Why Craft bag is still locked behind a paid subscription

O_LYKOS · August 2023

How do you think zenimax continue to run the game. they no doubtably make a solid profit off eso+ subs and thats ok with me and i imagine a hell of a lot of other players too.

merpins · August 2023

Animator here! It's called manufactured inconvenience, which is to make something inconvenient on purpose so the solution can be sold. It's very normal in online and mobile games, and unless the the whole games industry revamps their practices and roots out all the tactics that are non-player friendly, the ones that turn the most profits, things like this will not be removed from games. The games industry is a business, and profit comes first. I do not blame them in the slightest, and this particular practice, at least in this instance, doesn't bother me.

laniakea_0 · August 2023

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

I merely suggested that there should be alternative ways to obtain it.

And how would those "alternate" ways generate revenue for Zos? Ongoing, repeatable revenue? Because that's what they have now. And if you have no answer to that question, then it's just a selfish unrealistic request.

the continuous development of new content. you know, the thing they've been doing every quarter for more than 6 years at the least.

So, it is your contention that a $40 payment once a year will generate the same amount of revenue as a $14 per month subscription? Is this seriously what you're going with? That's not only terribly naive, it's incredibly disingenuous.

why would it matter that it's more? isn't it obvious that it's more than enough to fund them either way? they sold like 18 million copies of the game plus all the new players they keep attracting. from the chapters alone, they make millions every year. and then there's the other DLC as well. besides, even if they took the craft bag out of it to any degree at all, there would still be plenty of people using ESO+
so why would you think that it makes any difference when it comes to funding the studio and the servers.

RicAlmighty · August 2023

laniakea_0 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

I merely suggested that there should be alternative ways to obtain it.

And how would those "alternate" ways generate revenue for Zos? Ongoing, repeatable revenue? Because that's what they have now. And if you have no answer to that question, then it's just a selfish unrealistic request.

the continuous development of new content. you know, the thing they've been doing every quarter for more than 6 years at the least.

So, it is your contention that a $40 payment once a year will generate the same amount of revenue as a $14 per month subscription? Is this seriously what you're going with? That's not only terribly naive, it's incredibly disingenuous.

why would it matter that it's more? isn't it obvious that it's more than enough to fund them either way? they sold like 18 million copies of the game plus all the new players they keep attracting. from the chapters alone, they make millions every year. and then there's the other DLC as well. besides, even if they took the craft bag out of it to any degree at all, there would still be plenty of people using ESO+
so why would you think that it makes any difference when it comes to funding the studio and the servers.

You have little to no understanding of what you are trying to discuss here Just the statement "why would it matter that it's more" is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of how business in general operates that I'm not sure there's much point in going on.

laniakea_0 wrote: »

[besides, even if they took the craft bag out of it to any degree at all, there would still be plenty of people using ESO+

And this is based on what data? What projections are you using to arrive at this conclusion? Moreover, what is the definition of "plenty"? What is the breakdown of percentage of players that will drop the sub after an "alternate" means of acquiring the craft bag versus ones that will keep it even though a tremendous portion of the value add has been removed? Will Zenimax be forced to reduce the cost of the sub because of this? They certainly could not keep it the same and expect players to accept it, right?

So many blind assumptions, hand waving "trust me" data, and unfounded speculation that it is really not even worth continuing this. This has certainly been an *interesting* evening, that's for sure. 😄

Nestor · August 2023

If ZOS got $15 for every post arguing for a free craft bag, it really could be free...

TaSheen · August 2023

Nestor wrote: »

If ZOS got $15 for every post arguing for a free craft bag, it really could be free...

Truth.

Tyrant_Tim · August 2023

Forget the craft bag, why is it that we can only use half of our furnishing slots?

I have never heard anyone in an honest discussion about why they purchase ESO+ bring up…

“x2 Furnishing Slots”

…as the primary reason they are subscribed.

TaSheen · August 2023

It's one of the perks for subbing. Those of us into housing are happy for the doubled slots actually.

Jamie_Aubrey · August 2023

That's the only reason to get ESO+

Tyrant_Tim · August 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

It's one of the perks for subbing. Those of us into housing are happy for the doubled slots actually.

But is that the main reason you’re subscribed?

You could make the argument that you’re paying for the normal amount of furnishing slots, and that you get halved as a non-subscriber.

