ZOS Stop Making the mistakes of the past

Zarec · May 2014

Endolith wrote: »

ZOS does have a big company backing it. Zenimax is one the largest, if not the largest, privately held video game companies in the U.S. and was valued at $1.2 billion a few years ago according to Wikipedia (and that was before Skyrim). That's the parent company that owns Bethesda, ZOS, and others.

Unfortunately, they are becoming as infamous as EA is known to be. That is not a good thing.

SeñorCinco · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

I called them ZOE for the longest time before realizing my mistake and I still type it before I catch myself.

I completely understand, my friend.

blackwolf7 · May 2014

S is very near to E , when typing in phone it is completely unavoidable

RingobloodtheOld · May 2014

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

It's a Mass Effect 3 situation. They promise one thing, deliver another, tell you that's what they intended the whole time, then throw out quick fixes.

But yet Bioware and EA still exist, making games, and people are buying and playing, what it comes down to is Money, if ppl play/buy the bucks will come, no matter what we say or do.

SunfireKnight86 · May 2014

I'm going to divide my response up into two parts. Not to be snarky, just to address two issues.

1) An MMO is different. If people get pissed and put the game down ZOS loses out on all that money they would have made with subs.

2) A lot of people claimed they wouldn't buy Bioware games anymore after ME3, myself included. We'll see how many people will stick to it once Dragon Age 3 comes out. I for one, will probably never buy another Bioware game. I say probably because in ten years they may pull their heads out of their asses.

Zarec · May 2014

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

I'm going to divide my response up into two parts. Not to be snarky, just to address two issues.

1) An MMO is different. If people get pissed and put the game down ZOS loses out on all that money they would have made with subs.

2) A lot of people claimed they wouldn't buy Bioware games anymore after ME3, myself included. We'll see how many people will stick to it once Dragon Age 3 comes out. I for one, will probably never buy another Bioware game. I say probably because in ten years they may pull their heads out of their asses.

I refused to play another game published by SOE that was an mmo even if F2P after the SWG fiasco. I have held onto that to this day.

BW took a huge hit in their consumer confidence with ME3 and SWtor (granted SWtor was more EA sticking their hands where they don't belong but you get the idea). Public opinion is a powerful thing and has hurt companies in the past. Something ZOS should take to heart.

U4IASTRM · May 2014

This was probably the very first thread I read from beginning to end. These are some damn good points raised here. I hope anyone reading about Craglorn comes to this very thread. I want to like ESO, but I just cannot bring myself to enter my CC info again with all that ZOS has done/not done. Thanks for the read guys!

blackwolf7 · May 2014

U4IASTRM wrote: »

This was probably the very first thread I read from beginning to end. These are some damn good points raised here. I hope anyone reading about Craglorn comes to this very thread. I want to like ESO, but I just cannot bring myself to enter my CC info again with all that ZOS has done/not done. Thanks for the read guys!

Were on the same boat. I like the game. I just dont like how the company runs it.

SunfireKnight86 · May 2014

Same. I love the Elder Scrolls IP. I have played every one of their games for the last 14 years. I've modded them, replayed them countless times, wrote fanfics, (make fun if you want, fanfics are how I got started as a writer) and sunk at least a thousand and a half hours into them. I want this game to be good. I'm willing to stick it out until it is or until it dies.

Arbi · May 2014

To OP. I agree with you in what you wrote For better or worse I am just so in love with this game that at least for now I can not see myself walk away from it despite the many annoyances I experience every time I play because things do not work as they are supposed to.

I estimate I have lost maybe 40-50k gold in-game from repair bills caused by Defeat, that in turn was caused by bugs and was not my own fault, together with respeccing skills twice (that was 30k right there) to get rid of buggy morphs that hampered my playing. That is in-game Money I could have used to buy a couple of motifs or another mount. Not to mention the time wasted from these unnecessary defeats. Suddenly in combat not being able to fight back, or when exploring and suddenly falling through the World have been the major culprits here for me.

