Should classes be Updated/Overhauled

Rampeal

With the new Arcanist class out and the unique ability to combo abilities together using crux, It begs the question whether or not all the previous classes should get a overhaul or at least updated to synergize better with the other trees.

For example the Warden is a Mess. Almost none of the branching trees work with each other and the Identity of the class is left up to question of what it is? Is the Warden a Ice mage? Druid? Beast master? It literally has no identity. Same could be said for the Sorcerer. Is it a Lightning mage? Summoner? Daedric spell caster? At least classes like Dragon Knights and Night blades fit a theme. Fire/lava and Dragon magic or Darkness/Blood Magic. And at least some of the abilities synergize with each other.

So what do you think? Would you be willing to accept a update or change to your class? Leave a comment below.

Soarora

I don't think classes should be overhauled but I think the supposed "class sets" could be a great way to revamp them optionally by creating fuller niches. An even better way would be like gw2 where you have your base class and then choose a specialization, so that you aren't giving up precious gear spots but... if it works... hopefully it works...

Necrotech_Master

the only class that i think needs a significant overhaul is necromancer

warden could be improved for sure, but its still pretty good in some context such as a healer, where as necromancer has clunky skills, clunky mechanics, brings virtually nothing to the table in terms of group buffs (it can provide empower, which does nothing for an oakensoul or velothi build, and doesnt help most people since it doesnt provide any kind of buff to light attack anymore) (even its original "big benefit" was major vulnerability which is now generally provided by gear sets such as turning tide or archdruid)

necromancer is even lacking basic buffs in its class kit that literally every other class has such as major brutality/sorcery

Stamicka

Necromancer needs an overhaul. It's such a clunky class and it's too similar to Warden. The other classes just need some reworks.

TaSheen

I'm not sure. Every time something gets tweaked/"overhauled" there's stuff just goes wrong, never gets fixed....

CameraBeardThePirate

Stamicka wrote: »

Necromancer needs an overhaul. It's such a clunky class and it's too similar to Warden. The other classes just need some reworks.

This. A solid portion of necromancers abilities either don't function at all or aren't worth the bar slot.

The recent skulls buff was great, and the ability hits hard, but in PvP it still feels terrible to use because the projectile is far too slow and telegraphed. The ability also feels awful to light attack weave because each cast has a separate and distinct animation.

The tethers are awful outside of completely stationary fights (and even then, nearly every trial boss that's come out since Necro dropped has had issues with the tether hitboxes).

The Fear Totem is still bugged and doesn't fear until 4 seconds into the duration in most circumstances. Good job fixing this one in the "bug fix" patch. Outside of the bug, the ability is unusable as an offensive stun in PvP.

Empowering Grasp is a waste of mag. It's expensive, difficult to land, and only buffs your pets if you hit them - an extremely difficult task when your pets constantly move around as you move, and most often position themselves at the side or back of you. The empower on this ability is also worthless in PvP.

They lack both of the major offensive buffs in the game, one of which (sorcery/brutality) is mandatory in all content on all builds. They also lack an on demand stun (something every other class has) and any sort of mobility - no expedition, no gap closer, no snare removal. They don't need all of these tools, but the fact they don't have a single one of them is a joke.

Their pets cannot be commanded with the command pet keybind like normal pets can, and yet, they cannot proc any sets. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to proc sets when they function identically to non-pet abilities. Additionally, the skeletal mage and its morphs were butchered by 40% in U35, despite the fact that they don't actually count as DoTs, aren't buffed by Necro's passive, and can be blocked.

Necrotic Potency/Deaden Pain refresh the HoT duration even if the refresh is a shorter duration. This means you have to choose between continuing to heal yourself or sucking up a corpse for the ult. The ultimate generation is second to none, but having to give up a good HoT doesn't make the ability feel great to use when you need the HoT.

