Can someone explain why regenerating 50%+ of your health per second (HoT stacking) is allowed?

SkaraMinoc · August 2023

Coordinated group gameplay should be allowed and encouraged. But I don't understand why players are allowed to stack healing over time to the point where groups are able to regenerate 50% of their health per second or more. This isn't balanced or healthy for the game in any way. Just because 12 players group together doesn't mean they should become nearly unkillable.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

It's allowed because ZOS doesn't care. Simple innit?

SandandStars · August 2023

^^Accurate

OBJnoob · August 2023

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

SandandStars · August 2023

And yet pvp populations dwindle and remain anemic. Not saying group hots are the primary culprit, rather another entry on a long list of symptoms associated with an intermittent, weak committment to quality, balanced pvp.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

This isn't true though. HoTs quickly outpace DoTs.

Take crits for example. Critical Damage is mitigated by Critical Resistance (or from the damage dealer's point of view, their critical damage punches through a target's critical resistance).

No such interaction exists with critical healing. To quote the bloke from the commercials, "It does exactly what it says on the tin". If you have 100% Critical healing, you'll always be healing for double tooltip value on a crit. There is no way on the damage dealer's side to mitigate this.

This one, single mechanic allows HoTs to outpace DoTs and it's not even close.

There are also FAR more ways to mitigate damage and boost healing than there are ways to prevent healing even without crits - another reason HoTs will always outpace DoTs. It isn't hard to get a bazillion forms of damage mitigation and % modifiers to healing. Meanwhile, Defile is in a sorry state after the (at the time needed) nerf years ago, and Healing Absorption seems to have been abandoned entirely by the devs. (Edit: we'll have to see how the new unnamed-defile set will affect things next patch. Could help, but methinks it's just another tool to be used by ballgroups)

Edit to add: the introduction of the Arcanist has made HoTs pull away from DoTs even more. Shields work heavily in HoTs favors, and just 1 or 2 Arcanists in the group can ensure a team always has at least 10k shields up. At. All. Times. HoTs still heal while shielded, but DoTs won't even touch the healthbar. Oblivion damage used to be the counter to this, directly hurting health even while shielded, but sources of Oblivion damage have (surprise surprise) been nerfed over time and there aren't really any sources left worth running. (Snake in the Stars being the lone exception, but it has its own caveats)

But sure, HoTs and DoTs are created equal everyone.

SaffronCitrusflower · August 2023

We've been saying for years that heal stacking needs a nerf, most specifically rapid regen needs to be limited to one instance per player at a time. This is how ball groups, primarily anyway, become indestructible. Every member of the ball group back bars a healing stave and spams rapid regen. Simple.

OBJnoob · August 2023

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

chessalavakia_ESO · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

"Can't do anything about them" is generally not where you want your design to be. You want players in defeat to be thinking they'll get them next time or that they'll work on improving in x area so they can win not that they are doomed. If they feel they are doomed, they are less likely to participate and their comments on the content can turn other players off of participating.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

Because they are more balanced in 1v1s - It's much harder to stack HoTs than DoTs in a 1v1 and still have enough damage to actually win the fight. Additionally, the crit heal difference won't matter as much in a 1v1 because there will be fewer instances of the HoT ticking. However, they start to outpace DoTs rather quickly when you start to increase the instances of each.

Basically, in a 1v1 you'll generally have more DoTs than they will HoTs. Not so much in a GvG as multi-target sticky DoTs are harder to access than multi target sticky HoTs, as well as the fact that larger groups will almost always have a purge ready whenever they need it.

Also; Resolving Vigor is definitely overtuned and pretty much everyone that I PvP with (guildies, friends, etc) agrees with that. Adding Minor Resolve to it made it mandatory in group sizes < 6 (the inflection point where stacking Echoing becomes more powerful) and it heavily contributes to the tank meta.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 2023

Because healing mitigating damage is a core ESO mechanic for PVE and has been since game launch.
This being said prior to the healing springs nerf this mechanic was mainly reserved for ground HoT's which meant that positioning and prediction were really important aspects to gameplay. When they decided to nerf springs they simply replaced this need for more skilled gameplay with 'Just sticky HoT everyone' gameplay mainly due to the PVE complaints that players would no longer be able to survive in trials.
Remember that healing mitigates damage taken so that if you took a 25k hit but were healed for 8k in the same second by HoTs that hit would only hit your character for 17k which likely meant that you would survive it as a DD with 18k hp.

The healing springs meta also forced players to stack more tightly which in turn made them way more vunerable to bombs and CC, vs now you have very large radius HoT's which stick so players can spread out with no negative and the healing cannot be removed via negate (another key aspect of past gameplay).

OBJnoob · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

Also; Resolving Vigor is definitely overtuned and pretty much everyone that I PvP with (guildies, friends, etc) agrees with that. Adding Minor Resolve to it made it mandatory in group sizes < 6 (the inflection point where stacking Echoing becomes more powerful) and it heavily contributes to the tank meta.

Okay. I think I understand all that. But so I quoted this last paragraph to ask one more question. If Resolving Vigor is mandatory for all groups 6 or less... Then surely Echoing needs to continue to hit 7, right? Or what's really the point of it's existence?

And this is primarily why I've never agreed with these topics. There needs to be some benefit to having a big group and playing "meta" or what's the point? Has it gotten out of hand? Probably, but I'm not so sure this isn't also true for solo players.