The game is awesome to me despite these flaws. That does not mean I Think it is ok to not keep promises I just chose to play the game regardless. Atleast so far I do - and keep hoping for improvement.

When it comes to the broken skills and the many bugs I DO see some improvement and I hope eventually it will all be fixed. The falling through the World has stopped at least, so that is one thing less to be afraid of. Some skills (far from all unfortunately) have been fixed as well.

Zarec · May 2014

ArlandELDERSCROLLS wrote: »

To OP. I agree with you in what you wrote For better or worse I am just so in love with this game that at least for now I can not see myself walk away from it despite the many annoyances I experience every time I play because things do not work as they are supposed to.

I estimate I have lost maybe 40-50k gold in-game from repair bills caused by Defeat, that in turn was caused by bugs and was not my own fault, together with respeccing skills twice (that was 30k right there) to get rid of buggy morphs that hampered my playing. That is in-game Money I could have used to buy a couple of motifs or another mount. Not to mention the time wasted from these unnecessary defeats. Suddenly in combat not being able to fight back, or when exploring and suddenly falling through the World have been the major culprits here for me.

The game is awesome to me despite these flaws. That does not mean I Think it is ok to not keep promises I just chose to play the game regardless. Atleast so far I do - and keep hoping for improvement.

When it comes to the broken skills and the many bugs I DO see some improvement and I hope eventually it will all be fixed. The falling through the World has stopped at least, so that is one thing less to be afraid of. Some skills (far from all unfortunately) have been fixed as well.

I unfortunately have lost faith with ZOS for the time being and don't see that changing unless they make a conscious effort to address many of the issues that i spoke about in my OP. I currently have four days left on my sub due to the free five days. I've decided not to resub and won't till some things change. I work hard for what little money I have to spend on myself and unfortunately, ZOS has shown they are not worth spending that sub fee on till some things are changed.

- Keeping the balance changes for PVP separate from PVE.

- Fixing the skill lines of all classes. I don't care about new content and many players don't as how can we experience the new content if many skill lines are broken.

- Keeping promises and or sticking to what you say. If you as a company are unable to keep to what you say, explain why. We as a community are not mind readers (if we have a mind reader in the group, please speak up now, my cat keeps peeing in my shoe and I want to know why)

- Actually fix the bugs you are trying to fix...how many times did it take to fix motes in the moonlight? And for all that is good and holy/or unholy for those individuals, stop breaking skill lines further...actually test the changes prior to implementation. If you had tested the speed reduction for elusive mist, you would have noticed that instead of 30% speed boost, it is instead 0% speed boost.

- Don't nerf something if you don't plan to actually fix it at the same time or prior. You have done it twice to WW now already and dear god they need fixed...not *** further due to your ignorance.

Audigy · May 2014

To the community,
What are your views on the points that I have touched on? Do you feel you have been lied to or mislead? Do you feel that you should have a wait and see approach?

I don't feel that they lied to me, the game is exactly as I did expect it and a lot more stable and better than pretty much most MMO release clients in the past 6-7 years.

Only one quest was bugged for me, they are very fast with fixing things and the downtimes are not as long as in many other MMO´s + at a good time for me and my RL at least. That they messed up once or twice with a patch, well it happens. No MMO started without issue´s, its pretty much always like that and ESO is already miles ahead of other MMO´s so that's a good sign.

I also like that they keep Addons in such a way that they cant be abused to harass other gamers, you can see your own performance if you like but not of someone else, that's good!

Also in regards of grouping, you have it much easier than in other games. Its not about who tags first, but about who actually attacks or heals during a fight. No longer do we need to go through the hassle of asking around if someone wants to join our group or fight about spawn locations to get the tag.

The future will show which way ESO will go, Craglorn is around the corner a patch for the more hardcore based gamers and guilds. While I don't think I will go there any time soon, it shows that they also try to add new things for those that play a bit more serious.

I hope they improve the performance of their client a bit further and that they add things like housing soon

blackwolf7 · May 2014

Please fix this asap. It is unfair that when pvp babies cried for nerf you gave in and when we wanted to fix a bug you dont bother?

