I have a SERIOUS Question to ask after Watching JakeClips Youtube BOT Video...

ElderSmitter · August 2023

Hi, all! Ok so can someone tell me why People cannot sell in game items for Real World Money in Games? Or is this just an ESO thing? I literally never bothered to even think about it or considered it but after watching JakeClips Bot video it got me thinking about something. In the Year 2023 in the United States, we now have what is called Locators. So basically, in Approved States you can Gamble on Pretty much all sports and play Daily Fantasy games like on DraftKings and FanDuel for instance... If your State is approved and your 18+ with a Locator, you can Play DFS or Gamble. So, this begs to me to ask... Why if your fully vested in a Video game like ESO can you NOT sell Items for real word Money? Yes, i know it's a terms of Service thing but is there games that you actually can Legally sell in game items? And is the industry going to eventually head this way or will it never happen? Here is Jake's Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwdshKNkktE

CGPsaint · August 2023

ZOS and other game developers/publishers don't want you selling what is essentially their intellectual property. Items in their game are their property. Simple as that.

ixthUA · August 2023

I know one popular chinese game where this is allowed, but in CN you need your official ID to set up an account.
Diablo 3 used to have a real money auction house, but it didn't end well.

Zodiarkslayer · August 2023

Putting gaming success and currency in correlation is dangerous for any player, because of one thing: addiction. ZOS is preemptively preventing its customers becoming addicts, when they forbid in game items to be traded for RL currency. Not that they would exclude themselves. But hey, it's their prerogative as developers and owners.

Especially the EU is very restrictive on online gaming and we on the other side of the pond can only play ESO because of the technicality, that is Seals of Endeavor. The he crown store items can be technically achieved in game without RL currency.

Technically ...

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

You can't do it because in the vast majority of games, selling gold for irl money is explicitly prohibited in the Terms of Service. It's really that simple - you agree to the terms when you play the game. The game company obviously wants you to play the game, and allowing gold selling cuts down on playtime.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

ZOS and other game developers/publishers don't want you selling what is essentially their intellectual property. Items in their game are their property. Simple as that.

It's not really a case of infringing on intellectual property, and moreso that it's just prohibited by terms of service.

rpa · August 2023

Gambling aside, if game rewards items with monerary value someone has to pay taxes.

ElderSmitter · August 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

ZOS and other game developers/publishers don't want you selling what is essentially their intellectual property. Items in their game are their property. Simple as that.

So basically, if a Game developer chose to allow game items to be sold for real money than it would be allowed in Approved States by 18 and older people? Athletes for instance don't receive compensation for people playing Daily Fantasy Sports so not sure in game items would be considered intellectual property unless copied. I am no expert, but Jakes Video had me thinking that's all...

Best of Luck to you!

Tandor · August 2023

if the purpose of the thread was to promote a video then bad luck, this is a discussion forum and most won't bother to watch videos but will just respond to the discussion. I'm one of them.

There are simple contractual and other legal reasons (which vary around the world and are a minefield for any global game operator) why real world money transactions aren't allowed in games. Additionally, most of the unofficial suppliers of ingame items like gold in return for real world money are organised criminal gangs who employ slave labour in third world countries to run their transactions and use those transactions to steal their customers' personal and credit card details etc.

Paulytnz · August 2023

There are many reasons, I guess. Runescape was the first game I saw this in way back, 20 years ago now. The main reason there was because it encouraged people to use bots which then impact the real players.

Bots would mine all the ores, cut all the trees, kill all the monsters etc. You couldn't do anything basically if there were too many bots. So, what do you think happens then? Real players get fed up and quit, soon you have a game with just bots and no real players. Of course, the game would probably soon die. The game devs got on to fixing that as best as they could and looky looky, the game is still going strong now. In fact, I think it is about the first or second longest running mmo, and yes even older than WOW, it came out BEFORE that game.

I think this is one of the main reasons it is a rule in most MMO's.

There is one game that comes to mind where I think it is allowed. Second Life, that is a game where YOU actually create stuff and can sell it for real cash. I tried getting into that many years ago, but it became clear to me that you needed some programming/coding experience to be able to do this. Like I said though, this was YEARS ago I looked into that game, it could all be different now.