I think Echoing Vigor only hits 6 people anyway, right? And you need to cast it twice to get the whole group?

Rather than limiting HoT stacks I would prefer any of these solutions:
1) If Echoing/radiating hits 6 targets then let it be 6 and only 6. Recasting to hit a new target should remove an old target simultaneously. Effectively limiting HoT stacks to 6, but in a better way I think, and 6 is an important number because you wouldn't use Echoing with less than 6 anyway. I have never seen someone say 6+ in these discussions and this is primarily why I've always been opposed.
2) Leave the potential stacks the same but nerf healing, across the board, by 10 or 15 percent. Solo players are also capable of way too much healing. Why only fix one thing?
3) Make max group size smaller (6.) If you remove HoT stacking then ballgroups will be uniquely capable of having dedicated burst heal spammers. It won't fix anything anyway. Reducing group size will attack this issue and also some of the issues surrounding this issue (lag and trolling.)

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

Also; Resolving Vigor is definitely overtuned and pretty much everyone that I PvP with (guildies, friends, etc) agrees with that. Adding Minor Resolve to it made it mandatory in group sizes < 6 (the inflection point where stacking Echoing becomes more powerful) and it heavily contributes to the tank meta.

Okay. I think I understand all that. But so I quoted this last paragraph to ask one more question. If Resolving Vigor is mandatory for all groups 6 or less... Then surely Echoing needs to continue to hit 7, right? Or what's really the point of it's existence?

And this is primarily why I've never agreed with these topics. There needs to be some benefit to having a big group and playing "meta" or what's the point? Has it gotten out of hand? Probably, but I'm not so sure this isn't also true for solo players.

I think Echoing Vigor only hits 6 people anyway, right? And you need to cast it twice to get the whole group?

Rather than limiting HoT stacks I would prefer any of these solutions:
1) If Echoing/radiating hits 6 targets then let it be 6 and only 6. Recasting to hit a new target should remove an old target simultaneously. Effectively limiting HoT stacks to 6, but in a better way I think, and 6 is an important number because you wouldn't use Echoing with less than 6 anyway. I have never seen someone say 6+ in these discussions and this is primarily why I've always been opposed.
2) Leave the potential stacks the same but nerf healing, across the board, by 10 or 15 percent. Solo players are also capable of way too much healing. Why only fix one thing?
3) Make max group size smaller (6.) If you remove HoT stacking then ballgroups will be uniquely capable of having dedicated burst heal spammers. It won't fix anything anyway. Reducing group size will attack this issue and also some of the issues surrounding this issue (lag and trolling.)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking about Resolving vs Echoing, but let me try to clarify things:

In a group size under 6, it is more overall healing to run Resolving vs Echoing. In a group size of 6 or more, everyone running Echoing is (MUCH) more healing than everyone running Resolving.

If HoT stacking was limited, it wouldn't make Echoing worthless - you'd still have one or 2 healers run it to supplement the group healing. The healers would miss out on Resolving, but generally healers are going to be tanky enough that they don't need it. Additionally, healers shouldn't really be slotting purely selfish heals anyways. Everyone else would run Resolving - this would not only cut down on the power of healing, but would also make it so that ball-groups have to be a little more reactive when taking damage. Part of what makes HoT stacking so strong is that with 10+ instances of a HoT on you, you no longer need to worry about healing reactively because you have TONS of overhealing coming in every second.

Echoing being able to target 6 (or 12 on a double cast) isn't the problem - the problem is stacking instances of healing as we discussed earlier. Echoing should absolutely be able to hit your group mates still as it is a group heal. Removing its ability to do so would hurt PvE groups. Limiting HoT instances would not.

Nerfing healing across the board would hurt solo players. Yes, you could argue that solo healing is powerful rn as is, but I'd argue that in small scale/1v1s, solo healing isn't necessarily the problem. Easy access to resists (the Resolving Vigor buff, for example), easy access to health with no downside (due to the bonus base stats from CP 2.0), and % damage mitigation (Arcanists 100% uptime on Minor Evasion, for example) are what make solo healing feel powerful.

Changing max group size to 6 would not only tick off a significant portion of the playerbase, but also wouldn't help the issue as you can still heal people not in your group. Two 6 man groups in a discord function identically to a 12 man.

Limiting instances of HoTs would be the most effective way to curtail healing while avoiding other side effects. Make no mistake - ballgroups would still have plenty of healing, they'd simply have to put in more effort and be more creative with the sources of said healing.

OBJnoob · August 2023

I didn't forget about ya @CameraBeardThePirate and in fact I admit I'm not sure what to say. I was hoping if I gave it a little time someone else would have something else to say.

It's hard to argue with you on this. So that's me admitting you are making good points. But still we have some differences of opinion.

You said a group of 6 or less would optimally all run Resolving. I suggested then that we limit Echoing stacks to 6, so that it more or less matches Resolving. You didn't say anything specifically in response to this but you did say anything more than 6, with Echoing, is "MUCH" more. I don't see how it jumped so far. I'm trying to find a number where Echoing is just slightly stronger (when stacked,) and let that be the limit.

I'll always disagree that it shouldn't stack at all. It's an MMORPG. Teamwork shouldn't just be a thing but it should be encouraged. There should be benefits. People don't go into PvE trials all prepared to heal themselves. They have healers... They have tanks, and they have DPS. Why should a PvP ballgroup suddenly start slotting selfish heals? Isn't being able to heal eachother an obvious benefit?

