Can we get an IC "Experiment"

DrNukenstein · August 2023

Not new pvp content, but an experiment to revitalize imperial city PVP. Just a couple knobs to turn on one of these upcoming PTS cycles.

-respawn anywhere. If a district is hot, keep the action moving. Let people respawn where the action is regardless of whether their team controls the flag

-Add transmute geodes to the telvar vendor. If someone needs 5 more to put that set together today, they might be encouraged to close it out in IC

-Limit party size to 4. The only thing worse than an empty IC is an IC overrun by one guild strip mining it and chasing down solos/small scalers 12:1

-Make the dailies more rewarding. Twice as much tel var to start. Longer term, I think some of the dailies like Elven Gardens should be redesigned since they are so griefable and are probably a big source of why the unitiated sour on IC so hard.

-Turn the flags off every weekend and double tel var to make the flag multiplier standard. Weekend mayhem, it sounds great. Much less exploitable than BG mode weekends (other than death match)

-add a BG's vendor to the sewer bases. If you use those potions, it would be a small QOL boost to not have to leave IC to buy more.

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

pretty much all of the dailies that require going to fixed points to interact with something could be camped by a griefer (i think at least 3 of the districts do this)

the best dailies are arena and arboretum, the memorial one is ok

the other 3 pretty much all require you to go to fixed spots (temple and elven gardens are probably the worst about this, nobles district isnt too much better)

definite agree on first suggestion, the 2nd suggestion would help those who are mainly farming tel var instead of pvping since already get a fair amount from rewards of the worthy (maybe additional rewards could be given from some type of tel var leaderboard, but i dont know how it should track tel var considering how you can gain/lose it)

double tel var weekends also sounds fun too lol

i dont think i would want the grouping though, a lot of the problem with zergs chasing down small scale groups is because of the way the respawn system on the surface lends itself to zerging, besides limiting the team size wont stop zerging, people can be ungrouped and zerg, or still use voice comms so limiting the team size will do little to nothing in regards of preventing Xv1 behavior

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

Someone added a similar idea in the current "PvE IC" thread, but I'd like to see a return to the 80% telvar steal on kills, limited to while you have a 4x modifier. You could simultaneously lower the amount of telvar from player kill with a 1x modifier to discourage low risk ganking too, which might help ease some frustrations non-PvPers have with the zone.

gariondavey · August 2023

Love the idea, myself and many others have been advocating for most or all of these changes for years

DrNukenstein · August 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont think i would want the grouping though, a lot of the problem with zergs chasing down small scale groups is because of the way the respawn system on the surface lends itself to zerging, besides limiting the team size wont stop zerging, people can be ungrouped and zerg, or still use voice comms so limiting the team size will do little to nothing in regards of preventing Xv1 behavior

It would have an effect on how many people can benefit from one support player and how many people can coordinate with one crown. People can organize beyond 4 using discord, but they won't be sharing buffs like they do now and they'll be more likely to lose focus.

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont think i would want the grouping though, a lot of the problem with zergs chasing down small scale groups is because of the way the respawn system on the surface lends itself to zerging, besides limiting the team size wont stop zerging, people can be ungrouped and zerg, or still use voice comms so limiting the team size will do little to nothing in regards of preventing Xv1 behavior

It would have an effect on how many people can benefit from one support player and how many people can coordinate with one crown. People can organize beyond 4 using discord, but they won't be sharing buffs like they do now and they'll be more likely to lose focus.

that wont prevent the biggest buff share of all, heal stacking (radiating regen and echoing vigor both dont require teaming)

not to mention it would be easier to maintain those in IC due to the close quarters

DrNukenstein · August 2023

Then everyone likes rallying cry and the rallying cry's will be split less ways.

I guess it would be more symbolic than effective. Saying "this is small pvp town, if you don't like it go ride around in Cyrodil"

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Then everyone likes rallying cry and the rallying cry's will be split less ways.

