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1.0.7 ruined the vampire PVE dynamic.
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concobar✭✭✭haha vampwhiners
nice change.. thx for nerfing it now talons plz 
That would *** off about half the people in PvP.
I will still look across the lands from my perch at Arrius, Nerf or no I will still be the Night. I may not be the hero Ebonheart Pact wanted but I will be the hero Ebonheart pact deserves.0 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »
Wrong. The biggest problem was that people could drop 5 bat swarms at a time and do 1000 dmg a second to groups of fifty players while healing for the same amount. That has been fixed by removing the stacking and raising the cost of vampire abilities.
I'm super happy with the patch. Vampires were, and still are, super powerful.1 -
Minnus✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »On top of that there is no free respec out of vampire line provided and there is no refund for the time, gold and mats spend for specific gear (fire resistance).
Is this your first MMO? One can argue the necessity of various changes, but at the end of the day, it is silly to believe that ANY of your skills, builds, etc - will remain static and untouched forever - or that you should be compensated for these changes. This is FAR from a good 'execution', but it is not unique to ESO. Once the nerf hammer slams - time to revisit your play style.
Also...it was painfully obvious that the advantages outweighed the negatives, and so much so that it was widely adopted and sought after. That itself is an indicator that something was not balanced.Edited by Minnus on May 6, 2014 6:23PM0 -
As someone who saw first hand an emperor vampire kill an entire keep defence I can only agree that it needed a nerf.
Regarding compensation: I do not believe anyone that lost gear due to the bank bug or due to the rapid gear decay bug received a compensation. So why would you?
Also, regarding the fire resistance draw back: Why do you think there were so many Dunmer vampires? Anyone?
I agree that this could have possibly handled better, but have any of you actually tried the nerf out to see how much it breaks your build? Also, if you character build dependent on a broken mechanic, you surely had it coming.0 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »malikwalker_ESO wrote: »ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »malikwalker_ESO wrote: »rangerluna375 wrote: »Anytime they make a major change, they should offer up a free respec.
For core class skill lines and the like sure, but for skill lines you have to go out and acquire(Undaunted, werewolf, vampire, etc), not so much.
For EVERY skill line. You went out and acuired it when it was working under some condtions. If they change those why should you be penalised for liking the previous version?
If it is a totally optional skill line you will never see unless you go looking for it? Yes.
And the three skill lines i listed have zero bearing on your progress in the game. They are totally optional and should be treated as 'as is' in terms of spending points into them. No one makes you join the Undaunted or makes you get lycanthropy or vampirism.
Agreed it IS OPTIONAL. When you decide to use it as every other non idiot you go to esohead and check what it gives and what are the drawbacks.
Now I went for it when it was in some state. And made my build including it - like very low on magica as the abilities had heavy reduction, but in exchange I had to give up enchantment slots for fire res.
Now they changed it so my build is no longer viable and I have to make another build. Why should I pay for that? Is it my fault they made such a drastic change when the game is officialy released? I am not expecting such changes in game that is not in a beta or even alpha! Bug fixes, slight number fixes (IE generic passive A that gives 30/50/70% per point is now 20/40/60%) are expected but that is 70% reduction off the power of a passive. IT IS A BIG change that changes entire builds!
I'm not saying its all rainbows and sunshine good that ZOS made the changes to the degree that they did, but who made you make the build you made? Was that ZOS?
No. You rolled the dice and for a while you were coming up sevens and it was all good.
Now you are coming up snake eyes, but that doesn't change the fact that You decided to make a build based on a single optional skill line that ZOS could change at any time.
And yes, i can empathize a bit because i made my main a vampire as well. But i am fine with the changes as they are because i knew something was gonna have to give in time, as i have seen how vampirism has been handled in other TES games.
Now this last bit isn't aimed at the poster i quoted, but a more general statement: If you can't roll with the possibility of ZOS swooping in at any given time and changing things how the see fit-quit now and cancel your account. Because this is how it goes with MMOs.0 -
ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »On top of that there is no free respec out of vampire line provided and there is no refund for the time, gold and mats spend for specific gear (fire resistance).
Is this your first MMO? One can argue the necessity of various changes, but at the end of the day, it is silly to believe that ANY of your skills, builds, etc - will remain static and untouched forever - or that you should be compensated for these changes. This is FAR from a good 'execution', but it is not unique to ESO. Once the nerf hammer slams - time to revisit your play style.
Also...most people didn't choose to become a vampire. It was painfully obvious that the advantages outweighed the negatives, and so much so that it was widely adopted and sought after. That itself is an indicator that something was not balanced.
Not my first MMO. But in WoW after each major change to the passives there was respec. That's a major change so it should garant a respec.
I am not sure why would you say "most people" as you do not have any evidence. I can speak only for myself and can tell you (as I stated before and in other threads) that I planned my build prior the release with 0 beta experience.
What I planned -> Vamp DK Tank (ie Sword and Board) with second weapon swap DW.
The idea was to rely on drain and green dragon blood for health regen (this negates the reduction) and to stack some fire res to negate the 50% more damage. This as a tank leaves you with the nice bonus of reduced damage under certain % hp and you still take 50% more than other people but it's managable.