I'm always baffled by what people consider skillful or creative, to use your words. 6 people running around as a team but all using Resolving on themselves... That's creative?? I think it's much more creative that ballgroups don't need Resolving. The creativity is lost on people, I think, because frankly the game is just old and there's not much new under the sun... But whoever first "theory crafted" their ballgroup so that their members could save barspace by having dedicated people providing certain necessary buffs (minor resolve, minor berserk,) was pretty creative. They probably don't have to give themselves major resolve or brutality either. The benefits are almost endless. And only one of the benefits is that they can use that extra barspace to all run Echoing Vigor. It is creative... Or at least it was.

I don't see why these people aren't given more credit. They went out there, farmed every support set they could find, assigned it to people, coordinated their buffs, combined all their heals... And now they can't be touched. It doesn't seem to me like their skill or creativity is lacking.

It seems to me more like a significant portion of the vet PvP playerbase has just gotten tired of capping flags, shooting siege, returning scrolls, or winning campaigns. They want transmutes, they want fights, and that's about it. They don't like it when a 12-stack goes upstairs in a castle to troll 30 enemies, or the mechanics that allow it, but I doubt they would think twice about taking 8 enemies alone into a resource tower and killing them-- or the mechanics that allowed for it.

So that'll probably always be my hang-up with the issue. The problem exists on multiple levels but the proffered solutions only focus one angle. 1 can kill 8 and it becomes an applauded clip but 12 kills 30 and it's somehow lame.

I say good on them, in both cases. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to heal someone not in your group. And HoTs should stack at least high enough to match a solo morph of the same skill.

Why? Because grouping in an MMORPG is of innate benefit. It's supposed to make you stronger simply by doing it. A numbers advantage is not something broken that needs fixing it is the most fundamental concept there could be. And the answer to how to combat 12 peoples healing is equally simple... Get 12 people to do damage.

I've never been in a ballgroup but I've been a member of several guild groups that were basically one step down from that. The numbers were there-- the communication was there-- but the buffs and morphs and healing were not there because we all were running our brawler 1vX type builds. We used to have enemy groups to fight. It was SO fun. I miss that. And I support any 12 people that get together with their buddies and wreak havoc on the map. It's kinda what you're supposed to do. And it's what you'd be fighting against if the game weren't so old and people hadn't just... Didn't want to. Even my old groups didn't die to anything less than a coordinated ulti-dump. Why should they now?

SO. I'm sorry that was so long. And rambling. Please-- don't take it as something you need to respond to. Take it more like my final comments. And if you actually read the whole thing and think about it then you've done me a favor.

maxjapank · August 2023

The problem right now is shield stacking and speed. Shields give an extra buffer which means even more dmg must be done. It also saves ballgroups from dying, allowing hots to bring health back up. Speed, or a dedicated rapids provider in a group, is also too strong. It always has been. It allows ballgroups to move much faster than everyone else, putting them safely out of siege or any sorta burst that pugs can do.

OBJnoob · August 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

The problem right now is shield stacking and speed. Shields give an extra buffer which means even more dmg must be done. It also saves ballgroups from dying, allowing hots to bring health back up. Speed, or a dedicated rapids provider in a group, is also too strong. It always has been. It allows ballgroups to move much faster than everyone else, putting them safely out of siege or any sorta burst that pugs can do.

See I can use this example as a way to try and further my point. Is anything actually wrong with Rapids? Or is it just that 12 people who all know what they're doing, with Rapids, uses it to avoid a lot of damage? Rapids-- like Echoing Vigor, is borderline useless in every other scenario. Solo people would use RaT instead, similarly to how they use Resolving instead, because RaT is a better skill and so is Resolving. But the ability to cast it on others is deemed better when there are enough others to warrant it. And thus the group meta differs from the solo/small-scale meta. But it's a superficial difference no deeper than the name of the morph. The result is the same. A good solo Xer can kite forever without running out of resources, turn and kill an enemy around every corner, and keep right on kiting. So can ballgroups, and why shouldn't they? A good solo Xer can heal through a surprisingly large amount of damage. They'd use Vigor, a class HoT, a burst heal, and one or two other defensive measures. Shields, supplementary passive heals, blocking, LoS, whatever-- all in one build. Of course a ballgroup is going to have more than that. Why shouldn't they? They have 11 more people and a desire to help eachother.

Speed is a problem-- yes. It's a problem with the game not with ballgroups. Same with healing.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

The problem right now is shield stacking and speed. Shields give an extra buffer which means even more dmg must be done. It also saves ballgroups from dying, allowing hots to bring health back up. Speed, or a dedicated rapids provider in a group, is also too strong. It always has been. It allows ballgroups to move much faster than everyone else, putting them safely out of siege or any sorta burst that pugs can do.

Shields are definitely strong rn.

OBJnoob wrote: »

I didn't forget about ya @CameraBeardThePirate and in fact I admit I'm not sure what to say. I was hoping if I gave it a little time someone else would have something else to say.

It's hard to argue with you on this. So that's me admitting you are making good points. But still we have some differences of opinion.

You said a group of 6 or less would optimally all run Resolving. I suggested then that we limit Echoing stacks to 6, so that it more or less matches Resolving. You didn't say anything specifically in response to this but you did say anything more than 6, with Echoing, is "MUCH" more. I don't see how it jumped so far. I'm trying to find a number where Echoing is just slightly stronger (when stacked,) and let that be the limit.