I guess it would be more symbolic than effective. Saying "this is small pvp town, if you don't like it go ride around in Cyrodil"

yup that too, rally cry is probably most effective in a group of 4 or less

im thinking of it more from a spot of inconveniencing a group of people trying to hang out together, i sometimes run around with a guild in IC (certainly not a pvp focus guild though), but having a group of 4 would make it significantly less fun if there happened to be more than 4 who wanted to group together for fun

i still see people complaining about the current 12 man group limit for either open casual cyro groups, or even people trying to RP/guild event in pve

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont think i would want the grouping though, a lot of the problem with zergs chasing down small scale groups is because of the way the respawn system on the surface lends itself to zerging, besides limiting the team size wont stop zerging, people can be ungrouped and zerg, or still use voice comms so limiting the team size will do little to nothing in regards of preventing Xv1 behavior

It would have an effect on how many people can benefit from one support player and how many people can coordinate with one crown. People can organize beyond 4 using discord, but they won't be sharing buffs like they do now and they'll be more likely to lose focus.

that wont prevent the biggest buff share of all, heal stacking (radiating regen and echoing vigor both dont require teaming)

not to mention it would be easier to maintain those in IC due to the close quarters

It kinda would though - in a group size of 4 or fewer Echoing Vigor is weaker than Resolving Vigor. Sure groups could just stand close to each other, but you can already do that in both open world PvP environments and this would still help the problem even if it doesn't solve it completely.

kojou · August 2023

The limit of a group of 4 would only work if they changed the model from alliance vs alliance to group vs group (which I would be all for). That way if 8 players queued up for IC they would be spawned in 2 groups of 4 and have to fight each other instead of just being able to zerg up and farm.

IxSTALKERxI · August 2023

imo a group size limit of 6 would make more sense in IC than 4. A lot of the game mechanics are balanced around numbers of 6, both abilities and flipping flags.

IC definately needs some kind of revamp. Maybe there can be a leaderboard taking track of telvar earned minus telvar lost. With leaderboard rewards like how there is for trail leaderboards / pvp leaderboards /tales of tribute leaderboard etc.

Jazraena · August 2023

I don't think limiting group size is going to do IC population any favours, honestly. Groups are the only way some people even want to go there.

The inherent issue of IC is that ontop of the already extremely rough access curve of ESO PvP you have a setup that is designed around being an extremely punitive gankfest in which you even lose things on dying. An egoshooter match with invisibility, death costs, no guarantee of at least numerical equality and expensive and complicated character setup. Oh, and you're supposed to worry about all that while also fighting NPCs.

I don't believe IC can be made popular in a way that would please people currently enjoying it tbh.

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

imo a group size limit of 6 would make more sense in IC than 4. A lot of the game mechanics are balanced around numbers of 6, both abilities and flipping flags.

IC definately needs some kind of revamp. Maybe there can be a leaderboard taking track of telvar earned minus telvar lost. With leaderboard rewards like how there is for trail leaderboards / pvp leaderboards /tales of tribute leaderboard etc.

the flags in IC dont flip faster with more people (another minor annoyance i have)

if you have 1 person or 6 on the flag, it still flips at the same rate (the rate for 1 person)

Dr_Con · August 2023

I'm likely in the minority, but I think IC activity should have some impact in Cyrodiil, potentially to spawn a daedric artifact (ex. Molag Bal killed 100 times in CP-IC, chance to spawn Mace of Molag Bal somewhere in Cyrodiil after each kill in each CP campaign).

I think it would be cool to see multiple artifacts spawning at different timing intervals and potentially being able to be triggered. Right now we have Volendrung that spawns ~5 hours and it is a delight to see fights over it.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

Dr_Con wrote: »

I'm likely in the minority, but I think IC activity should have some impact in Cyrodiil, potentially to spawn a daedric artifact (ex. Molag Bal killed 100 times in CP-IC, chance to spawn Mace of Molag Bal somewhere in Cyrodiil after each kill in each CP campaign).

I think it would be cool to see multiple artifacts spawning at different timing intervals and potentially being able to be triggered. Right now we have Volendrung that spawns ~5 hours and it is a delight to see fights over it.

Likely won't happen ever since they severed IC from Cyrodiil. Populations mean that there need to be more servers for Cyrodiil than IC, so tying 2 IC campaigns to 4 Cyrodiil campaigns just wouldn't work without major overhauls to how the campaigns are organized.

SCP343 · August 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

-respawn anywhere. If a district is hot, keep the action moving. Let people respawn where the action is regardless of whether their team controls the flag

No its clearly unfair people needs to reset their combat after some fights. just imagine you are fighting agaist big group (no need to be group lets say zerg) once you kill them they come again and again with full sustain especially healers how can you kill that group or how can you end the fight? well ofc intentionally dying is option for sure but then why people want to lose their telvar which they hardly gained

[/quote]
-Add transmute geodes to the telvar vendor. If someone needs 5 more to put that set together today, they might be encouraged to close it out in IC
[/quote]
there is something like this already you gain ap from killing players and capturing districts and every 25k ap you get 1 rewards of worthy its not that much compared to cyro but its honest work