Graveyard was butchered despite all its power coming from the (now nerfed) harmony trait, making the ability to use your own synergy worthless. It should not have been nerfed alongside the harmony nerf, and especially not by how much it was.

Blastbones is the only saving grace, as it does an insane amount of damage, but it has its own fair share of issues as everyone should be aware of by now. The Animate Blastbones ultimate, arguably the most "necromancer" ability they have, is a wasted cast more often than not. Since you can't command your pets, the blastbones summoned from the ultimate will just fail to pick a target too often. Not a good look for the most expensive ultimate in the game.

Editing to be fair: Resistant Flesh is also a crazy good burst heal and probably the other saving grace.

Necro needs help, has needed help, and will continue to need help because ZOS has shown no indication of wanting to make any changes to the things that are actually wrong with the class.

emilyhyoyeon

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not sure. Every time something gets tweaked/"overhauled" there's stuff just goes wrong, never gets fixed....

Yep. We're still sitting on the minor brutality/sorcery and minor savagery/prophecy issue from back when hybridization first started a year and a half ago.

AllegedParadigm

If anything I'd like to see the other classes get treatment like arcanist. Skills cost whatever resource is higher. I think that would add a little more diversity.

Kalle_Demos

Be careful what you wish for. I remember when people were begging for Racial and Champion System overhauls. Look how well those turned out. I agree that changes should be made but for the sake of *waves hands at everything* we should stick to asking for specific tweaks. Lest we find ourselves suffering under the weight of more poorly aimed hammer blows.

IncultaWolf

Like everyone else seems to agree on, necromancer is the only class that really needs a complete rework/overhaul.

wilykcat

In some areas yes.. mostly for graphics like ability/spell animations, colors, textures, lighting, and other 3d special effects. To make them look more realistic and unique.

Also some of the abilities can use some rework. That I agree on.

Tandor

wilykcat wrote: »

In some areas yes.. mostly for graphics like ability/spell animations, colors, textures, lighting, and other 3d special effects. To make them look more realistic and unique.

I'd be in favour if that involved "downgrading" the Arcanists' ability/spell animations, colours, textures, lighting, and other 3d special effects, rather than "upgrading" those things for the other classes.

In other respects no, the game functions well as it is without constantly changing things for the sake of it.

Marto

Rampeal wrote: »

For example the Warden is a Mess. Almost none of the branching trees work with each other and the Identity of the class is left up to question of what it is? Is the Warden a Ice mage? Druid? Beast master? It literally has no identity.

You... literally just listed the Warden's identity. It's an ice-mage / druid. There's nothing disparate or odd about that. Tanky as you'd expect from an ice-themed class in a videogame, plenty of healing as you'd expect from a nature-themed class.

And yeah, Sorcerer is Lightning/Daedric magic. Nothing weird about that combination either. Both are fairly difficult magical techniques in the TES universe.

wilykcat

I see nothing wrong with a few brightly colored 3-d looking spells. Here is the spell/ability animations that Guild Wars 2 has for example. This is one of the mesmer class abilities: several abilities can be cast at the same time without cool-downs. Also there is a lot of detail with in the spell design and lots of colors, even some iridescence.


Note: Screenshot taken in March 2022.

Its not like a constant quick flashing effects like strobe lights. It has some colors, glow, sparkles, and 3d effects. There are graphics settings that can tone down the spell effects like particles, lighting, glow, and animation quality (if bright colors/effects are bothersome)

In my opinion I do agree that ESO needs better quality spell/ability animations and graphics as part of the class overhaul.

TaSheen

Marto wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

For example the Warden is a Mess. Almost none of the branching trees work with each other and the Identity of the class is left up to question of what it is? Is the Warden a Ice mage? Druid? Beast master? It literally has no identity.

You... literally just listed the Warden's identity. It's an ice-mage / druid. There's nothing disparate or odd about that. Tanky as you'd expect from an ice-themed class in a videogame, plenty of healing as you'd expect from a nature-themed class.

