Should classes be Updated/Overhauled

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

Don't they constantly update classes due to "balance" (especially for PvP needs)?

And mind you, they overhauled Vampire. Not a class, I know, but doing that to a class would mean doing that to its skill lines...
Are you sure you want that?

its going to be difficult for them to make necromancer worse than it already is lol

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

Rampeal wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Mechanically Warden is the best class by far, it really has it all besides spammable skills which are abundant in weapon lines. Hence it's the most fun to play and the most versatile in PvP, imho.

Thematically, whether coherent or not, it's nicely opposed to the theme of DK. Fire and Ice, Geology and Flora/Fauna. I see NB as the only without a thematic opposite: DK and Warden, Necro and Templar, Sorc and Arcanist - and all of these pairs have a range of mechanically similar skills.

Are you really a warden though when only 20% of your skills are warden abilities and the rest are weapon/world skills?

If only 2 of your skills are Warden abilities (20% of 10 abilities), you're either playing Warden wrong or nerfing yourself on purpose. They have a number of fantastic abilities. Pretty much the only thing they lack is a good spammable and good armor buff, and even then, the spammable is only bad in PvP.

Warden needs to outsource their spammable, and maybe grab their armor buff from Chudan to slot something more useful. They have in-class sorcery/brutality, in-class minor sustain, both sticky and ground DoTs, in-class burst with tied-in fracture, in-class mobility, in-class defense with Slab, in-class prohecy/savagery, and an in-class on-demand stun.

For comparison, necro needs to outsource:
- their spammable (in PvP)
- fracture
- mobility
- Sorcery/Brutality
- Prophecy/Savagery
- Sticky DoTs in PvP/mobile PvE encounters
- an on demand stun

If you wanna play the "not able to run enough class abilities" game, necromancer is far and away the worst offender.

TaSheen · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

If only 2 of your skills are Warden abilities (20% of 10 abilities), you're either playing Warden wrong or nerfing yourself on purpose. They have a number of fantastic abilities. Pretty much the only thing they lack is a good spammable and good armor buff, and even then, the spammable is only bad in PvP.

The only non warden skill I use is a weapon spammable. I don't bar swap (mega ping interferes horribly with that) so I just moved all my wardens into Oakensoul builds (non-HA though).

KlauthWarthog · August 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its going to be difficult for them to make necromancer worse than it already is lol

Do not word things like this, they might take it as a challenge.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its going to be difficult for them to make necromancer worse than it already is lol

Do not word things like this, they might take it as a challenge.

Honestly at this point, bring it on ZOS. At least it'd mean that Necromancer gets an actually meaningful change.

Morimizo · August 2023

I wish they would have stuck with the tried and true Elder Scrolls style of build your own class; characters could choose any three class lines, two weapon lines, and off you go. Folks could still run the generic classes if they so chose. I prefer variety and customization above most other aspects in any game.

But update the current classes? Don't worry, the nerf hammer is equal opportunity. They'll get to it.

Fenris_Arainai · August 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

Don't they constantly update classes due to "balance" (especially for PvP needs)?

And mind you, they overhauled Vampire. Not a class, I know, but doing that to a class would mean doing that to its skill lines...
Are you sure you want that?

its going to be difficult for them to make necromancer worse than it already is lol

Dev 1: hold my beer!

Dev 2: challenge accepted!

Lumenn · August 2023

Monkeys paw.......

Turtle_Bot · August 2023

Rampeal wrote: »

Sorcerer is confusing to be honest. I can see the summoning of daedra and atronachs, that is all well and good. It makes sense for it to be a daedra class, but lightning makes absolutely no sense. I mean lightning is considered to be of the natural world and falls more under Kyne's domain rather than daedra. Infact all spells not associated with daedra come from Magnus which is a Aedra. Including the Staff skill line.

It just seems to come out of left field. Would have been better if they made a Atronachs line, Daedra line, and Oblivion magic line. It would have been better themed.

Sorcerer never used to be like its current iteration though. It used to be a heavily arcane focused mage using lightning and dark (crystal) magic with some daedric magic (curses, wards and self enchancments) thrown in that could also summon a couple of pets if it wanted to. It's "daedric magics" used to be more focused on the non-pet skills of curse, ward and bound armor.