I'll always disagree that it shouldn't stack at all. It's an MMORPG. Teamwork shouldn't just be a thing but it should be encouraged. There should be benefits. People don't go into PvE trials all prepared to heal themselves. They have healers... They have tanks, and they have DPS. Why should a PvP ballgroup suddenly start slotting selfish heals? Isn't being able to heal eachother an obvious benefit?

I'm always baffled by what people consider skillful or creative, to use your words. 6 people running around as a team but all using Resolving on themselves... That's creative?? I think it's much more creative that ballgroups don't need Resolving. The creativity is lost on people, I think, because frankly the game is just old and there's not much new under the sun... But whoever first "theory crafted" their ballgroup so that their members could save barspace by having dedicated people providing certain necessary buffs (minor resolve, minor berserk,) was pretty creative. They probably don't have to give themselves major resolve or brutality either. The benefits are almost endless. And only one of the benefits is that they can use that extra barspace to all run Echoing Vigor. It is creative... Or at least it was.

I don't see why these people aren't given more credit. They went out there, farmed every support set they could find, assigned it to people, coordinated their buffs, combined all their heals... And now they can't be touched. It doesn't seem to me like their skill or creativity is lacking.

It seems to me more like a significant portion of the vet PvP playerbase has just gotten tired of capping flags, shooting siege, returning scrolls, or winning campaigns. They want transmutes, they want fights, and that's about it. They don't like it when a 12-stack goes upstairs in a castle to troll 30 enemies, or the mechanics that allow it, but I doubt they would think twice about taking 8 enemies alone into a resource tower and killing them-- or the mechanics that allowed for it.

So that'll probably always be my hang-up with the issue. The problem exists on multiple levels but the proffered solutions only focus one angle. 1 can kill 8 and it becomes an applauded clip but 12 kills 30 and it's somehow lame.

I say good on them, in both cases. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to heal someone not in your group. And HoTs should stack at least high enough to match a solo morph of the same skill.

Why? Because grouping in an MMORPG is of innate benefit. It's supposed to make you stronger simply by doing it. A numbers advantage is not something broken that needs fixing it is the most fundamental concept there could be. And the answer to how to combat 12 peoples healing is equally simple... Get 12 people to do damage.

I've never been in a ballgroup but I've been a member of several guild groups that were basically one step down from that. The numbers were there-- the communication was there-- but the buffs and morphs and healing were not there because we all were running our brawler 1vX type builds. We used to have enemy groups to fight. It was SO fun. I miss that. And I support any 12 people that get together with their buddies and wreak havoc on the map. It's kinda what you're supposed to do. And it's what you'd be fighting against if the game weren't so old and people hadn't just... Didn't want to. Even my old groups didn't die to anything less than a coordinated ulti-dump. Why should they now?

SO. I'm sorry that was so long. And rambling. Please-- don't take it as something you need to respond to. Take it more like my final comments. And if you actually read the whole thing and think about it then you've done me a favor.

Just to address a couple last things (because I do partially agree on a lot of the points about the game being an MMO and therefore rewarding grouping).

You're right that I shouldn't say Echoing is much more healing as that's a little misleading. Once you hit 6 players, it's a little more healing per second. But it's much more healing per cast as it's a much longer duration. What that means is that every single one of the players on the team can now spend more global cooldowns on other things, whether that's more offense (usually the case), movement/defense, or healing. At 6 players the skill, per cast, becomes much more effective. Freeing up global cooldowns in group play is massive, and spending fewer resources (and casts) in your rotation on healing is also big. It also means that your healing is no longer off/on. Ideally, you'd have everyone keeping it up at all times, but for those moments where you might not be able to refresh your Echoing immediately, everyone else's should hopefully still be ticking.

Lastly, I don't think things shouldn't stack at all, but I do think they need to be limited to 2-3 per morph. You're right, you should be rewarded by grouping, but when everyone can just run the same healing ability and do a huge chunk of the work for the healer, things just get a little out of hand numbers-wise.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2023

1 person killing 8 is a failure on the part of the 8 for various potential reasons. They had avenues of counterplay such as build/class selection, game knowledge/mechanics, and actual skill in combat, and were just unable to muster enough of these in their favor to win an 8 v 1. Maybe they were all low level and were missing some important CPs. Either way those 8 definitely have something to improve upon if they don't want to repeat that. Likely an enormous amount of things.

The example of a 12 v 30 (assuming we are talking uncoordinated pugs here) is different because when 12 coordinated players on the move stack enough HoTs to literally heal 40+% per second it's just a massive numbers advantage that the 12 wields over the 30. If you're solo or small scale and you see one of these groups set up shop in a keep you move on. Adding your 2-3 man group to the 20+ players currently being farmed by the 12 man just increases the amount of players being farmed by them. At best you simply see that they are not dying to your group's damage, or the pugs' damage, or all the siege they're getting hit by, get bored and leave.

OBJnoob · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The problem right now is shield stacking and speed. Shields give an extra buffer which means even more dmg must be done. It also saves ballgroups from dying, allowing hots to bring health back up. Speed, or a dedicated rapids provider in a group, is also too strong. It always has been. It allows ballgroups to move much faster than everyone else, putting them safely out of siege or any sorta burst that pugs can do.

Shields are definitely strong rn.

OBJnoob wrote: »

I didn't forget about ya @CameraBeardThePirate and in fact I admit I'm not sure what to say. I was hoping if I gave it a little time someone else would have something else to say.

It's hard to argue with you on this. So that's me admitting you are making good points. But still we have some differences of opinion.