And yeah, Sorcerer is Lightning/Daedric magic. Nothing weird about that combination either. Both are fairly difficult magical techniques in the TES universe.

Uh. My wardens are NOT "ice mages". I've never enjoyed ice as a magic user in any game. My wardens are either 2 hand or DW stam users - and not very druid-like. I do have a few magdens, but they're just not much fun to play.

CameraBeardThePirate

TaSheen wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

For example the Warden is a Mess. Almost none of the branching trees work with each other and the Identity of the class is left up to question of what it is? Is the Warden a Ice mage? Druid? Beast master? It literally has no identity.

You... literally just listed the Warden's identity. It's an ice-mage / druid. There's nothing disparate or odd about that. Tanky as you'd expect from an ice-themed class in a videogame, plenty of healing as you'd expect from a nature-themed class.

And yeah, Sorcerer is Lightning/Daedric magic. Nothing weird about that combination either. Both are fairly difficult magical techniques in the TES universe.

Uh. My wardens are NOT "ice mages". I've never enjoyed ice as a magic user in any game. My wardens are either 2 hand or DW stam users - and not very druid-like. I do have a few magdens, but they're just not much fun to play.

Just because you're running dual wield or 2h doesn't mean you aren't playing a frost druid class... Your buffs and abilities are still frost/nature abilities.

Armor? Frost
Stun? Frost
Ultimate? Frost

Bird? Nature
Bear ulti? Nature
Netch? Nature
Beetles? Nature
Fetcherflies? Nature
Wings? Nature

Spores? Nature

All of those abilities would, could, or should be used on a stamina class still. Might not be a mage but still certainly a frost skinned druid.

KlauthWarthog

Necromancers do not need an overhaul, they need to be redesigned from scratch.

Rampeal

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

For example the Warden is a Mess. Almost none of the branching trees work with each other and the Identity of the class is left up to question of what it is? Is the Warden a Ice mage? Druid? Beast master? It literally has no identity.

You... literally just listed the Warden's identity. It's an ice-mage / druid. There's nothing disparate or odd about that. Tanky as you'd expect from an ice-themed class in a videogame, plenty of healing as you'd expect from a nature-themed class.

And yeah, Sorcerer is Lightning/Daedric magic. Nothing weird about that combination either. Both are fairly difficult magical techniques in the TES universe.

Uh. My wardens are NOT "ice mages". I've never enjoyed ice as a magic user in any game. My wardens are either 2 hand or DW stam users - and not very druid-like. I do have a few magdens, but they're just not much fun to play.

Just because you're running dual wield or 2h doesn't mean you aren't playing a frost druid class... Your buffs and abilities are still frost/nature abilities.

Armor? Frost
Stun? Frost
Ultimate? Frost

Bird? Nature
Bear ulti? Nature
Netch? Nature
Beetles? Nature
Fetcherflies? Nature
Wings? Nature

Spores? Nature

All of those abilities would, could, or should be used on a stamina class still. Might not be a mage but still certainly a frost skinned druid.

Well we saw True druids in High Isle and the Warden is not one of them. It is like they took a Ranger class and decided to give them some Ice mage abilities along with some minor Druid abilities. It really seems like they have no identity at all. Not to mention that Druids can shape shift.

And this isn't the first time ESO has done this. Where they pick apart classes in their lore and create a new one, because make no mistake that the Warden, Dragon Knight, and Templar did not exist as a class in prior lore or games. They just combined old classes to make them.
Hence why some like the Warden has a identity crisis.

Knight+Battle mage= Dragon Knight
Ranger+Druid= Warden
Crusader+Healer= Templar

If anything Sorcerer should have been the one to have a Fire, Ice, and lightning tree. Than they could have saved the pets for the Summoning class.

Rampeal

wilykcat wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with a few brightly colored 3-d looking spells. Here is the spell/ability animations that Guild Wars 2 has for example. This is one of the mesmer class abilities: several abilities can be cast at the same time without cool-downs. Also there is a lot of detail with in the spell design and lots of colors, even some iridescence.