When Homestead was released, that “subscriber perk” was there day one, as if someone last minute said, “Hey! Wait! There’s no DLC for our subscription yet, so let’s halve housing slots then provide the normal amount for a premium!”

TaSheen · August 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

It's one of the perks for subbing. Those of us into housing are happy for the doubled slots actually.

But is that the main reason you’re subscribed?

You could make the argument that you’re paying for the normal amount of furnishing slots, and that you get halved as a non-subscriber.

When Homestead was released, that “subscriber perk” was there day one, as if someone last minute said, “Hey! Wait! There’s no DLC for our subscription yet, so let’s halve housing slots then provide the normal amount for a premium!”

The main reason I sub is because I PAY FOR MY FUN. All of the perks in ESO+ are of value to me.

Y'know.... I played WoW for a decade. I subbed 7 accounts that entire 10 (plus a few months) years. I didn't get the sort of perks that ESO+ gives me. I sub 3 accounts here (and I'm setting up a 4th one).

For me, value for money is ESO+. *shrug* So I don't really care what you think.

zaria · August 2023

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

As has been mentioned, I think the issue is that many people would stop subbing (or greatly reduce the amount of time spent subbed) if not for the craft bag, *especially* now that the new yearly release schedule has less DLC than it used to.

I already stop subbing for a couple months a year (to make up the price of the new chapter), and it's always the lure of the craft bag that brings me back. If that were always available, I would cut my sub down to a month or two a year... when I feel like working on a new house or want to farm the newest dungeons.

An huge part of why I dropped ESO back after an year was the inventory mini game, back then it was no crafting bag and getting full inventory was expensive.
So you had to push stuff onto bank alts or destroy who took up so large part of my playtime I simply left.

Tyrant_Tim · August 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

For me, value for money is ESO+. *shrug* So I don't really care what you think.

Lol, okay. At what point did I ask you to care what I think? I brought up a point for you to either relate with or not, regardless of whether you care.

In regards to whether ESO+ has value, it does. It has immense value. If you’re a new player, or someone who doesn’t buy DLC, it has hundreds of dollars worth of value in those DLC alone now that we’ve got a decent amount of them.

If ESO+ lost all of the gimmicky stuff, like the craft bag, the ability to dye outfits, and the standard housing permission, players would still subscribe for those DLC, the ESO+ discounts, and the experience bonus associated with it.

AzuraFan · August 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

In regards to whether ESO+ has value, it does. It has immense value. If you’re a new player, or someone who doesn’t buy DLC, it has hundreds of dollars worth of value in those DLC alone now that we’ve got a decent amount of them.

If ESO+ lost all of the gimmicky stuff, like the craft bag, the ability to dye outfits, and the standard housing permission, players would still subscribe for those DLC, the ESO+ discounts, and the experience bonus associated with it.

When they gave away the Firesong and Deadlands DLCs, and some people (including me) pointed out that doing so devalued the ESO+ subscription, many ESO+ subscribers said they don't care because they subscribe for the craft bag. It's the main draw. Not the ability to dye outfits, increased furnishing slots, increased bank space, experience bonus, or anything else. The crowns subscribers get would likely come second, but way behind the craft bag.

I predict that if ZOS suddenly offered the craft bag for free or a one-time purchase, they'd lose 90+% of their subscribers (including me). So it will never happen.

If you want something that's behind a paywall, then pay for it. Plain and simple.

Tyrant_Tim · August 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

In regards to whether ESO+ has value, it does. It has immense value. If you’re a new player, or someone who doesn’t buy DLC, it has hundreds of dollars worth of value in those DLC alone now that we’ve got a decent amount of them.

If ESO+ lost all of the gimmicky stuff, like the craft bag, the ability to dye outfits, and the standard housing permission, players would still subscribe for those DLC, the ESO+ discounts, and the experience bonus associated with it.

When they gave away the Firesong and Deadlands DLCs, and some people (including me) pointed out that doing so devalued the ESO+ subscription, many ESO+ subscribers said they don't care because they subscribe for the craft bag. It's the main draw. Not the ability to dye outfits, increased furnishing slots, increased bank space, experience bonus, or anything else. The crowns subscribers get would likely come second, but way behind the craft bag.

I predict that if ZOS suddenly offered the craft bag for free or a one-time purchase, they'd lose 90+% of their subscribers (including me). So it will never happen.