You said a group of 6 or less would optimally all run Resolving. I suggested then that we limit Echoing stacks to 6, so that it more or less matches Resolving. You didn't say anything specifically in response to this but you did say anything more than 6, with Echoing, is "MUCH" more. I don't see how it jumped so far. I'm trying to find a number where Echoing is just slightly stronger (when stacked,) and let that be the limit.

I'll always disagree that it shouldn't stack at all. It's an MMORPG. Teamwork shouldn't just be a thing but it should be encouraged. There should be benefits. People don't go into PvE trials all prepared to heal themselves. They have healers... They have tanks, and they have DPS. Why should a PvP ballgroup suddenly start slotting selfish heals? Isn't being able to heal eachother an obvious benefit?

I'm always baffled by what people consider skillful or creative, to use your words. 6 people running around as a team but all using Resolving on themselves... That's creative?? I think it's much more creative that ballgroups don't need Resolving. The creativity is lost on people, I think, because frankly the game is just old and there's not much new under the sun... But whoever first "theory crafted" their ballgroup so that their members could save barspace by having dedicated people providing certain necessary buffs (minor resolve, minor berserk,) was pretty creative. They probably don't have to give themselves major resolve or brutality either. The benefits are almost endless. And only one of the benefits is that they can use that extra barspace to all run Echoing Vigor. It is creative... Or at least it was.

I don't see why these people aren't given more credit. They went out there, farmed every support set they could find, assigned it to people, coordinated their buffs, combined all their heals... And now they can't be touched. It doesn't seem to me like their skill or creativity is lacking.

It seems to me more like a significant portion of the vet PvP playerbase has just gotten tired of capping flags, shooting siege, returning scrolls, or winning campaigns. They want transmutes, they want fights, and that's about it. They don't like it when a 12-stack goes upstairs in a castle to troll 30 enemies, or the mechanics that allow it, but I doubt they would think twice about taking 8 enemies alone into a resource tower and killing them-- or the mechanics that allowed for it.

So that'll probably always be my hang-up with the issue. The problem exists on multiple levels but the proffered solutions only focus one angle. 1 can kill 8 and it becomes an applauded clip but 12 kills 30 and it's somehow lame.

I say good on them, in both cases. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to heal someone not in your group. And HoTs should stack at least high enough to match a solo morph of the same skill.

Why? Because grouping in an MMORPG is of innate benefit. It's supposed to make you stronger simply by doing it. A numbers advantage is not something broken that needs fixing it is the most fundamental concept there could be. And the answer to how to combat 12 peoples healing is equally simple... Get 12 people to do damage.

I've never been in a ballgroup but I've been a member of several guild groups that were basically one step down from that. The numbers were there-- the communication was there-- but the buffs and morphs and healing were not there because we all were running our brawler 1vX type builds. We used to have enemy groups to fight. It was SO fun. I miss that. And I support any 12 people that get together with their buddies and wreak havoc on the map. It's kinda what you're supposed to do. And it's what you'd be fighting against if the game weren't so old and people hadn't just... Didn't want to. Even my old groups didn't die to anything less than a coordinated ulti-dump. Why should they now?

SO. I'm sorry that was so long. And rambling. Please-- don't take it as something you need to respond to. Take it more like my final comments. And if you actually read the whole thing and think about it then you've done me a favor.

Just to address a couple last things (because I do partially agree on a lot of the points about the game being an MMO and therefore rewarding grouping).

You're right that I shouldn't say Echoing is much more healing as that's a little misleading. Once you hit 6 players, it's a little more healing per second. But it's much more healing per cast as it's a much longer duration. What that means is that every single one of the players on the team can now spend more global cooldowns on other things, whether that's more offense (usually the case), movement/defense, or healing. At 6 players the skill, per cast, becomes much more effective. Freeing up global cooldowns in group play is massive, and spending fewer resources (and casts) in your rotation on healing is also big. It also means that your healing is no longer off/on. Ideally, you'd have everyone keeping it up at all times, but for those moments where you might not be able to refresh your Echoing immediately, everyone else's should hopefully still be ticking.

Lastly, I don't think things shouldn't stack at all, but I do think they need to be limited to 2-3 per morph. You're right, you should be rewarded by grouping, but when everyone can just run the same healing ability and do a huge chunk of the work for the healer, things just get a little out of hand numbers-wise.

Well. Good talk. I know I've been aggressive towards you in the past and I'll give you the credit for this time being better.

I do still disagree and I think 6 should be the number. But that's just one man's vote. I'm not a ballgrouper and, though I do solo a lot, I'm not an Xer either. So I have no real stake in this... Just talking about what seems fair to me.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

1 person killing 8 is a failure on the part of the 8 for various potential reasons. They had avenues of counterplay such as build/class selection, game knowledge/mechanics, and actual skill in combat, and were just unable to muster enough of these in their favor to win an 8 v 1. Maybe they were all low level and were missing some important CPs. Either way those 8 definitely have something to improve upon if they don't want to repeat that. Likely an enormous amount of things.

The example of a 12 v 30 (assuming we are talking uncoordinated pugs here) is different because when 12 coordinated players on the move stack enough HoTs to literally heal 40+% per second it's just a massive numbers advantage that the 12 wields over the 30. If you're solo or small scale and you see one of these groups set up shop in a keep you move on. Adding your 2-3 man group to the 20+ players currently being farmed by the 12 man just increases the amount of players being farmed by them. At best you simply see that they are not dying to your group's damage, or the pugs' damage, or all the siege they're getting hit by, get bored and leave.

