of mob composition and mob deployment. Provided you follow the "meta" there are no consequences for your mistakes - no matter how badly you screw up. You can literally allow a mob to put an arrow in your head and not need the assistance of a healer to recover with your gear and loot intact. Things like this probably don't help players to take their choices seriously and certainly offer no reason to take an interest in whether approaching an archer across an open field might be a somewhat worse choice than circling around in cover and sapping him when he's not looking.Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »How about we stop asking ZOS to punish the entire playerbase because inconsiderate players and use the solution already available to us all - make your own group. If you don't want to do that, then understand that you will actually get random when you sign up for a random.
Because some of us don't *want* to make our own groups. We want to be able on the spur of the moment decide to do a random dungeon and have some reasonable expectation that players in the support roles are actually intending to support not just speed run ahead and leave everyone else to deal with the ever-growing trash mob they leave in their wake.
I would just like to see the other players treat the intent of the 4 man group tank, healer, and 2 DD with a modicum of respect and not just use it as a means to their own ends.
The tank/healer/DD trinity is a tactic, an example of what should be emergent gameplay, like the Sicilian Defense; not something that ever should be "intended". It's not up to a game developer to design strategies and tactics. The point of gameplay is for these to emerge from the mechanics completely unanticipated by the generations of players who came before; because, in order that a game really is a game, the playbook must be written by the playerbase, never the developer. Why do you think the use of natural selection algorithms ("AI") to create decades worth of playbook advances is ruffling so many feathers in the Chess community? What this does is supplant the opportunity for human beings to make contributions to the evolution of gameplay. It's why, in ESO, creative activities such as modding and the extremely limited options to modify player houses are so popular; because there is no other creative outlet - why? Because the video game industry, as a whole, doesn't respect the need of players to have a role in the emergence of new gameplay because video game design has never learned the lessons of board & card game design.
It's everything that's wrong with video game design because all too many people think that the capacity of computer tech to deliver prodigious amounts of content magically changes the rules of good game design. It doesn't. For content delivery, there's always Disney or Netflix. A game always needs something more than content delivery otherwise what you get is eternal stagnation (and content-generation treadmill for the developer) due to a chronic failure to foster the natural evolution of strategic and tactical gameplay (AKA "emergent gameplay"). In fact, all a game needs, in order to foster emergent gameplay, is a consistent environment, mechanics that make enough sense to be memorable and sufficient options for choices to influence oneanother throughout the course of the game (i.e. enough consequential scope for complex collateral relationships between choices - which comes back to providing sufficient player options). The rest takes care of itself and, no, there is no magical property of silicon that creates an exception to this. The oldest and most long-lived game in the world (in addition to being the most popular) can be played on a grid scratched in the dirt with a few pebbles (ok, a few hundred pebbles by the time you're in the endgame). Other than that, the longevity of its first, somewhat limited, content cycle has dwarfed the longevity of the first content cycle of every video game ever made - by a few orders of magnitude in most cases. That's an example of good game design. Trying to second-guess the player and make the player's choices for the player is egregiously bad game design because a choice can't contribute to gameplay unless it is a choice made by the player.
So, for example; what if, just like some Chess openings, the 4 man group (tank healer and 2 DD) is obsolete and players have figured out something stronger - maybe the application of 4 DD with corresponding tactics in play? And, yes, we've been seeing a LOT of this going on around world bosses so maybe players have learned from the experience (if not a little something certain Entropia Universe players might have brought to the table) and, now, tanks and healers really have lost relevance to the current strongest strategy....?
If I were to criticize this state of gameplay, to which your post alludes, I'd be more inclined to point out the paucity of reason to vary squad or team composition to mitigate the impact of terrain (e.g. high visibility vs low visibility, bottlenecks vs open fields, etc.) and the types of opposition encountered - both in terms of mob composition and mob deployment. Provided you follow the "meta" there are no consequences for your mistakes - no matter how badly you screw up. You can literally allow a mob to put an arrow in your head and not need the assistance of a healer to recover with your gear and loot intact. Things like this probably don't help players to take their choices seriously and certainly offer no reason to take an interest in whether approaching an archer across an open field might be a somewhat worse choice than circling around in cover and sapping him when he's not looking.
It sounds like ESO isn't the game for you.
