EU Trade Needs Inflation

disintegr8 · August 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

You realize I've been playing for 8 years and I only have 2mil in the bank?

That would be because you either don't focus on things that earn gold or spend a lot of gold. You can't complain about being poor if you do either of these.

Simply doing daily crafting writs on one character would bring in 120k plus per month. You don't need to do high level writs or use expensive materials. Do that on 3 or 4 characters and you're nearing 500k a month.

Nobody can complain about gold being hard to come by in ESO.

Amottica · August 2023

disintegr8 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You realize I've been playing for 8 years and I only have 2mil in the bank?

That would be because you either don't focus on things that earn gold or spend a lot of gold. You can't complain about being poor if you do either of these.

Simply doing daily crafting writs on one character would bring in 120k plus per month. You don't need to do high level writs or use expensive materials. Do that on 3 or 4 characters and you're nearing 500k a month.

Nobody can complain about gold being hard to come by in ESO.

I agree. I have been playing for far less time and have several times what they have banked. Granted, I am on NA but I have been playing for 1/3 of the time they have.

hrothbern · August 2023

If you spend more than you earn, everything is too expensive.
Charles Dickens used a lot of lines on that in his David Copperfield

And spending money above what you get from just playing will indeed need you to spend time on earning,
money does not grow on trees
(except ofc for players farming nodes while mats prices are high)

hrothbern · August 2023

And a bit more serious

Consideration 1:
IF on PC EU there are more players who like to have more money on their own bank account for that rainy day and on PC NA there are more players who like to use that money by spending on nice things or building up mats assets as long term investment

you have in PC EU a money sink by players besides the ones of ZOS
less money circulating

and you have in PC NA an mats assets sink
less items in circulation

adding that up:
In PC EU less circulating money for more circulating items => lower prices for items
In PC NA more circulating money for less circulating items => higher prices

Consideration 2:
Even if PC NA would have the same number of players...
When for example on PC EU there are relatively more players with developed accounts including many daily writs etc and/or relatively more players already having enough goldened sets for what they need
and on PC NA there are more new players not having that many daily writs and still hungry in trying out more sets
=> supply in NA lower and demand higher
Just from a differing player base demographics

And really... I can list up so many more player base characteristics that influence "inflation"

and to really understand "inflation" in ESO at all we would need much more solid data (that ZOS has in its database)

consideration 3:
IRL "inflation" is measured by composing "baskets" of goods that are most of all bought by the people of a region or country.
Lots of research and discussion also on the composition of that basket BECAUSE it determines the general inflation number.

But reality is that inflation is for every subgroup different:
people never going on a holiday by plane will not have in their inflation basket that aircraft carriers increase or decrease prices.
people never using a car will not have in their inflation basket that petrol goes up or down.

In general different income groups with different main spending patterns need their own basket composition to have their inflation measured fairly.
Unfortunately simplicity trumps leading to 1 official inflation number for all.
The result is many discussions on inflation being a waste of time

Here in ESO the inflation felt by a player mainly doing lore and social can be, will be very different from a new hero in trials or pvp.
People in a hurry to get it all... "I want it now"... will have another inflation, will face far more price jumps and bubbles than players who have patience or just take it easy

To really say and compare something you need to be specific

The only general understanding that imo applies is that it is all supply and demand,
whereby this supply and demand varies for every sub market of the game

wolfie1.0. · August 2023

So general word of advice to anyone trying to accumulate large quantities of gold in this game.

First, understand that outside of the crown store anything that can be sold or traded in game can be farmed without spending gold. You just have to commit to the time and skills.

Second, look at where you are spending your gold. Often when I see players complain about lack of gold they are spending needlessly on items that if they dedicate a bit more time to getting they wouldn't have a gold issue.

If obtaining gold is your concern and focus then inflation is your enemy, not your friend.

Also, you need to disconnect crown to gold conversion prices from the in game economy a bit. Think of it this way, generally speaking motifs are a depreciating asset as more and more players consume them the demand goes down, the only cases in which they don't is if they are hard to source or if players are no longer doing the content needed to obtain them. This logic applies to crowns even more.

XSTRONG · August 2023

Its quite simple, if you dont make any gold you cant buy expensive stuff.

You dont need to farm motifs or furnishing plans that are worth millions to make gold.

A steady income of gold from selling all kind of items in traders means you will have gold when you need to buy stuff.