If you want something that's behind a paywall, then pay for it. Plain and simple.

I manage my inventory fine, I also have been playing the game for years, and have a notable home, with every storage coffer.

Not quite a fan of paying 100+ dollars for a house with 700 slots, then losing 350 of them. Now that my ESO house has deteriorated in value, I would love a refund, but can’t get one.

2x Furnishings hurts ZOS more than benefits them, it’s prevented me from spending over 10,000 crowns on furnishing packs in the last year alone. 😂

Same with other outdated benefits, like dying outfits. How many outfits don’t get purchased by non-subscribed players due to an inability to dye them?

This thread is about the craft bag… countless people say they are only subscribed for the craft bag… yet spend their 1,500 crowns they receive each month, then run dungeons that they own through the subscription, and explore zones they wouldn’t have access to otherwise, all while enjoying their XP boost. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

AzuraFan · August 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

This thread is about the craft bag… countless people say they are only subscribed for the craft bag… yet spend their 1,500 crowns they receive each month, then run dungeons that they own through the subscription, and explore zones they wouldn’t have access to otherwise, all while enjoying their XP boost. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Yes, they do, but the overwhelming sentiment in the threads that have talked about ESO+ is that the craft bag is king for most subscribers. The DLCs aren't an issue because you can buy those with a one-time purchase or with your ESO+ crowns. In fact, that's what I've done. Even though I'm a subscriber, I own all the DLCs I care about compliments of my ESO+ crowns, just in case I decide to cancel my sub at some point (plus, my crowns were accumulating because there's not much in the crown store that interests me). But even if I hadn't done that, if I were to unsub, I'd just buy a crown pack, purchase all the DLCs, and be done with it. The DLCs aren't really that huge of a draw, especially now that the number per year has been reduced.

Believe me, I tried to argue that giving away DLCs devalues the sub, but I was in the minority on that one. As for the other perks, only a minority of subscribers would rate any of them #1, at least here on the forums.

(I should have made it clear that my comment to pay for something behind a paywall wasn't directed at you specifically. It was directed at the OP and others who don't seem to understand why the craft bag will never be free or made available for a one-time purchase, unless ZOS decides to toss ESO+ out the window or seriously change it.)

Tyrant_Tim · August 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

This thread is about the craft bag… countless people say they are only subscribed for the craft bag… yet spend their 1,500 crowns they receive each month, then run dungeons that they own through the subscription, and explore zones they wouldn’t have access to otherwise, all while enjoying their XP boost. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Yes, they do, but the overwhelming sentiment in the threads that have talked about ESO+ is that the craft bag is king for most subscribers. The DLCs aren't an issue because you can buy those with a one-time purchase or with your ESO+ crowns. In fact, that's what I've done. Even though I'm a subscriber, I own all the DLCs I care about compliments of my ESO+ crowns, just in case I decide to cancel my sub at some point (plus, my crowns were accumulating because there's not much in the crown store that interests me). But even if I hadn't done that, if I were to unsub, I'd just buy a crown pack, purchase all the DLCs, and be done with it. The DLCs aren't really that huge of a draw, especially now that the number per year has been reduced.

Believe me, I tried to argue that giving away DLCs devalues the sub, but I was in the minority on that one. As for the other perks, only a minority of subscribers would rate any of them #1, at least here on the forums.

(I should have made it clear that my comment to pay for something behind a paywall wasn't directed at you specifically. It was directed at the OP and others who don't seem to understand why the craft bag will never be free or made available for a one-time purchase, unless ZOS decides to toss ESO+ out the window or seriously change it.)

Agreed, we are never getting a craft bag detached from ESO+, which has been visible from the jump. Despite the value of the sub now, that craft bag is always a fall-back.

When ESO lost its mandatory subscription, ZOS was hurting for a gimmick to sell it… there was no value.

So they released the craft bag and proceeded to create inventory bloat that gets worse each patch, just look at old style materials… you used to have to refine 10 raw style materials for a normal one… if that’s not blatant inventory bloat, I don’t know what is. It’s visible in the fact that we don’t get new skill lines, we get new sets. It’s all calculated. Every time a new DLC drops, three sets to collect, three sets to craft, and new style materials.