Note: Screenshot taken in March 2022.

Its not like a constant quick flashing effects like strobe lights. It has some colors, glow, sparkles, and 3d effects. There are graphics settings that can tone down the spell effects like particles, lighting, glow, and animation quality (if bright colors/effects are bothersome)

In my opinion I do agree that ESO needs better quality spell/ability animations and graphics as part of the class overhaul.

I agree. You take games like FFXIV and the jobs are so fulfilling to play. I mean the Arcanist is a step in the right direction. It is visually stunning and fun to play with the combos Crux provide. Gives you insensitive to actually learn rotations and what skills synergize with each other. A lot better than just picking a class using over half your skills for buffs and just spamming one or two abilities *cough dizzying swing cough*.

IncultaWolf

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

Necromancers do not need an overhaul, they need to be redesigned from scratch.

I'll accept this too

merpins

Warden is a druid, and it makes sense... At least, two skill lines make sense. Beasts and plants are definitely druid-like. Ice on the other hand does not make sense with the theme of the class. You could argue that Winter is a time where plants and beasts disappear, and therefore the class is based on seasons. But then where are the other seasons? Really, ice should be separated into a new class or even just a new weapon skill line, but that would ruin half of what people like about Warden DPS. It's kinda stuck, and though I agree it should have a change, it might end up alienating a lot of people like the Templar change did.

TaSheen

merpins wrote: »

Warden is a druid, and it makes sense... At least, two skill lines make sense. Beasts and plants are definitely druid-like. Ice on the other hand does not make sense with the theme of the class. You could argue that Winter is a time where plants and beasts disappear, and therefore the class is based on seasons. But then where are the other seasons? Really, ice should be separated into a new class or even just a new weapon skill line, but that would ruin half of what people like about Warden DPS. It's kinda stuck, and though I agree it should have a change, it might end up alienating a lot of people like the Templar change did.

Agreed. The problem with "overhauls" (with ZOS) is that they never seem to really do what's needed....

ArchangelIsraphel

Sincerely,
An Angry Templar.

P.S.: Give Me My Jabs Back.

chessalavakia_ESO

I'd rather they didn't. I don't really like the design of the Necromancer or the Arcanist who are the last two classes they've made. I passed on getting the Arcanist after playing it on the PTS and my Necromancer has yet to have a build I enjoyed that used Necromancer skills. I think classes should be more about providing options with a bit of flavor rather than strongly pushing a specific path. I'd like for visuals to be generally grounded. In my view, both the Arcanist and Necromancer could probably fit in other games as well as they do in Tamriel. As a result, I don't have a lot of faith in updating/overhauling them as while it does have the potential to improve things it can also make them worse. I was not a fan of the frost changes to Warden for example.

Jazraena

I find it bizarre that people try to defend the Warden.

It consists of the following:
- Ice Magic
- Vvardenfell animals
- Mushrooms
- A scarce few trees / vines
- A random bear

What is this? It's not a TES druid. It's not a wyrd sister, not a Reach shaman, not a Telvanni mycomancer or an Ashlander shaman or somesuch. Not a spinner, not a full on elementalist, not... anything really. It's just a weird hodgepodge of unconnected themes, despite Tamriel having such a wide range of possible nature-themed casters, but none of them fit.

Urzigurumash

Mechanically Warden is the best class by far, it really has it all besides spammable skills which are abundant in weapon lines. Hence it's the most fun to play and the most versatile in PvP, imho.

Thematically, whether coherent or not, it's nicely opposed to the theme of DK. Fire and Ice, Geology and Flora/Fauna. I see NB as the only without a thematic opposite: DK and Warden, Necro and Templar, Sorc and Arcanist - and all of these pairs have a range of mechanically similar skills.