Sorry but it still seems the same to me. Yes, the 8 are lacking. They don't have the skill and most likely don't have the build. But the 30 are lacking in the exact same way. You called them unorganized pugs. What do you suppose the 8 are? It's offensive to think of yourself as an unorganized pugs if you know that you're a good player... But when faced with 12 organized players buffing themselves through the roof then that's pretty much what you amount to. I think a few of the 8 might be offended too.

Take me for instance. A good player, if I dare say. I've had one guy kill me AND some others at the same time. Was the person better than me? I mean, probably. But I also don't have sea serpents coil. And I also don't have any arena weapons. And as such I'm handicapped. Now that guy who killed me might be wearing all of that, but he's still going to find himself helpless against 12 people giving eachother major courage, major force, and lord knows what else. You can blame the healing if you want to but it really amounts to quite a bit more than that.

Nerf cross heals all you want. Nerf group support sets too while you're at it. Nerf everything until a ballgroup is just 12 people wearing meta Xing gear with meta Xing skill bars. If the 1 can still beat the 8 then the 12 are still probably going to beat the 30. Or maybe 96, hmm, since that's what would actually be a proportionate comparison.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nerf cross heals all you want. Nerf group support sets too while you're at it. Nerf everything until a ballgroup is just 12 people wearing meta Xing gear with meta Xing skill bars. If the 1 can still beat the 8 then the 12 are still probably going to beat the 30. Or maybe 96, hmm, since that's what would actually be a proportionate comparison.

So this gets closer to the point I'm trying to make here. The 1v8 is someone with no cross heals/heal stacking whatsoever. So if most will conclude the 1v8 takes greater skill maybe there is something more to this after all than just "1vX go brrr." I absolutely challenge the contention that heal stacking could be nerfed in a considerable way and ballgroups would seamlessly adapt. They would find some ways to mitigate the loss, but they would not be able to carry on in the same way at all.

edward_frigidhands · August 2023

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Coordinated group gameplay should be allowed and encouraged. But I don't understand why players are allowed to stack healing over time to the point where groups are able to regenerate 50% of their health per second or more. This isn't balanced or healthy for the game in any way. Just because 12 players group together doesn't mean they should become nearly unkillable.

The most likely explanation is because DoT stacking is allowed.

It wouldn't make sense for DoT stacking to be allowed without HoT stacking to function the same way.

You are better off making a case for whether DoTs need a buff as opposed to whether HoTs should stack.

OBJnoob · August 2023

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nerf cross heals all you want. Nerf group support sets too while you're at it. Nerf everything until a ballgroup is just 12 people wearing meta Xing gear with meta Xing skill bars. If the 1 can still beat the 8 then the 12 are still probably going to beat the 30. Or maybe 96, hmm, since that's what would actually be a proportionate comparison.

So this gets closer to the point I'm trying to make here. The 1v8 is someone with no cross heals/heal stacking whatsoever. So if most will conclude the 1v8 takes greater skill maybe there is something more to this after all than just "1vX go brrr." I absolutely challenge the contention that heal stacking could be nerfed in a considerable way and ballgroups would seamlessly adapt. They would find some ways to mitigate the loss, but they would not be able to carry on in the same way at all.

I don't think it's just "1vX go brrr," I suppose I have said that in the past but I'm trying to be more understanding. I do however think there's some misunderstanding and jealousy between the two styles. Group players complain about Xers and have all sorts of derogatory names to call them... Tanks, trolls, rock jumpers. Xers get zerged down sometimes and have all sorts of derogatory names to call the group members. When they get Xed they are skill-less pugs. When they zerg the Xer down they are also skill-less pugs. And when they choose not to engage they are scared skill-less pugs, LOL.

Anyway the Xer doesn't need to heal stack because their burst heal probably does 80% of their health bar, and casting Resolving and Rapid Regen on themselves is equivalent to having 4 or 6 stacks of what's being complained about on them. The solo morphs are already way stronger, and the fact that healing power scales off of damage is also a huge boon to solo players. The game has already advantaged them in this way and helped make the Xing playstyle viable for players with enough skill. You just have to accept that there is a certain threshold where teamwork pulls ahead. It's only logical and it's only fair.

If a solo player can use Resolving Vigor to get the equivalent of 6x Echoing Vigors then Echoing Vigor should stack no less than 6 times.

FantasticFreddie · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

This isn't true though. HoTs quickly outpace DoTs.

Take crits for example. Critical Damage is mitigated by Critical Resistance (or from the damage dealer's point of view, their critical damage punches through a target's critical resistance).

No such interaction exists with critical healing. To quote the bloke from the commercials, "It does exactly what it says on the tin". If you have 100% Critical healing, you'll always be healing for double tooltip value on a crit. There is no way on the damage dealer's side to mitigate this.

This one, single mechanic allows HoTs to outpace DoTs and it's not even close.