Amottica · August 2023

hrothbern wrote: »

And a bit more serious

Consideration 1:
IF on PC EU there are more players who like to have more money on their own bank account for that rainy day and on PC NA there are more players who like to use that money by spending on nice things or building up mats assets as long term investment

you have in PC EU a money sink by players besides the ones of ZOS
less money circulating

and you have in PC NA an mats assets sink
less items in circulation

adding that up:
In PC EU less circulating money for more circulating items => lower prices for items
In PC NA more circulating money for less circulating items => higher prices

Consideration 2:
Even if PC NA would have the same number of players...
When for example on PC EU there are relatively more players with developed accounts including many daily writs etc and/or relatively more players already having enough goldened sets for what they need
and on PC NA there are more new players not having that many daily writs and still hungry in trying out more sets
=> supply in NA lower and demand higher
Just from a differing player base demographics

And really... I can list up so many more player base characteristics that influence "inflation"

and to really understand "inflation" in ESO at all we would need much more solid data (that ZOS has in its database)

consideration 3:
IRL "inflation" is measured by composing "baskets" of goods that are most of all bought by the people of a region or country.
Lots of research and discussion also on the composition of that basket BECAUSE it determines the general inflation number.

But reality is that inflation is for every subgroup different:
people never going on a holiday by plane will not have in their inflation basket that aircraft carriers increase or decrease prices.
people never using a car will not have in their inflation basket that petrol goes up or down.

In general different income groups with different main spending patterns need their own basket composition to have their inflation measured fairly.
Unfortunately simplicity trumps leading to 1 official inflation number for all.
The result is many discussions on inflation being a waste of time

Here in ESO the inflation felt by a player mainly doing lore and social can be, will be very different from a new hero in trials or pvp.
People in a hurry to get it all... "I want it now"... will have another inflation, will face far more price jumps and bubbles than players who have patience or just take it easy

To really say and compare something you need to be specific

The only general understanding that imo applies is that it is all supply and demand,
whereby this supply and demand varies for every sub market of the game

It is not this difficult. The price relationship comes down to what I have already stated, supply and demand.

Supply and demand are not constant across servers. There will be more farmers on one server than another or even less demand for items on a server.

For the price to increase there must be fewer players farming the items to sell and/or more players seeking to buy the items.

There are likely whales on both servers (wealth of gold banked) who can afford to buy anything they want but they are wise with their gold and sourcing what they need which is why they bank so much gold vs spending it.

zaria · August 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

Jhava wrote: »

What the OP is talking about.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641227/differences-in-gold-between-pc-servers

That thread starts off with a false premise:

"Why is there such a major difference between gold earnings between the servers, from traders & crown sales?
For example, using TCC website/ingame/ a stack of 200x iron ingots, For both, i'm using the average price
NA: 24.81 Gold
EU: 14.15 Gold

There's a major difference, it also mans EU players earns far less gold while its easier to earn plenty of gold on NA"

Earning gold on either server is the same as far as game mechanics go. We get the same amount on each server for doing writs and all that fun stuff. The differences come down to player behavior and player numbers. I don't think there is a problem at all but if there is the problem isn't game related but player created.
We shouldn't be comparing the two economies. If we must compare then you have to consider buying power of gold for in game items. Buying homes and items from vendors would be about the only place where there is a difference in buying power.

I wonder if guild trader rent is different. If its less competition for good trading spots prices will be lower and trader rent is probably an major gold sink.

hrothbern · August 2023

Amottica wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

And a bit more serious

Consideration 1:
IF on PC EU there are more players who like to have more money on their own bank account for that rainy day and on PC NA there are more players who like to use that money by spending on nice things or building up mats assets as long term investment

you have in PC EU a money sink by players besides the ones of ZOS
less money circulating

and you have in PC NA an mats assets sink
less items in circulation

adding that up:
In PC EU less circulating money for more circulating items => lower prices for items
In PC NA more circulating money for less circulating items => higher prices

Consideration 2:
Even if PC NA would have the same number of players...
When for example on PC EU there are relatively more players with developed accounts including many daily writs etc and/or relatively more players already having enough goldened sets for what they need
and on PC NA there are more new players not having that many daily writs and still hungry in trying out more sets
=> supply in NA lower and demand higher
Just from a differing player base demographics

And really... I can list up so many more player base characteristics that influence "inflation"

and to really understand "inflation" in ESO at all we would need much more solid data (that ZOS has in its database)

consideration 3:
IRL "inflation" is measured by composing "baskets" of goods that are most of all bought by the people of a region or country.
Lots of research and discussion also on the composition of that basket BECAUSE it determines the general inflation number.