We are paying as much as they do.

Beast85 · May 2014

All i read is a sad but true statement. I don't like the most dangerous member of this comunity. The paladins of the game. By stating that everything is ok. Is perfect you are misleading devs and helping this project to fail. Like the beta testers. I cant believe that close beta tester FAILED to see those bugs or unbalanced skills. I would love this game to get better. And we don't need 5 days of free gametime. We need fixes.

Zarec · May 2014

I think this sums up many a players issues quite nicely (cursing in the first video, not safe at work or around impressionable kids)

http://youtu.be/OnCIW7JwnVI

Then watch

http://youtu.be/-nHT2j9CjB8

Each of us have different opinions. It doesn't mean that we are wrong. It just means we came to this game with different expectations. I wanted to post this to try and point that out. I know a lot of people (myself included) have hated on this game at times. It doesn't mean that our opinions are not valid nor does it mean that yours are not valid. It just means that ZOS failed to meet our expectations from what we expected of an ES game...or in your case met.

The first video fits my feelings perfectly, as I honestly expected better and feel more betrayed by what ZOS has done to the ES franchise by this installment. I hope it will get better, but I honestly don't see that happening for at least 6 months and I don't wish to spend that much on this game and not be able to enjoy it and feel like my money spent was worth it.

The second video's message is form your own opinion. Don't let public opinion sway you from playing a game as you may like it. Also, all hope isn't lost as this game will be around a while. When this game goes F2P, if you end up canceling your sub like I have, maybe that would be the time to pick it back up. You all take care. I only have a few days left on my free month after that I'll prob only check out the patch notes to see how things are progressing and if bugs are getting fixed. Just right now, too many things are wrong with the game that make it unenjoyable.

neocomab16_ESO · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

Endolith wrote: »

ZOS does have a big company backing it. Zenimax is one the largest, if not the largest, privately held video game companies in the U.S. and was valued at $1.2 billion a few years ago according to Wikipedia (and that was before Skyrim). That's the parent company that owns Bethesda, ZOS, and others.

Unfortunately, they are becoming as infamous as EA is known to be. That is not a good thing.

Difference is, EA still has FIFA and Madden to push every year, oh and CoD ...so EA can still make money.

neocomab16_ESO · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

http://youtu.be/-nHT2j9CjB8

This guy gets it. An MMO has to be like WoW at least because WoW is the baseline experience MMO players expect. If you cant deliver, you fail. That is the thing. Plus, they didnt deliver the core mechanics of an ES game ...the sandbox aspect those of us badly miss ...that kind of stuff.

And I still dont get why developers still believe they can ship a game that has quality standards from 12 years ago. You know, the times when MMOs where a niche product, buggy...and developed over time into something better. These MMOs had a small fanbase who struggled through the bugs and whatnot and at this time it worked. Nowadays, and thanks to WoW ...this has changed a lot. Devs have to deal with that fact.

As a dev, nowadays when you create an MMO, you dont create something worse than WoW, you dont even create something on par with WoW. You either create something better, or you dont create it at all.

And to all you "but WoW has 10 years development on its belt" sayers. So what? This game was in the making for 7 years now. How can they not come up with something polished and better during these years? How can they not create something that is at least as appealing to themepark lovers as it is to sandbox (ES fans) alike? Why not at least create a true hybrid? Why not let people play the way they want to? Why is balancing in terms of combat performance heavily centered around staff/cloth combos? Why arent there meaningful choices? Or even housing ...or pickpocketing...or robbing houses ...or whatever? If they delivered a polished product and brought at least some cool ES features, if they had the balls to create housing from the start, now that is something people would cherish because NO MMO thus far has launched with housing. Or other cool stuff. It is always the basic experience, the same old stuff ...the same boring voice acting, granted it is great, but in the long run we dont care. We dont talk about ESo in 4 years glorifying the voice overs. We talk about the bugs. You know, like "when I played ESo, first week I made millions by using an autoclicker". That is what people talk about.