Also, tons of games have defined player roles that are enshrined in their rulebooks. Look at popular sports. Soccer and hockey have goaltenders with their own unique rules (and equipment). American football has a multitude of different roles; baseball has pitchers and catchers. These aren't just emergent gameplay, they're roles that are built into the games' rules. Why should videogames be any different?Edited by the1andonlyskwex on September 9, 2023 3:57PM1 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »What about fake damage dealers?
There is no fake DD, everyone does damage, some more, others less. Of course, the damage is lower for beginner players/chars than for experienced players. That's perfectly logical, but should that mean banning someone from grouping up for a dungeon? I do not think so.
Okay, so by your logic, damage dealers deal damage, healers heal, and tanks tank.- If someone tanks damage even without a taunt, are they not tanking for the group?
- If someone heals themselves, are they not then healing?
By your logic, each role fulfills all roles, as a tank does damage while healing, and a healer does damage while tanking damage when targeted.
Participation is not enough to clear content.Edited by Tyrant_Tim on September 9, 2023 8:55PM3 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »What about fake damage dealers?
There is no fake DD, everyone does damage, some more, others less. Of course, the damage is lower for beginner players/chars than for experienced players. That's perfectly logical, but should that mean banning someone from grouping up for a dungeon? I do not think so.
Okay, so by your logic, damage dealers deal damage, healers heal, and tanks tank.- If someone tanks damage even without a taunt, are they not tanking for the group?
- If someone heals themselves, are they not then healing?
By your logic, each role fulfills all roles, as a tank does damage while healing, and a healer does damage while tanking damage when targeted.
Participation is not enough to clear content.
The bigger factor is that the DD queue is by far the slowest, so nobody joins it with the intention of cutting in line. As a result, DDs are never fakes. They might be bad or inexperienced, but they're not fake (at least not in the way people mean when they complain about fake tanks or healers).1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »What about fake damage dealers?
There is no fake DD, everyone does damage, some more, others less. Of course, the damage is lower for beginner players/chars than for experienced players. That's perfectly logical, but should that mean banning someone from grouping up for a dungeon? I do not think so.
Okay, so by your logic, damage dealers deal damage, healers heal, and tanks tank.- If someone tanks damage even without a taunt, are they not tanking for the group?
- If someone heals themselves, are they not then healing?
By your logic, each role fulfills all roles, as a tank does damage while healing, and a healer does damage while tanking damage when targeted.
Participation is not enough to clear content.
The bigger factor is that the DD queue is by far the slowest, so nobody joins it with the intention of cutting in line. As a result, DDs are never fakes. They might be bad or inexperienced, but they're not fake (at least not in the way people mean when they complain about fake tanks or healers).
That may be true for the first few runs they let themselves carry through content they otherwise couldn't complete due to lack of skill. (Having the tank and/or healer doing dmg helps with that btw.)
After that, when they are seasoned veterans lurking for transmutes and other rewards (earned by others for them), they know very well what they are doing and are the very peak of fake players.
That's the very moment they come here into the forums and start demanding changes in their favour and punishment for different playstyles.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.2 -
Tomasius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »....
It sounds like ESO isn't the game for you.
What gave you the impression that I haven't bought the game yet?the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, tons of games have defined player roles that are enshrined in their rulebooks. Look at popular sports. Soccer and hockey have goaltenders with their own unique rules (and equipment). American football has a multitude of different roles; baseball has pitchers and catchers. These aren't just emergent gameplay, they're roles that are built into the games' rules. Why should videogames be any different?
Games shouldn't be any different if they're contextualised as a popular sport with defined roles. Delving is not a sport and has no mandatory roles. There are no rules about who or what you bring along. Only practicalities matter. In this context, of an activity defined by practicalities, it's really very silly to try and make rules about roles. That's what makes games different from sports. Context.
And, don't choke on your wheaties but I solo'd Wayrest Sewers, last night, with a level 31 character and got my two tickets.
No Healer.
No tank.
No getting kicked by the resident gold-farmers for not keeping up.
And no whining that my character's so weak I shouldn't play as DD.
The peace and quiet and opportunity to see the sights, read the dialogue, and explore the dungeon I was delving was worth every one of the extra 128 minutes necessary to finish the quest. It felt good and you're certainly never going to get to SEE the place if you're expected to keep up with a group who are more than likely goldfarming and any sightseeing on your part is hurting their bottom line.