There are also FAR more ways to mitigate damage and boost healing than there are ways to prevent healing even without crits - another reason HoTs will always outpace DoTs. It isn't hard to get a bazillion forms of damage mitigation and % modifiers to healing. Meanwhile, Defile is in a sorry state after the (at the time needed) nerf years ago, and Healing Absorption seems to have been abandoned entirely by the devs. (Edit: we'll have to see how the new unnamed-defile set will affect things next patch. Could help, but methinks it's just another tool to be used by ballgroups)

Edit to add: the introduction of the Arcanist has made HoTs pull away from DoTs even more. Shields work heavily in HoTs favors, and just 1 or 2 Arcanists in the group can ensure a team always has at least 10k shields up. At. All. Times. HoTs still heal while shielded, but DoTs won't even touch the healthbar. Oblivion damage used to be the counter to this, directly hurting health even while shielded, but sources of Oblivion damage have (surprise surprise) been nerfed over time and there aren't really any sources left worth running. (Snake in the Stars being the lone exception, but it has its own caveats)

But sure, HoTs and DoTs are created equal everyone.

1) PVP healers do not spec into crit heals, period. That is not a thing.

2) Shields and heals take a harder nerf via battle spirit than damage does.

3) Zos took away a huge source of burst damage when they nefed Harmony into oblivion. We all told them it was a bad idea, they did it anyways.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

This isn't true though. HoTs quickly outpace DoTs.

Take crits for example. Critical Damage is mitigated by Critical Resistance (or from the damage dealer's point of view, their critical damage punches through a target's critical resistance).

No such interaction exists with critical healing. To quote the bloke from the commercials, "It does exactly what it says on the tin". If you have 100% Critical healing, you'll always be healing for double tooltip value on a crit. There is no way on the damage dealer's side to mitigate this.

This one, single mechanic allows HoTs to outpace DoTs and it's not even close.

There are also FAR more ways to mitigate damage and boost healing than there are ways to prevent healing even without crits - another reason HoTs will always outpace DoTs. It isn't hard to get a bazillion forms of damage mitigation and % modifiers to healing. Meanwhile, Defile is in a sorry state after the (at the time needed) nerf years ago, and Healing Absorption seems to have been abandoned entirely by the devs. (Edit: we'll have to see how the new unnamed-defile set will affect things next patch. Could help, but methinks it's just another tool to be used by ballgroups)

Edit to add: the introduction of the Arcanist has made HoTs pull away from DoTs even more. Shields work heavily in HoTs favors, and just 1 or 2 Arcanists in the group can ensure a team always has at least 10k shields up. At. All. Times. HoTs still heal while shielded, but DoTs won't even touch the healthbar. Oblivion damage used to be the counter to this, directly hurting health even while shielded, but sources of Oblivion damage have (surprise surprise) been nerfed over time and there aren't really any sources left worth running. (Snake in the Stars being the lone exception, but it has its own caveats)

But sure, HoTs and DoTs are created equal everyone.

1) PVP healers do not spec into crit heals, period. That is not a thing.

2) Shields and heals take a harder nerf via battle spirit than damage does.

3) Zos took away a huge source of burst damage when they nefed Harmony into oblivion. We all told them it was a bad idea, they did it anyways.

Way to not understand the entire conversation.

We aren't talking about true healers, we're talking about every DPS in the group stacking HoTs. You know who does stack crit damage and healing? DPS!

Besides, it doesn't matter that they don't stack into crit healing - the point is that there isn't any way to mitigate crit heals from the attacker's side.

OBJnoob · August 2023

There is a way to mitigate crit heals. Not make them smaller-- but happen less often. I can't remember the name of the debuff but basically sets like wizards riposte.

Just a fun fact. I'm not suggesting this means anything to the larger scope of the conversation.

Redguards_Revenge · August 2023

As a stamina templar, I realized that healing over time was far superior than breath of life. I stack HoTs now. ZoS doesn't reward burst healing over HoT. 5 bars of HoT and a resto ult lol.

Alchimiste1 · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

No, it's not. I remember seeing a stream of two top tier ball groups fight each other and it went on for like 20 minutes. 2-3 died and they would be picked back up never fully wiping. What I got from that is; Even ball groups can wipe ball groups. (Talking about equal skill level).

PhoenixGrey · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Thank you for that breakdown @CameraBeardThePirate there was a lot of important stuff there I didn't consider/incorporate.

I still think I have a point though... Maybe you can explain to me why I don't.

My point, moreso than "HoTs equal DoTs," is that HoTs seem balanced in 1v1 scenarios. HoTs seem easily outdamageable, is my point. So I'm wondering why nobody complains about HoTs until there's a bunch of them. Why isn't the answer just to obviously get more people? Why would you rather severely handicap their playstyle than just accept that "oh, well, that's a bunch of pretty good players there, can't do anything about them."

Resolving Vigor is like 4x more powerful than Echoing Vigor, if only being used on one person. Why aren't people complaining about Resolving Vigor?

I'm struggling to see why the skill is to blame. Everything points to the number of people being the differentiating factor.

OBJnoob wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nerf cross heals all you want. Nerf group support sets too while you're at it. Nerf everything until a ballgroup is just 12 people wearing meta Xing gear with meta Xing skill bars. If the 1 can still beat the 8 then the 12 are still probably going to beat the 30. Or maybe 96, hmm, since that's what would actually be a proportionate comparison.

So this gets closer to the point I'm trying to make here. The 1v8 is someone with no cross heals/heal stacking whatsoever. So if most will conclude the 1v8 takes greater skill maybe there is something more to this after all than just "1vX go brrr." I absolutely challenge the contention that heal stacking could be nerfed in a considerable way and ballgroups would seamlessly adapt. They would find some ways to mitigate the loss, but they would not be able to carry on in the same way at all.