Which is why I mentioned the furnishing slots, it was yet another thing that got tacked on ESO+ to give a cheap subscription value, when it had none.

I could actually see them backpedaling it while adding a furniture pouch, or other housing related feature. Which was why I brought it up to begin with.

AzuraFan · August 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Which is why I mentioned the furnishing slots, it was yet another thing that got tacked on ESO+ to give a cheap subscription value, when it had none.

True. I find the subscription expensive for what you get. For example, over time, buying the DLCs is cheaper than staying subscribed for years so you can play any zone/dungeon. That's why they need the darn craft bag, like you said. There's only one way to get it.

And yeah, inventory bloat is horrible in this game, and it's deliberately that way to make it so inconvenient that some people will subscribe to ESO+.

(aside: inventory bloat is a problem in most RPGs, including single-player ones where it makes no sense at all. Despite other RPG features advancing over the past 20 years, we're still stuck with the same old inventory problems. Even Baldur's Gate 3, which most people are raving about, has a terrible inventory and the associated terrible inventory management, and I have no doubt Starfield will too.)

Amottica · August 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

[Snip]

It is a mere statement of fact that it is a business decision Zenimax made to keep the crafting bag behind the subscription. It is the driving force for many to keep their ESO+ which generates significantly more annual revenue than selling the DLC released in any given year.

So yea, while I would like to buy the bag outright, I see and respect the wise business decision Zenimax has made.

[Edited for removed quote]

jaws343 · August 2023

laniakea_0 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

I merely suggested that there should be alternative ways to obtain it.

And how would those "alternate" ways generate revenue for Zos? Ongoing, repeatable revenue? Because that's what they have now. And if you have no answer to that question, then it's just a selfish unrealistic request.

the continuous development of new content. you know, the thing they've been doing every quarter for more than 6 years at the least.

So, it is your contention that a $40 payment once a year will generate the same amount of revenue as a $14 per month subscription? Is this seriously what you're going with? That's not only terribly naive, it's incredibly disingenuous.

why would it matter that it's more? isn't it obvious that it's more than enough to fund them either way? they sold like 18 million copies of the game plus all the new players they keep attracting. from the chapters alone, they make millions every year. and then there's the other DLC as well. besides, even if they took the craft bag out of it to any degree at all, there would still be plenty of people using ESO+
so why would you think that it makes any difference when it comes to funding the studio and the servers.

This fundamentally misunderstands this games "sales".

An entire third of the playerbase can play the game for free using game pass.

Players who have eso+ don't have to buy dlc. And many use their "free" crowns to buy them directly anyways.

Those two factors alone account for far less initial purchase revenue than eso+.

I mean just look at the difference between 3 dlc on a normal year and an eso+ sub.

3 dlc are going to net you around 60$ or so a year.

Eso+ is 191 after tax.

So, a player no longer subbing due to the craft bag being removed, and only buying the new dlc, is a 70% reduction in revenue. No company is surviving a 70% reduction in revenue.

laniakea_0 · August 2023

unless, they are asking for way more than they actually need of course... considering how overpriced crown store items are, especially compared to the actual DLC in the crown store, I'd say that's nothing new. you have an initial buy-in and then you have a full price expansion every year. that alone has to net them enough money to keep everything funded. any good AAA game took years to develop and still made much more money than would've been needed to cover all costs. So it's only reasonable to assume that the initial purchase gets them enough money to fund the development and a whole lot more, and then they even supplement that with the full price expansion every year. and then there is still the money from all the other DLC that they get from people buying it directly or through ESO+. Are you still convinced that this is not enough to fund the studio and the servers? they really don't need to rely on ESO+ being this essential. I really don't get why a lot of you are even defending this practice! they are obviously asking for so much more than they actually need to keep everything funded.

fact is, the Craft Bag is a game changer. a definitive P2W mechanic when it comes to crafting. e.g. Items like Aetherial Dust have such a low drop chance that you need to be able to pick up every crafting node without concern for your inventory space in order to actually find them. I don't have ESO+ and I have to use half my inventory, all of my bank space and at least 2 large storage chests just to get everything I need for 4 crafting disciplines. If I were to pick up everything and do all disciplines, I wouldn't have enough inventory space to do anything else at all. and even then I'd have access to significantly less resources from the ease of my own inventory I can access at any time. you all said it yourself, a lot less people would sub if it wasn't for the craft bag. Is it really too much to ask for more attractive ESO+ bonuses that don't include P2W mechanics?