So, the whole deal of fake healer / fake tank / fake damage dealer is unlikely to be the problem, here. A symptom, maybe, but not the problem. The problem I see, here, is the failure of the dungeon finder to allow players to assign player experience objectives i.e. what type of team they want to join whether that be the local kit farmers, explorers, exterminators, boss-hunters - because each of those activities have different requirements and, in some cases, I think you'll find the presence of a healer or tank will seriously impair team function. The OP is describing some of these guys as "jerks" but I bet they'd have a few choice words to say about players who want something else and, in pursuit of that something else, don't keep up.
Riddle me this: what makes speedrunner expectations any less valid than yours or mine?Edited by Tomasius on September 10, 2023 10:42AMEx dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge2 -
Tomasius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
...
Uh...
The problem people like the OP are complaining about isn't new players trying to learn their roles, it's veteran players abusing the role system to get shorter queues without having any intention of actually performing the role they queued for.
A "tank" who drops out of any longer (or more difficult) than average dungeon as soon as it appears (i.e. before any combat actually happens) isn't a newbie who doesn't know any better, it's a selfish jerk who is abusing the tank queue.
I didn't get that from the OP. Maybe the OP needs a rewrite.
[Also, if they're going to be picky about what dungeon they want, what on earth are they doing queuing for randoms?]
I see three problems and none of them are caused by the player:- The Dungeon finder fails to assign player preference for the type of team (e.g. farmers, exterminators, explorers, boss-hunters, bughunters, etc...)
- The dungeon finder fails to draw on the deeper player stats to rank the player in the selected role and line them up with a team of similar level and shared purpose (see #1)
- The dungeon finder specifies too limited a number of roles and, correct me if I'm wrong (and I keep not being able to find the edit button so maybe I'm missing something in the Dungeon Finder) but that dungeon finder doesn't seem to have the option for the team leader to define the size and role composition of a team (e.g. crowd oriented magicka DD, one-on-one knockdown/interruption DD, 2x alternating magicka/stamina ranged DD - which is what you need for the kind of thing I've seen most groups trying to do.)
To sum this up as a single problem; the dungeon finder's design fails to take into account the diversity of player objectives for the activity (which determines far more important things than roles, such as pace). You don't need to cast people in roles if your team share's the same objectives. That said, you also don't need to cast people in roles if the level of difficulty is too low and I solo'd one of these last night so, yeah, maybe they need to go back to a beta test group for a little balancing. Personally, I love being able to solo these but I can see it's a problem if they're not difficult enough to require a group to operate as a team.Edited by Tomasius on September 10, 2023 7:16AMEx dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
Tomasius✭✭✭
...
Is not more difficult that playing one character. The alt just gets automatically joined to the encounter in progress in most dungeons. No need to touch it at all except maybe if you feel like it a couple of light attacks on the boss just in case.
This is not about effectively controlling two accounts, this is about either completely skipping the queue without having to queue as a 'fake' role or in some egregious cases I have encountered getting other people to literally carry one of your accounts, whether they want or not.
OK. I can see how that'd work but without a way for the team leader to ask the system to add another player to the team, it probably wouldn't do too well if the dungeon is balanced for a 4 player team at your level.
I'm uncomfortable with a queue that takes longer than 15 seconds to process. It feels like it's hung most of the time. Also, running around doing something else while the queue is processing is a fantastic QoL feature but it still leaves the problem of what happens when the player becomes committed to another activity and then has to decline the group because, quite frankly, the queue processed too late. This can't be helping wait times, either.
My personal favourite way to jump the queue (which is a great way for vets to get instant access) is go straight to the group dungeon entrance and dive in without the dungeon finder. It gives you choice of dungeon and, if I can solo one of these on a low 30's character, a vet wouldn't notice the difference if a team is present or absent.
Yes, spending two hours soloing a group dungeon is more attractive to me than waiting for an uncomfortably long period of time for queue processing to complete, or hang, or run out of session time; just so I can shoulder the burden of missing all the content while I keep up with the speed runners it so helpfully picked for me to join.
My point is that a lack of motivation to participate in group dungeon activities (reasons above as just a few of many examples) can't be helping queue times or, for that matter, player patience with the system.Edited by Tomasius on September 10, 2023 10:43AMEx dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0