Over the years it's been forced into pet builds due to constant nerfs (alongside minimal short lived buffs) to every other playstyle it has/had and only ever getting lasting buffs to the pets. It's reached a point now where even stamsorcs are running pets for PvE since pets are the only viable way to play the class in PvE outside of a HA build.

The devs should have just left sorcerer as it was, an arcane mage that has lightning, dark and some daedric magics and created a separate summoner class and moved the pets to that class and created 2 new skill lines based on summons (atronach, daedric beasts and mystical summons) instead of forcing sorcerer entirely into exclusively being something that used to just be an afterthought or role play aspect for the class.

My guess is the dev team don't know what to do with sorcerer anymore without splitting it into 2 completely separate classes which will create huge issues unless they hand out class change tokens to every sorc, so they've just continued to tinker with the class here and there, which has only created more and more issues for the class.

Anumaril · August 2023

I'm fully in favour of necromancer being overhauled completely. I'm so tired of basically being a "dark wizard" with only 1 "long"-lasting minion (skeletal arcanist). I think the necro gameplay style should be swarming the enemy with a handful of minions at melee range or something along those lines you need to empower and upkeep.

The focus should be on your minions, not you.

Turtle_Bot · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Mechanically Warden is the best class by far, it really has it all besides spammable skills which are abundant in weapon lines. Hence it's the most fun to play and the most versatile in PvP, imho.

Thematically, whether coherent or not, it's nicely opposed to the theme of DK. Fire and Ice, Geology and Flora/Fauna. I see NB as the only without a thematic opposite: DK and Warden, Necro and Templar, Sorc and Arcanist - and all of these pairs have a range of mechanically similar skills.

Are you really a warden though when only 20% of your skills are warden abilities and the rest are weapon/world skills?

If only 2 of your skills are Warden abilities (20% of 10 abilities), you're either playing Warden wrong or nerfing yourself on purpose. They have a number of fantastic abilities. Pretty much the only thing they lack is a good spammable and good armor buff, and even then, the spammable is only bad in PvP.

Warden needs to outsource their spammable, and maybe grab their armor buff from Chudan to slot something more useful. They have in-class sorcery/brutality, in-class minor sustain, both sticky and ground DoTs, in-class burst with tied-in fracture, in-class mobility, in-class defense with Slab, in-class prohecy/savagery, and an in-class on-demand stun.

For comparison, necro needs to outsource:
- their spammable (in PvP)
- fracture
- mobility
- Sorcery/Brutality
- Prophecy/Savagery
- Sticky DoTs in PvP/mobile PvE encounters
- an on demand stun

If you wanna play the "not able to run enough class abilities" game, necromancer is far and away the worst offender.

warden armor buff is really good, no idea why a warden wouldn't run it, especially in group play too. Only thing warden is lacking is a spammable (easily fixed from weapon/world lines) and an on demand stun (arctic got its 2sec delay added back to the stun).

Agreed, necro needs a lot of help as a class, but sorc (from a PvP point of view) is not far ahead of necro (if we are looking at class skills exclusively and not the "procsorcs" that rely entirely on proc sets to do 90% of the work for them).
Sorc needs to outsource:
- reliable burst heal (shields work fine in PvE as a substitute for this while crit surge ticks, but they just instantly melt in PvP and don't provide enough utility for the investment required to get them to a suitable size for this purpose).
- defensive HoT (crit surge requires dealing damage, not something able to be done when under a lot of pressure on a class that already has significant healing issues)
- spammable (frags/weapon are better as a delayed burst, not a true spammable)
- breach/fracture
- prophecy/savagery (strange that this hasn't even been considered for the class kit considering the class "HoT" requires getting crits to proc it)
- sticky DoTs (pets don't cut it for PvP and don't count as DoTs or abilities cast by the player so don't proc secondary effects like crit surge heal or proc sets, and hurricane/lightning form is melee, 5m, only, hardly the best on a ranged class that needs to stay moving, especially after majority of melee ranges got increased to 7m base....)
- AoE

For PvE, pets/hurricane handle DoT requirements fine and crit surge/wards handle healing, hence why oakensorc is so common for PvE, it gives all the buffs the class needs and more and (in PvE) the class doesn't need the bar space anyway since nothing in the class kit is worth slotting over oakensoul and the only thing missing from 1 bar for PvE is a spammable which there is plenty of room for, especially if the HA is made the spammable.