But reality is that inflation is for every subgroup different:
people never going on a holiday by plane will not have in their inflation basket that aircraft carriers increase or decrease prices.
people never using a car will not have in their inflation basket that petrol goes up or down.

In general different income groups with different main spending patterns need their own basket composition to have their inflation measured fairly.
Unfortunately simplicity trumps leading to 1 official inflation number for all.
The result is many discussions on inflation being a waste of time

Here in ESO the inflation felt by a player mainly doing lore and social can be, will be very different from a new hero in trials or pvp.
People in a hurry to get it all... "I want it now"... will have another inflation, will face far more price jumps and bubbles than players who have patience or just take it easy

To really say and compare something you need to be specific

The only general understanding that imo applies is that it is all supply and demand,
whereby this supply and demand varies for every sub market of the game

It is not this difficult. The price relationship comes down to what I have already stated, supply and demand.

Supply and demand are not constant across servers. There will be more farmers on one server than another or even less demand for items on a server.

For the price to increase there must be fewer players farming the items to sell and/or more players seeking to buy the items.

There are likely whales on both servers (wealth of gold banked) who can afford to buy anything they want but they are wise with their gold and sourcing what they need which is why they bank so much gold vs spending it.

Read my post better
I end with:
"The only general understanding that imo applies is that it is all supply and demand,
whereby this supply and demand varies for every sub market of the game"

Understanding customer profiles and the variety of sub markets is a critical success factor of any commercial company.
In ESO this is all there and the events change all the time the behavior of playersand therefore the dynamics of all the sub markets.
In fact very interesting if you have an eye for it
(and want to look with that precision and discrimination)

SeaGtGruff · August 2023

CrashTest wrote: »

PC EU is so low pop compared to NA. If you want prices to go up on PC EU then get more players there. There's no point in raising prices to match PC NA if no one is buying what you're selling.

I always thought that the PC EU server had more players than the PC NA server? I have no idea of actual numbers, but in past years whenever there were complaints about the performance of the PC EU server being posted in the forums, I thought that one of the complaints was that PC EU has a larger population than PC NA, yet (people were claiming that) ZOS gave PC NA more attention than PC EU?

There could be various reasons why things cost more at PC NA guild traders than at PC EU guild traders. For one thing, I have a suspicion that there may be more players spending their gold on Crowns (paying other players to gift Crown Store items, such as DLCs) on PC EU than on PC NA. That could mean there's a higher demand for Crowns, driving up the Crowns:Gold prices, coupled with less spending at guild traders, which would help keep prices at guild traders down since there aren't enough players willing to shovel out large amounts of gold at guild traders on PC EU as there apparently are on PC NA.

kargen27 · August 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

PC EU is so low pop compared to NA. If you want prices to go up on PC EU then get more players there. There's no point in raising prices to match PC NA if no one is buying what you're selling.

I always thought that the PC EU server had more players than the PC NA server? I have no idea of actual numbers, but in past years whenever there were complaints about the performance of the PC EU server being posted in the forums, I thought that one of the complaints was that PC EU has a larger population than PC NA, yet (people were claiming that) ZOS gave PC NA more attention than PC EU?

There could be various reasons why things cost more at PC NA guild traders than at PC EU guild traders. For one thing, I have a suspicion that there may be more players spending their gold on Crowns (paying other players to gift Crown Store items, such as DLCs) on PC EU than on PC NA. That could mean there's a higher demand for Crowns, driving up the Crowns:Gold prices, coupled with less spending at guild traders, which would help keep prices at guild traders down since there aren't enough players willing to shovel out large amounts of gold at guild traders on PC EU as there apparently are on PC NA.

Spending their gold on crown items wouldn't remove gold from the server. Someone else would have that gold to spend on other items. The crowns/gold ration exists based on circumstances outside the game.

SeaGtGruff · August 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

PC EU is so low pop compared to NA. If you want prices to go up on PC EU then get more players there. There's no point in raising prices to match PC NA if no one is buying what you're selling.

I always thought that the PC EU server had more players than the PC NA server? I have no idea of actual numbers, but in past years whenever there were complaints about the performance of the PC EU server being posted in the forums, I thought that one of the complaints was that PC EU has a larger population than PC NA, yet (people were claiming that) ZOS gave PC NA more attention than PC EU?