As for the future, I think with the Metaverse coming and I am sure there will be other Metaverse games competing with that too when it comes. I can see that we will be able to sell in game things for real cash. Go and watch "Ready Player One" for an idea about that.

There is also the NFT side of it to think about too. So, I think there may be a complete shift to all of this coming soon.

TaSheen · August 2023

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Paulytnz · August 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Let them, I am not an American or live in the USA so that wont bother me.

NoSoup · August 2023

Some games do. CounterStrike on the steam platform has a community market place where you can buy and sell your loot.

NoSoup · August 2023

But in the instance of ESO I think the biggest issue is "Pay to Win". If you could sell your loot for RL currnecy then someone can just "buy" their way to the top, making it an unfair environment for the less financially equipped.

belial5221_ESO · August 2023

Paulytnz wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Let them, I am not an American or live in the USA so that wont bother me.

But depending on different international laws, and treatiesyou may end up having to pay something to someone.In the end,if they saw something like that,they could block countries,and can become federal offense or money laundering depending on who you buy/sell from.Just cause you not in the US don't mean there's not other laws that could get you lol.

TaSheen · August 2023

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

Paulytnz wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Let them, I am not an American or live in the USA so that wont bother me.

But depending on different international laws, and treatiesyou may end up having to pay something to someone.In the end,if they saw something like that,they could block countries,and can become federal offense or money laundering depending on who you buy/sell from.Just cause you not in the US don't mean there's not other laws that could get you lol.

True. Every country has taxation regulations. Something like this could be considered income. When considered income, well.... you generally have to pay tax on it. No matter where you live.

Paulytnz · August 2023

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

Paulytnz wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Let them, I am not an American or live in the USA so that wont bother me.

But depending on different international laws, and treatiesyou may end up having to pay something to someone.In the end,if they saw something like that,they could block countries,and can become federal offense or money laundering depending on who you buy/sell from.Just cause you not in the US don't mean there's not other laws that could get you lol.

I was talking about getting taxed buy your country - IRS.

TaSheen wrote: »

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

Paulytnz wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Hmm. Looks like the IRS will be taking a deep gander at game players before long then.

Let them, I am not an American or live in the USA so that wont bother me.

But depending on different international laws, and treatiesyou may end up having to pay something to someone.In the end,if they saw something like that,they could block countries,and can become federal offense or money laundering depending on who you buy/sell from.Just cause you not in the US don't mean there's not other laws that could get you lol.

True. Every country has taxation regulations. Something like this could be considered income. When considered income, well.... you generally have to pay tax on it. No matter where you live.

I wouldn't be bothered, our tax system's not too bad here. Heck, we don't even get taxed if we win big money on say the lottery like you guys do - which seems like a BIG rip off to me.

Freelancer_ESO · August 2023

The industry isn't likely to head into that direction overall because companies don't want players to actually own their account.

Right now, if a game developer does something that annoys a player and makes them quit they just end up losing out of the revenue that person might bring in with future purchases.

If the player actually owns their account though and they sell it the company misses out on all the money they could have made selling the stuff on the account to other people.

valenwood_vegan · August 2023

Among other problems that people have mentioned, I think a big one is that when real money is involved, it opens up a whole host of potential legal issues that a company may want to avoid dealing with. Just off the top of my head, there might be tax law and anti-gambling law implications (and remember, they would have to investigate these legal implications in *every* country the game is played in). In some cases, securities law can also become involved. And the BIG ONE - the game could be used as a mechanism for money laundering and other criminal activity / fraud.

And suddenly... instead of just developing their game, the company is spending a small fortune on their legal and compliance departments.

(If anyone's REALLY interested in the money laundering issue... fordhamlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Roomberg_Vol.-91.pdf is a good read).

TL;DR is that in some circumstances, a gaming company could potentially be considered a "money transmitter" under US law, which imposes a number of legal obligations including anti-money-laundering compliance requirements... something I assume a simple gaming company would rather avoid.

AlwaysDancing · August 2023

Maybe its just a GAME and we should be playing to have FUN.

Marcus684 · August 2023

Dealing with the profit motive of ZOS is difficult enough for some people. Can you imagine how bad it would be if the players had the same motive?