I hate to see developers doing it wrong over and over again because we are still stuck with WoW. Why do people who like MMOs play WoW? Because they either like it or because there is no real alternative. Why pay for a mediocre product if you can have something better for the same price?

At least, and that is - although double edged blade - the communities have the power, to certain degree, to change stuff. Thanks to the internet and stuff going viral we kind of have the power to crush developers. Sounds hard but the fact that the majority of us simply doesnt care if the product sucks and leaves and also wont buy another game made by that company, to seems to have a huge impact on the long run.

Times are over that devs and investors expect us to eat dirt for months while paying for an unfinished Alpha. (Yes, dont even consider it a beta anymore, too many issues everywhere). We move on. hate us for it, call us locusts, whatever. But in the end, someone has to teach them that you dont screw your customers over. Keep doing it and WoW will stay the only MMO worth playing until they screw it, too. And then, the market might be open for some smaller devs who have the balls to create something new, who are talented and interested in their communities. Look at EVE. They are stable for years, they have loyal customers, they did their own thing and it worked for them. Game is boring as crap but the meta is the best there is out there for at least a decade by now.

KerinKor · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 was riddled with bugs upon going live and their developers could not get them fixed in a timely manner causing a massive exodus of players who were disgusted with broken promises, unplayable characters, and continuous downtime. You seem to be making the same mistakes that they made.

No.

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

For one, FFXIV didnt fail to bugs, it failed by being a bad game.

Yes.

Comparing ESO and FFXIV V1 is to totally miss the abomination FFXIV V1 was as a game.

To be frank there weren't any really horrendous bugs, no equivalent of bank wipes, server downtime was terrible but it was a new MMO launch and only the rage-quitters didn't give SE time to fix it .. in that respect ESO is the same.

No, FFXIV V1 died because it had no right to live, it had now end-game at all, no questing system with anything and in essence was an example of the worst kind of 'Asian' grindfest that was not fun even for most die-hard FF fans: the huge irony was that during the tile FFXIV V1 was being lashed together, FFXI (which was SE's avowed FF take on EQ) was being changed FROM the grindfest group-or-die game into one more in tune with MMO players of this century.

To their eternal credit SE understood that and FFXIV V2 is unarguably a success due to it being a very good game of the type SE have made it.

I see few parallels between the mistakes ZOS have made and those of SE, nor do I think there's much similarity in the potential reasons for ESO's failure and those that rightly sunk FFXIV V1 without a trace.

I also think that IF ESO fails ZOS won't do what SE did with FFXIV V1 .. I think it was only because SE is a Japanese company that we saw V2, 'western' MMOs developers would pull the plug of go off into a corner crying .. or worse, go F2P and cause the game a long, lingering death as LOTRO is suffering in terms of the integrity of the game.

sahib · May 2014

neocomab16_ESO wrote: »

As a dev, nowadays when you create an MMO, you dont create something worse than WoW, you dont even create something on par with WoW. You either create something better, or you dont create it at all.

I think that's my biggest problem with ESO after experiencing it for a month. They tried to combine an Elder Scrolls formula with the MMO formula.

Problem is, the MMO aspects of ESO are lacking and are way behind their competitors in the MMO market. At the same time, this game could have been set in "Fantasy World #46" and nobody would be able to tell the difference, because it doesn't really feel like an Elder Scrolls game (IMHO).

So, essentially, they tried to achieve two goals and ended up coming up short on both...

Zazar · May 2014

It's quite entertaining to watch people arguing like they'll change the world.

BaKaNoOB · May 2014

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

It's a Mass Effect 3 situation. They promise one thing, deliver another, tell you that's what they intended the whole time, then throw out quick fixes.

So true...
This game is fun cause my bad hobby to craft my gear to the max ,reach max level and complete the storry. then i'll probably un-sub.

PS. Also to the players who state that WoW is the basic i agree. As For Fantastic MMO - GW2 is the best MMO that i had played, still play for about 2 years now and is free to play.
It also had problems on launch but it was following GW1 feel and is the best MMO for me in the moment on the market (still have some bugs thought).