There could be various reasons why things cost more at PC NA guild traders than at PC EU guild traders. For one thing, I have a suspicion that there may be more players spending their gold on Crowns (paying other players to gift Crown Store items, such as DLCs) on PC EU than on PC NA. That could mean there's a higher demand for Crowns, driving up the Crowns:Gold prices, coupled with less spending at guild traders, which would help keep prices at guild traders down since there aren't enough players willing to shovel out large amounts of gold at guild traders on PC EU as there apparently are on PC NA.

Spending their gold on crown items wouldn't remove gold from the server. Someone else would have that gold to spend on other items. The crowns/gold ration exists based on circumstances outside the game.

But the gold would be in different hands. Whose hands? What do those hands spend their gold on? Do they spend it at guild traders, or do they pump it into gold sinks, or do they just hoard it, etc.?

kargen27 · August 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

PC EU is so low pop compared to NA. If you want prices to go up on PC EU then get more players there. There's no point in raising prices to match PC NA if no one is buying what you're selling.

I always thought that the PC EU server had more players than the PC NA server? I have no idea of actual numbers, but in past years whenever there were complaints about the performance of the PC EU server being posted in the forums, I thought that one of the complaints was that PC EU has a larger population than PC NA, yet (people were claiming that) ZOS gave PC NA more attention than PC EU?

There could be various reasons why things cost more at PC NA guild traders than at PC EU guild traders. For one thing, I have a suspicion that there may be more players spending their gold on Crowns (paying other players to gift Crown Store items, such as DLCs) on PC EU than on PC NA. That could mean there's a higher demand for Crowns, driving up the Crowns:Gold prices, coupled with less spending at guild traders, which would help keep prices at guild traders down since there aren't enough players willing to shovel out large amounts of gold at guild traders on PC EU as there apparently are on PC NA.

Spending their gold on crown items wouldn't remove gold from the server. Someone else would have that gold to spend on other items. The crowns/gold ration exists based on circumstances outside the game.

But the gold would be in different hands. Whose hands? What do those hands spend their gold on? Do they spend it at guild traders, or do they pump it into gold sinks, or do they just hoard it, etc.?

I would assume all of the above just like other players in the game. I doubt they are hoarding though as why sell crowns if you are just going to sit on the gold? Good chance the players spending gold on crowns were sitting on a pile and had nothing else to spend it on.

kargen27 · August 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

You realize I've been playing for 8 years and I only have 2mil in the bank?

I have one character on the EU server. I for the most part do quests and participate in events. I have a total play time on that character of 16 days 5 hours and have just over seven million gold. Lucky drops during an event is the bulk of that gold.

Amottica · August 2023

Amottica wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

And a bit more serious

Consideration 1:
IF on PC EU there are more players who like to have more money on their own bank account for that rainy day and on PC NA there are more players who like to use that money by spending on nice things or building up mats assets as long term investment

you have in PC EU a money sink by players besides the ones of ZOS
less money circulating

and you have in PC NA an mats assets sink
less items in circulation

adding that up:
In PC EU less circulating money for more circulating items => lower prices for items
In PC NA more circulating money for less circulating items => higher prices

Consideration 2:
Even if PC NA would have the same number of players...
When for example on PC EU there are relatively more players with developed accounts including many daily writs etc and/or relatively more players already having enough goldened sets for what they need
and on PC NA there are more new players not having that many daily writs and still hungry in trying out more sets
=> supply in NA lower and demand higher
Just from a differing player base demographics

And really... I can list up so many more player base characteristics that influence "inflation"

and to really understand "inflation" in ESO at all we would need much more solid data (that ZOS has in its database)

consideration 3:
IRL "inflation" is measured by composing "baskets" of goods that are most of all bought by the people of a region or country.
Lots of research and discussion also on the composition of that basket BECAUSE it determines the general inflation number.

But reality is that inflation is for every subgroup different:
people never going on a holiday by plane will not have in their inflation basket that aircraft carriers increase or decrease prices.
people never using a car will not have in their inflation basket that petrol goes up or down.

In general different income groups with different main spending patterns need their own basket composition to have their inflation measured fairly.
Unfortunately simplicity trumps leading to 1 official inflation number for all.
The result is many discussions on inflation being a waste of time

Here in ESO the inflation felt by a player mainly doing lore and social can be, will be very different from a new hero in trials or pvp.
People in a hurry to get it all... "I want it now"... will have another inflation, will face far more price jumps and bubbles than players who have patience or just take it easy

To really say and compare something you need to be specific

The only general understanding that imo applies is that it is all supply and demand,
whereby this supply and demand varies for every sub market of the game

It is not this difficult. The price relationship comes down to what I have already stated, supply and demand.