Aislinna · August 2023

A business exists solely to make as much profit as it can. Discussing how much profit a business "needs" is like us (strangers) discussing how much salary you "need".

Mathius_Mordred · August 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

[Snip]

So let me get this right. You expect a business to give its products away without a regular income. How exactly is that going to work? How long do you expect them to stay in business?

[Edited to remove quote]

laniakea_0 · August 2023

Aislinna wrote: »

A business exists solely to make as much profit as it can. Discussing how much profit a business "needs" is like us (strangers) discussing how much salary you "need".

Customer protection advocators would have a field day with what you just said. there is a difference between being profitable, and overcharging.

Aislinna · August 2023

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

A business exists solely to make as much profit as it can. Discussing how much profit a business "needs" is like us (strangers) discussing how much salary you "need".

Customer protection advocators would have a field day with what you just said. there is a difference between being profitable, and overcharging.

Then you should report ZOS to whichever Socialist agency you think handles this.

laniakea_0 · August 2023

Aislinna wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

A business exists solely to make as much profit as it can. Discussing how much profit a business "needs" is like us (strangers) discussing how much salary you "need".

Customer protection advocators would have a field day with what you just said. there is a difference between being profitable, and overcharging.

Then you should report ZOS to whichever Socialist agency you think handles this.

not sure where you are from that you would consider fair prices to be Socialist.

Aislinna · August 2023

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

A business exists solely to make as much profit as it can. Discussing how much profit a business "needs" is like us (strangers) discussing how much salary you "need".

Customer protection advocators would have a field day with what you just said. there is a difference between being profitable, and overcharging.

Then you should report ZOS to whichever Socialist agency you think handles this.

not sure where you are from that you would consider fair prices to be Socialist.

I'm from the USA, a capitalist society where the first rule in business is to make as much profit as you can. I consider agencies that would try to regulate a free market economy to be socialist. I don't know of any "customer protection advocators", just people posting in forums about wanting things for free. Not sure what country you are from that has to be protected from "overcharged" prices for entertainment. But since you brought up "customer protection advocators", again, you should report ZOS to them, socialist or not.

Blood_again · August 2023

laniakea_0 wrote: »

fact is, the Craft Bag is a game changer. a definitive P2W mechanic when it comes to crafting. e.g. Items like Aetherial Dust have such a low drop chance that you need to be able to pick up every crafting node without concern for your inventory space in order to actually find them. I don't have ESO+ and I have to use half my inventory, all of my bank space and at least 2 large storage chests just to get everything I need for 4 crafting disciplines. If I were to pick up everything and do all disciplines, I wouldn't have enough inventory space to do anything else at all.

I think you're exaggerating the meaning of crafting bags.
I played without ESO+ for years before. Bought it for bulk DLC access. Yes, crafting bags are a huge plus, it adds crafting, farming and gathering comfort very much. But it is so far from P2W. They are neither mandatory, nor important.

One of my guild mates played a year without ESO+ just to prove his friend that it is doable to play endgame crafter without bags. He did writs, masterwrits and many more without a huge problem, so he proved it.

Yes, playing full dedicated crafter without bags require some solid work. It includes inventory planning and internal order. It bans a habit of hoarding everything you found. It forces you to reconsider if you really need to store basic style stone or actually your inventory space is more valuable than 15gold for one.
It is not really a struggle, if you played different games. Remember Guild series? Could you play it without planning carefully?

What the crafting bags really do: they make playing crafter very casual. You don't need to think about many details if you use them. Many people want it casual, so they are ready to pay for it, that's the key. But make things casual don't make it P2W.

If you craft and have never used bags before, I can tell you what happens in short time after you started using it. You play as crafter less and less time. You seek for other activities to fill your time you spent on crafting before. Actually you almost stop crafting.
Yes, it is a game changer. But do you still think it is P2W?! It is Pay-2-Stop-It

Naftal · August 2023

ebix_ wrote: »

You can even add a way to pay gold to activated Craft bag monthly which also works as a great gold sink for game.

Just out of curiosity, how much gold do you think a month of craft bag should cost?

ZOS_Volpe · August 2023

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts that were baiting and non-constructive, we must remind everyone that all should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules that we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.