My tought is that if there is MMO it must be at least good as GW2 especially if it's
pay-to -play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-_06Acj8Y

steveb16_ESO46 · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

I have to agree. ZOS had a very bold mission statement and I as a gamer feel they fell short of meeting it. The hype that was built for this game, I feel left many a player feeling let down when they actually were able to get their hands on it. I have many people I play SWtor within my guild of close to 300 that refuse to play this game due to not only player reviews but what they saw and reported in beta but were never fixed. That makes me sad but I honestly agree with many of their points. ZOS has, it seems in my opinion, fallen prey to many decisions that have plagued other game companies.

Sadly I agree. now - I'm a big fan of this game and am here for the long haul. My former LOTRO kinship were very excited about this game, we were hoping to move over here.

But then they played the beta and then the largely unfixed beta became the release.

You get one chance to make a good impression and I'm afraid ZMO really blew it by releasing to a pre-set marketing schedule and treating paying customers as beta testers.

You want to be a premium sub game? You don't do that sort of crap and if your game design leaves you obviously wide open to botters you have your bear traps and hunters ready on Day 1.

Even with ESO now just £18 in GAME (with 60 day time cards) my old kinship aren't interested. The memory of broken quest after broken quest and the inability to group with who you want when you want is too strong.

It's sad because this could be a great game if it can avoid becoming another Store With A Game Attached.

But I'm loving it.

Blackwidow · May 2014

OMG! Even the NPCs are quitting ESO and going back to Skyrim!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBNq9yoCK_Q&feature=youtu.be

Zarec · May 2014

KerinKor wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 was riddled with bugs upon going live and their developers could not get them fixed in a timely manner causing a massive exodus of players who were disgusted with broken promises, unplayable characters, and continuous downtime. You seem to be making the same mistakes that they made.

No.

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

For one, FFXIV didnt fail to bugs, it failed by being a bad game.

Yes.

Comparing ESO and FFXIV V1 is to totally miss the abomination FFXIV V1 was as a game.

To be frank there weren't any really horrendous bugs, no equivalent of bank wipes, server downtime was terrible but it was a new MMO launch and only the rage-quitters didn't give SE time to fix it .. in that respect ESO is the same.

No, FFXIV V1 died because it had no right to live, it had now end-game at all, no questing system with anything and in essence was an example of the worst kind of 'Asian' grindfest that was not fun even for most die-hard FF fans: the huge irony was that during the tile FFXIV V1 was being lashed together, FFXI (which was SE's avowed FF take on EQ) was being changed FROM the grindfest group-or-die game into one more in tune with MMO players of this century.

To their eternal credit SE understood that and FFXIV V2 is unarguably a success due to it being a very good game of the type SE have made it.

I see few parallels between the mistakes ZOS have made and those of SE, nor do I think there's much similarity in the potential reasons for ESO's failure and those that rightly sunk FFXIV V1 without a trace.

I also think that IF ESO fails ZOS won't do what SE did with FFXIV V1 .. I think it was only because SE is a Japanese company that we saw V2, 'western' MMOs developers would pull the plug of go off into a corner crying .. or worse, go F2P and cause the game a long, lingering death as LOTRO is suffering in terms of the integrity of the game.

You state an opinion as to why the death of the game was for ffxiv 1.0. I stated mine. Yes they didn't have an end game. Yes it was a huge grind fest. But those weren't its only problems. But I digress.

In this day and age if game developers are not willing to go above and beyond the standards blizzard has set with wow, then why should I as a consumer pick their game to play? Many of us picked this game up because of the elder scrolls name. What we received instead of a hybrid style mmo/solo style game was a bastardization of both where it's neither. We have bugs galore, missing elements that were a staple of the ES franchise. You must pay extra to be the best tank in the game or play any faction with one race. You either have to wait weeks to buy a horse or sacrifice expanding inv space or pay extra to get a horse out the gate. There are a lot of things in this game that make me shake my head at. Will be interesting to see how quickly this game goes f2p as I think they will do it faster than Tera and swtor.