BenTSG

I personally think classes should just be removed entirely and let us pick skills from class lines we want, of course it'd only work if everything was balanced. Skills wouldn't even have to be 'better' then other similar skills, it could be that DKs armour skills be the exact same as Wardens armour, it'd just be flavour and theme for people. Maybe add only small differences as a bonus, like as an example Dks armour would give a small fire AoE, while Wardens is Ice, both doing the exact same damage and armour value as each other and scaling the same

Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing the classes get a sprucing or an overhaul, would be cool too if different classes would interact with different sets, buffs, skills and curses in their own unique way, but I'm not too sure I'd trust ZoS to do these things the right way or as people would want, so it's all pretty much a pipe dream. If it's not broke, don't 'fix' it

CameraBeardThePirate

Jazraena wrote: »

I find it bizarre that people try to defend the Warden.

It consists of the following:
- Ice Magic
- Vvardenfell animals
- Mushrooms
- A scarce few trees / vines
- A random bear

What is this? It's not a TES druid. It's not a wyrd sister, not a Reach shaman, not a Telvanni mycomancer or an Ashlander shaman or somesuch. Not a spinner, not a full on elementalist, not... anything really. It's just a weird hodgepodge of unconnected themes, despite Tamriel having such a wide range of possible nature-themed casters, but none of them fit.

Why are you separating out the animals, mushrooms, and trees? That's all nature. Warden is a frost/nature themed class, just like DK is fire/poison, and sorc is lightning/daedra. It's not that hard to understand.

Fenris_Arainai

Don't they constantly update classes due to "balance" (especially for PvP needs)?

And mind you, they overhauled Vampire. Not a class, I know, but doing that to a class would mean doing that to its skill lines...
Are you sure you want that?

Rampeal

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I find it bizarre that people try to defend the Warden.

It consists of the following:
- Ice Magic
- Vvardenfell animals
- Mushrooms
- A scarce few trees / vines
- A random bear

What is this? It's not a TES druid. It's not a wyrd sister, not a Reach shaman, not a Telvanni mycomancer or an Ashlander shaman or somesuch. Not a spinner, not a full on elementalist, not... anything really. It's just a weird hodgepodge of unconnected themes, despite Tamriel having such a wide range of possible nature-themed casters, but none of them fit.

Why are you separating out the animals, mushrooms, and trees? That's all nature. Warden is a frost/nature themed class, just like DK is fire/poison, and sorc is lightning/daedra. It's not that hard to understand.

Well, not so much. Nature is a broad term that involves anything in the natural world. Snow, Ice, Water, Lightning, Fire, Earth , Plants, Animals, and Humans are all considered part of nature. So technically every class can be considered a Nature class.

But each class has it's theme. Dragon Knights are about Dragons. And Dragons in lore control all sorts of abilities including lightning, Ice, Fire and Poison. But in the end it is about all Dragon abilities.

Sorcerer is confusing to be honest. I can see the summoning of daedra and atronachs, that is all well and good. It makes sense for it to be a daedra class, but lightning makes absolutely no sense. I mean lightning is considered to be of the natural world and falls more under Kyne's domain rather than daedra. Infact all spells not associated with daedra come from Magnus which is a Aedra. Including the Staff skill line.

It just seems to come out of left field. Would have been better if they made a Atronachs line, Daedra line, and Oblivion magic line. It would have been better themed.

Rampeal

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Mechanically Warden is the best class by far, it really has it all besides spammable skills which are abundant in weapon lines. Hence it's the most fun to play and the most versatile in PvP, imho.

Thematically, whether coherent or not, it's nicely opposed to the theme of DK. Fire and Ice, Geology and Flora/Fauna. I see NB as the only without a thematic opposite: DK and Warden, Necro and Templar, Sorc and Arcanist - and all of these pairs have a range of mechanically similar skills.

Are you really a warden though when only 20% of your skills are warden abilities and the rest are weapon/world skills?