Supply and demand are not constant across servers. There will be more farmers on one server than another or even less demand for items on a server.

For the price to increase there must be fewer players farming the items to sell and/or more players seeking to buy the items.

There are likely whales on both servers (wealth of gold banked) who can afford to buy anything they want but they are wise with their gold and sourcing what they need which is why they bank so much gold vs spending it.

Apologies and thanks for clarifying. What seemed to be a starting premise suggesting that less availability on PC EU lead to lower prices threw me off since it only comes down to Supply and Demand and less about how much money is available.

Zodiarkslayer · August 2023

Amottica wrote: »

... What seemed to be a starting premise suggesting that less availability on PC EU lead to lower prices threw me off since it only comes down to Supply and Demand and less about how much money is available.

Agreed. That whole nonsens of a macroeconomic inflation in this game is infuriating.
For practical reasons, the amount of gold in game needs to be viewed as infinite, because there are myriads of ways how gold gets into game by thousands of players every day. But only a couple few ways out. And the biggest one only happens once a week (trader bids).
And it has been like this from the beginning, nine years ago.

We have supply and demand, only not as pure as we might think. There are a lot of diluting factors. One is the simple fact that we are not dealing in commodities, but luxuries.
Another that most can hord their purchases to sell them moths later, with horrendous profits. There are literally no costs of storage, which is impossible in real life.
The longer one thinks about it, the more factors one can come up with.

Toanis · August 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The Trading Guild system was clearly designed with some kind of rotation in mind, so that guilds would swap places or lose spot in favour of other guild. But what is happening is that it is not the case and that imho (again, my unpopular opinion) guilds are kinda causing the inflation themselves. Personally, If I buy stuff, last thing I care about is the name of the guild and what guild is it I am buying from. All I care about is for the price to be at least reasonable.

Of course the guild trader system is allowing guilds to dictate prices, with gatekepping for small sellers and window shopping being extremely inconvenient for the average joe. Trading guilds are actually very well implemented, exactly how guilds worked IRL. (Except that medieval guilds provided a social safety net for their members, and bore the full risk of the goods getting lost)

Maybe it's time for the alliance leaders to nationalise trade...

Amottica · August 2023

Toanis wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The Trading Guild system was clearly designed with some kind of rotation in mind, so that guilds would swap places or lose spot in favour of other guild. But what is happening is that it is not the case and that imho (again, my unpopular opinion) guilds are kinda causing the inflation themselves. Personally, If I buy stuff, last thing I care about is the name of the guild and what guild is it I am buying from. All I care about is for the price to be at least reasonable.

Of course the guild trader system is allowing guilds to dictate prices, with gatekepping for small sellers and window shopping being extremely inconvenient for the average joe. Trading guilds are actually very well implemented, exactly how guilds worked IRL. (Except that medieval guilds provided a social safety net for their members, and bore the full risk of the goods getting lost)

Maybe it's time for the alliance leaders to nationalise trade...

Guilds do not dictate prices. None I have been in ever cared about what price I posted an item at. I have only had a minimum in sales per week to remain in the guild which I always find easy to accomplish. Players decide what price to list items for.

Adding here.

Other players decide what those items will actually sell for.

wolfie1.0. · August 2023

I find it funny on how often we come here to argue game economics instead of playing the game.

kargen27 · August 2023

Toanis wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The Trading Guild system was clearly designed with some kind of rotation in mind, so that guilds would swap places or lose spot in favour of other guild. But what is happening is that it is not the case and that imho (again, my unpopular opinion) guilds are kinda causing the inflation themselves. Personally, If I buy stuff, last thing I care about is the name of the guild and what guild is it I am buying from. All I care about is for the price to be at least reasonable.

Of course the guild trader system is allowing guilds to dictate prices, with gatekepping for small sellers and window shopping being extremely inconvenient for the average joe. Trading guilds are actually very well implemented, exactly how guilds worked IRL. (Except that medieval guilds provided a social safety net for their members, and bore the full risk of the goods getting lost)

Maybe it's time for the alliance leaders to nationalise trade...

I've been in several trade guilds and not one has ever dictated pricing. If I want to clear inventory in a hurry I underprice my listings and they sell fairly quick. Doesn't matter to me nor the guild who bought them or what the buyer intends for the items they bought. Most have some kind of weekly requirement but a few have no requirements at all.

And there is no way they can dictate price across more than 200 traders in game.