[/quote]
-Limit party size to 4. The only thing worse than an empty IC is an IC overrun by one guild strip mining it and chasing down solos/small scalers 12:1
[/quote]
Bad idea what can you do agaist zergs then? or what if you and your friends are 5 or 6? Sure you still can bomb them but sometimes your dmg is just not enough you always need extra one more dmg souce one snergy or one more heal to survive
agaist enemy dps. about big groups and zergs they already geting penalized by spliting telvar with group members. if they are more crowded than you nothing you can do tbh some people just wants to enjoy pvp and they cant play cyrodiil sometimes and queue to ic all you need to do is respect them and leave imperial city to them if you feel like Sisyphus they will get bored due to no pvp and penalized telvar gain XD
[/quote]
-Make the dailies more rewarding. Twice as much tel var to start. Longer term, I think some of the dailies like Elven Gardens should be redesigned since they are so griefable and are probably a big source of why the unitiated sour on IC so hard.
[/quote]
that is what i agree with you daily rewards needs to be improved they add really nice motifs that is only acquirable by daily quests... thing is its account wide so once you do 1 misssion even if you swap character you cant get another siege trophy

[/quote]
-Turn the flags off every weekend and double tel var to make the flag multiplier standard. Weekend mayhem, it sounds great. Much less exploitable than BG mode weekends (other than death match)
[/quote]
-add a BG's vendor to the sewer bases. If you use those potions, it would be a small QOL boost to not have to leave IC to buy more.[/quote]
would be nice even claiming districts and puting guild stores on their allience spawn haha xd

TX12001rwb17_ESO · August 2023

You mention adding a BG vendor but that does beg the question, why do you gain Alliance Points for doing Battlegrounds, a form of PvP that has nothing to do with serving your alliance and 9/10 you will be allies with at least 1 person from another alliance.

Imagine becoming a Grand Overlord without ever setting foot into Cyrodiil or the Imperial City?

NuarBlack · August 2023

Jazraena wrote: »

I don't think limiting group size is going to do IC population any favours, honestly. Groups are the only way some people even want to go there.

The inherent issue of IC is that ontop of the already extremely rough access curve of ESO PvP you have a setup that is designed around being an extremely punitive gankfest in which you even lose things on dying. An egoshooter match with invisibility, death costs, no guarantee of at least numerical equality and expensive and complicated character setup. Oh, and you're supposed to worry about all that while also fighting NPCs.

I don't believe IC can be made popular in a way that would please people currently enjoying it tbh.

That's the thing, current enjoyers shouldn't be catered too. Maybe if it was thriving but it is on life support. This is what killed cyro and ESO pvp in general, was catering to zerglings and 1vXers instead of creating modes like battlegrounds sooner that had lower barriers to entry and made learning pvp as a solo player easier so they stuck around instead of getting ganked by a zerg or blown up by a max CP no lifer to where they quit trying pvp modes all together.

IC just needs to be made into the small scale CP enabled pvp mode. Tel Var stones could probably be just deleted all together. It's an elitist system that only serves the 1% of players while making it entirely unappealing to most players unless they can find a zerg to ride. Change all rewards to AP and you get IC specific coffers for time spent in IC and for capturing objectives and killing bosses.

A full revamp, which is unlikely, would be to make IC a type of Moba hybrid to keep the pvevp flavor.

DrNukenstein · August 2023

NuarBlack wrote: »

Moba hybrid.

If they make a 2 team lane pushing mode where you win resources from "successful conflicts" and spend those on game mode specific power ups, contest timed PvEvP objectives, and destroy towers all in pursuit of dunking the enemy nexus then:

They can close this thread and take all my money.

Amottica · August 2023

It would not be a good experiment. If it leads to an improvement then there is no way of knowing which points are good and which ideas are bad. As such it seems more like just another suggestion to change IC overall since I do not see how any of the points actually make IC more interesting.

Dojohoda · August 2023

I like Doc's ideas.

DrNukenstein · August 2023

Amottica wrote: »

It would not be a good experiment. If it leads to an improvement then there is no way of knowing which points are good and which ideas are bad. As such it seems more like just another suggestion to change IC overall since I do not see how any of the points actually make IC more interesting.