Rowjoh · August 2023

everything else gets updraded, degraded, buffed and nerfed at some point or another, so it's inevitable anyway.

ixthUA · August 2023

I want wardens to become brown wizards:

This is Radagast the Brown from Hobbit.

Ragnarok0130 · August 2023

Tandor wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

In some areas yes.. mostly for graphics like ability/spell animations, colors, textures, lighting, and other 3d special effects. To make them look more realistic and unique.

I'd be in favour if that involved "downgrading" the Arcanists' ability/spell animations, colours, textures, lighting, and other 3d special effects, rather than "upgrading" those things for the other classes.

In other respects no, the game functions well as it is without constantly changing things for the sake of it.

I'm in favor of a client side toggle or slide adjuster for this. The animations and coloring has already been unnecessarily neutered based on "accessibility". I liked the original versions of the arcanist and don't want it downgraded any further.

Overall (to the OP) I think classes should be looked at and adjusted where necessary to keep them competitive with newer classes but retaining their current skills and identity. I want deliberate scalpel adjustments to classes not an overhaul/wrecking ball where the classes look very little like they do currently.

StarOfElyon · August 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Necromancer needs an overhaul. It's such a clunky class and it's too similar to Warden. The other classes just need some reworks.

This. A solid portion of necromancers abilities either don't function at all or aren't worth the bar slot.

The recent skulls buff was great, and the ability hits hard, but in PvP it still feels terrible to use because the projectile is far too slow and telegraphed. The ability also feels awful to light attack weave because each cast has a separate and distinct animation.

The tethers are awful outside of completely stationary fights (and even then, nearly every trial boss that's come out since Necro dropped has had issues with the tether hitboxes).

The Fear Totem is still bugged and doesn't fear until 4 seconds into the duration in most circumstances. Good job fixing this one in the "bug fix" patch. Outside of the bug, the ability is unusable as an offensive stun in PvP.

Empowering Grasp is a waste of mag. It's expensive, difficult to land, and only buffs your pets if you hit them - an extremely difficult task when your pets constantly move around as you move, and most often position themselves at the side or back of you. The empower on this ability is also worthless in PvP.

They lack both of the major offensive buffs in the game, one of which (sorcery/brutality) is mandatory in all content on all builds. They also lack an on demand stun (something every other class has) and any sort of mobility - no expedition, no gap closer, no snare removal. They don't need all of these tools, but the fact they don't have a single one of them is a joke.

Their pets cannot be commanded with the command pet keybind like normal pets can, and yet, they cannot proc any sets. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to proc sets when they function identically to non-pet abilities. Additionally, the skeletal mage and its morphs were butchered by 40% in U35, despite the fact that they don't actually count as DoTs, aren't buffed by Necro's passive, and can be blocked.

Necrotic Potency/Deaden Pain refresh the HoT duration even if the refresh is a shorter duration. This means you have to choose between continuing to heal yourself or sucking up a corpse for the ult. The ultimate generation is second to none, but having to give up a good HoT doesn't make the ability feel great to use when you need the HoT.

Graveyard was butchered despite all its power coming from the (now nerfed) harmony trait, making the ability to use your own synergy worthless. It should not have been nerfed alongside the harmony nerf, and especially not by how much it was.

Blastbones is the only saving grace, as it does an insane amount of damage, but it has its own fair share of issues as everyone should be aware of by now. The Animate Blastbones ultimate, arguably the most "necromancer" ability they have, is a wasted cast more often than not. Since you can't command your pets, the blastbones summoned from the ultimate will just fail to pick a target too often. Not a good look for the most expensive ultimate in the game.

Editing to be fair: Resistant Flesh is also a crazy good burst heal and probably the other saving grace.

Necro needs help, has needed help, and will continue to need help because ZOS has shown no indication of wanting to make any changes to the things that are actually wrong with the class.

During one BG match, I watched my blastbones just stand there instead of chasing a fleeing target. I need a target to summon the blastbones yet that blastbones doesn't chase the target when it summons. It stood there and watched the target run away. I started swinging my axe at the blastbones trying to kick his *** until it despawned. It should ALWAYS go after the target that was used to summon it no matter what! Also, it needs to put on some swift traits or something because I can outrun it and that is also frustrating.

ZOS_Icy · August 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.