I don't think it's just "1vX go brrr," I suppose I have said that in the past but I'm trying to be more understanding. I do however think there's some misunderstanding and jealousy between the two styles. Group players complain about Xers and have all sorts of derogatory names to call them... Tanks, trolls, rock jumpers. Xers get zerged down sometimes and have all sorts of derogatory names to call the group members. When they get Xed they are skill-less pugs. When they zerg the Xer down they are also skill-less pugs. And when they choose not to engage they are scared skill-less pugs, LOL.

Anyway the Xer doesn't need to heal stack because their burst heal probably does 80% of their health bar, and casting Resolving and Rapid Regen on themselves is equivalent to having 4 or 6 stacks of what's being complained about on them. The solo morphs are already way stronger, and the fact that healing power scales off of damage is also a huge boon to solo players. The game has already advantaged them in this way and helped make the Xing playstyle viable for players with enough skill. You just have to accept that there is a certain threshold where teamwork pulls ahead. It's only logical and it's only fair.

If a solo player can use Resolving Vigor to get the equivalent of 6x Echoing Vigors then Echoing Vigor should stack no less than 6 times.

IMO, being in a group itself is an advantage. Anyone in a group can also run the stronger solo morphs you just discussed so I am not sure what you are getting at.

I can understand if there is a debuff when grouped that there is an advantage for solo players. But that is not the case.

The so called 1vx sets and skills have also been nerfed over the years, the only exception being a few NB and DK skills,

OBJnoob · August 2023

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

No, it's not. I remember seeing a stream of two top tier ball groups fight each other and it went on for like 20 minutes. 2-3 died and they would be picked back up never fully wiping. What I got from that is; Even ball groups can wipe ball groups. (Talking about equal skill level).

I mean, have you ever seen two solo players in Xing gear duel? It also doesn't end. People tank up when they plan on fighting outnumbered and then a fair fight between skilled players won't end. The ballgroups get their damage from sheer numbers and the Xers get it from arena weapons and procs. If there were more ballgroups to fight other ballgroups then you'd start to see more variety in composition.

@PhoenixGrey I'm not saying a solo player has the advantage when outnumbered I'm just saying some things work in their favor. The way healing and damage scale off the same stat, for one, and the preposterous strength of solo heals.

Also, IF heals suddenly don't stack at all then I would personally consider that a debuff put on groups. Debuff has an in-game definition but it's also a word. It's the opposite of buffing. It's nerfing. Nerfing groups and not solos.

@everyone I'm not trying to argue. Just responding to comments. For the record I proposed a cap on heal stacks of 6. Which is literally HALF of what's currently possible. But that doesn't seem to be enough for anyone. So I'll continue to disagree. Cutting cross healing out completely is a terrible idea.

PhoenixGrey · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The value of one HoT instance corresponds with the damage per second one player is likely to do. Whether that be light attacks or DoTs or whatever, one HoT is roughly balanced to be the antithesis of this. With the knowledge that you'll probably need to use a burst heal in tandem to heal through burst damage.

12 players stacking HoTs is going to be absurdly strong from the perspective of anyone but another 12 person group. Against a 12 person group capable of 12 DoTs, AoEs, Ult dumps or whatever it's fairly balanced. The only exception being of course better group synergy, uptimes, support gear, and coordination. In other words "skill gap."

There's nothing wrong with HoT stacking-- teamwork is an important part of the game. Isn't the real problem just that it's hard to amass enough players with enough coordination and timely damage to counter it?

And if that's the case... It's almost a "learn to play," issue. Or perhaps a "learn to deal," issue. But if it MUST be resolved, why don't we just make the max group size smaller?

Telling a coordinated PvP raid team they can't heal eachother (or half of them can't,) is pretty lame. And I have yet to see a very good reason for it. Just a bunch of solo players and small scalers that are bothered by the un-X-able.

No, it's not. I remember seeing a stream of two top tier ball groups fight each other and it went on for like 20 minutes. 2-3 died and they would be picked back up never fully wiping. What I got from that is; Even ball groups can wipe ball groups. (Talking about equal skill level).

I mean, have you ever seen two solo players in Xing gear duel? It also doesn't end. People tank up when they plan on fighting outnumbered and then a fair fight between skilled players won't end. The ballgroups get their damage from sheer numbers and the Xers get it from arena weapons and procs. If there were more ballgroups to fight other ballgroups then you'd start to see more variety in composition.

@PhoenixGrey I'm not saying a solo player has the advantage when outnumbered I'm just saying some things work in their favor. The way healing and damage scale off the same stat, for one, and the preposterous strength of solo heals.

Also, IF heals suddenly don't stack at all then I would personally consider that a debuff put on groups. Debuff has an in-game definition but it's also a word. It's the opposite of buffing. It's nerfing. Nerfing groups and not solos.

@everyone I'm not trying to argue. Just responding to comments. For the record I proposed a cap on heal stacks of 6. Which is literally HALF of what's currently possible. But that doesn't seem to be enough for anyone. So I'll continue to disagree. Cutting cross healing out completely is a terrible idea.

How is heals not stacking a debuff for the group?

I could make a case for burst heal stacking but I don’t see how passive hot stacking is different from the afk proc meta we have going on right now ? It completely takes out skill and class out of the equation

OBJnoob · August 2023

@PhoenixGrey I mean I already explained about the debuff thing. Honestly I'm tired of fielding these questions.

I'd prefer to talk about how I'm on board with limiting HoT stacks to 6, which is half of what's currently possible, and why that isn't good enough.