I totally disagree. Almost each proposed adjustment has trackable player metrics associated with it. Things like:

-How many groups of how many players participated in this content over time.
-How many people bought transmutes from that vendor, how many also used the transmute station shortly after
-How many players participated in what dailies over time
-How many players were active in IC when the flags were turned off
-How many in district respawns occurred over time

Any increase over current metrics would confirm improvement, and where. They log inputs. Ofcourse they log content engagement too.

endgamesmug · August 2023

The medal slog is huge for the outfit styles, im currently doing the one daily per day ridiculousness(got another 70 days to go!😆) on the nb for the sake of efficiency. Youll rarely run into me because im in stealth the whole time, which just adds to the whole deserted look of ic. It doesnt make any sense at all to do anything else as telvar isnt worth the hassle, youll get pestered to pvp by some thirsty dueller and/or you get ganked while doing that!😆

NuarBlack · August 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Moba hybrid.

If they make a 2 team lane pushing mode where you win resources from "successful conflicts" and spend those on game mode specific power ups, contest timed PvEvP objectives, and destroy towers all in pursuit of dunking the enemy nexus then:

They can close this thread and take all my money.

Honestly kinda surprised the mode never gained traction in MMO'S seeing as moba games, especially league, drew from MMO'S in the first place. Alterac Valley in WoW had moba type elements that just never got fleshed out and got thrown out with the bath water. Surprised no one came back after league and Dota refined the concepts and put them into an MMO pvp mode.

Not sure if IC is the right place for such a mode other than it lacks any real identity and already has flags and PVE mobs that could be altered to fit the game mode. Tel Var could just become the game mode currency if you really want to keep it and have it operate the same way as it does now. More you turn in at a time the bigger the buff or allied NPC's it spawns. That way there is risk/reward to it while creating general AP rewards and coffers that have the current IC rewards so players feel like the mode respects their time relative to other activities. Probably a long shot though as I suspect Zos thinks the monster helm sets were incentive enough.

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

NuarBlack wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Moba hybrid.

If they make a 2 team lane pushing mode where you win resources from "successful conflicts" and spend those on game mode specific power ups, contest timed PvEvP objectives, and destroy towers all in pursuit of dunking the enemy nexus then:

They can close this thread and take all my money.

Honestly kinda surprised the mode never gained traction in MMO'S seeing as moba games, especially league, drew from MMO'S in the first place. Alterac Valley in WoW had moba type elements that just never got fleshed out and got thrown out with the bath water. Surprised no one came back after league and Dota refined the concepts and put them into an MMO pvp mode.

Not sure if IC is the right place for such a mode other than it lacks any real identity and already has flags and PVE mobs that could be altered to fit the game mode. Tel Var could just become the game mode currency if you really want to keep it and have it operate the same way as it does now. More you turn in at a time the bigger the buff or allied NPC's it spawns. That way there is risk/reward to it while creating general AP rewards and coffers that have the current IC rewards so players feel like the mode respects their time relative to other activities. Probably a long shot though as I suspect Zos thinks the monster helm sets were incentive enough.

if they added that, i think it would likely be in addition to, or replace, battlegrounds since they are already instanced so a map could be made for a moba style gameplay

i agree it wouldnt work for IC

DrNukenstein · August 2023

Not a moba mode in IC, a moba mode for the sweaters that are sad there is no action in IC.

Amottica · August 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

It would not be a good experiment. If it leads to an improvement then there is no way of knowing which points are good and which ideas are bad. As such it seems more like just another suggestion to change IC overall since I do not see how any of the points actually make IC more interesting.

I totally disagree. Almost each proposed adjustment has trackable player metrics associated with it. Things like:

-How many groups of how many players participated in this content over time.
-How many people bought transmutes from that vendor, how many also used the transmute station shortly after
-How many players participated in what dailies over time
-How many players were active in IC when the flags were turned off
-How many in district respawns occurred over time

Any increase over current metrics would confirm improvement, and where. They log inputs. Ofcourse they log content engagement too.

I respect your opinion differing from my statement, however, the fact is if the population and activity in IC were to increase it cannot be individually measured to determine which ones were actually effective.

This is a fact of the scientific process. Not an opinion. Change one variable and see what effect it has. If many variables are changed there is no way to know which had a positive effect and which had negative effects and which did nothing material.

I will use the example of a measurement that is suggested, that somehow an increased activity when flags are turned off shows it is a successful change. In reality, that is boring and the increased activity on those weekends would be due to the double Tel var on those same weekends. As such, the suggested measurement is likely unworthy.

In reality, the only interesting suggestion that would make a difference is to double Tel var and even then it would just draw players in on those weekends as has been proven to happen when events have doubled Tel Var. Maybe if more players had shown interest in the suggested test my point would be hollow.