Get magica regen just enough so you can get enough for dragon blood again in 10-20 seconds and another drain or two and you're fine...
Now I must be doing something very bad as my DPS is only around 330 according to recount and I die easy if more than 5 mobs jump on me but still I liked the build...
I spend about 10 days trying to get a bite so I can do this.
So this was just changed entirely with this nerf as the cost of the abilities is now too high for me to manage and I either have to do drastic changes to my gear or to my build.
Is it my fault the skill line was introduced as-is and they decided to do a major change on it? NOPE.
I do not want them to not do balances and fixes (they currently only did a major nerf instead of fix as it's easier), but when they do major changes they must give free respec to those affected. And to not come back to this - optional lines are there to give you more diversity and are and must be on the same level as the class skill lines.
But if you still can't understand I hope they nerf to the ground all of the abilities you use and I'll come and tell you "sorry you can pay yourself for respecing nobody made you pick those skills".
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AlliN✭✭✭suffer a 75% reduction in health regen
HP regen is one of the most, if not THE most meaningless stats in the game. Using that as a drawback, when you get ANY dps buff is ridiculous on it's own. If you gain WHOLE skill line becasue losing a meaningless stat, and later you talk about downsides...
seriously, get real.1 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭Not to mention it's offset by what is still a powerful and cheap drain. It's just not as cheap as it was. As a magicka build it suits me just fine still.0
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Hrm, well I guess it all boils down to this, turn to the vampire on your left, turn to the one on your right, one of these vampires is responsible for abusing the skill tree with exploits and utlimately getting your Kin nerf'd, its a known fact that someone would rather cut away the disease then try to "understand" it. Just adjust and move along.0
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Morbus2✭✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »"Snip"
Not really, you must be 3 years old if you can't comprehend the simple statement that if you brake something you must pay for fixing it.
this ^
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »"Snip"
Not really, you must be 3 years old if you can't comprehend the simple statement that if you brake something you must pay for fixing it.
this ^
Well, the Vampire players broke PvP and now they're having to pay... seems reasonable enough to me.0 -
starkerealm wrote: »ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »"Snip"
Not really, you must be 3 years old if you can't comprehend the simple statement that if you brake something you must pay for fixing it.
this ^
Well, the Vampire players broke PvP and now they're having to pay... seems reasonable enough to me.
NOT EVERY VAMPIRE PLAYER.
Let me rephrase you for after few similar patches
"Class X BROKE PVP NERF THEM TO OBLIVION".
Ban the few abusers, let the others have their way? Give them free spec out..0 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭Once something gets nerfed because of pvp expect it will break the pve. Zos didnt know this and got blinded by scrubs intense whines0
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The golden rule when trying to balance pve and pvp : NEVER nerf/buff the numbers, but rather, rework/tweak the skill effects to what suits the need for both pve and pvp. I cant believe Im saying this but I am missing Ghostcrawler with his ultra detailed explanations.0 -
shiva7663✭✭✭Now that the vampsters have been taken care of, the next step is to see what the new flavor of the month build turns out to be, then file the sharp edges off that build too. Lather, rinse, repeat, until better play balance is achieved.0 -
Now that the vampsters have been taken care of, the next step is to see what the new flavor of the month build turns out to be, then file the sharp edges off that build too. Lather, rinse, repeat, until better play balance is achieved.
Basically, we wont stop until all classes/builds have gap closer, stun, buffing capability, debuff capability, DoT, HoT, oh-*** buttons, self-heal, immunity, and AoE heal/damage. Is there anything I miss?0 -
Mephiston87✭✭You's get a whole new decent skill line with one penalty or fire damage increase and you all cry? it needed to change. WW and Vamp lines are NOT meant to be benefits at all, they'r meant to be trade offs. Getting bitten isnt meant to make your character stronger then those who don't get bitten, its meant to allow those who want even more customization to do so at a cost. At the moment the WW and vamp tree's are still more beneficial then they are a negative.1 -
Tiitus✭✭✭✭malikwalker_ESO wrote: »@the OP, just want to clear up one thing: Vampirism isn't a class. Its a skill line in TESO. I really think that mindset more than anything is why they rushed some vampire changes through and why i don't think they are done yet.
Another thing, i think that changes in the Vampirism skill line in TESO are being done to bring it back in line with how it was portrayed in other TES games-as a curse with some benefits but quite a few downsides. I've had access to the vampire skill line since official launch day and i have actually been waiting on these changes to hit.
Totally agree with it. @AlienDiplomat, you're speaking as if it was your entire class. But no sir, it's just a "bonus" skill line which needs to get in line with other skill lines.
vamp may be "just" a skill but the debuff/buffs that come with it is a class making decision, so much so that drain essence and the passives are essential to your gameplay style, where i come from thats considered a class.
one last thing isnt this whole game is "just" made up of skill lines? does spec'ing into dual wield not make me a dual wield dps?
i could completely ignore my "class" specific "skill" lines and be perfectly viable.
the "holy trinity" is tank,healer, and dps in eso your class is whatever skill line you build your char around.
Edited by Tiitus on May 7, 2014 5:10AM1 -
Bangstin✭✭✭vamp may be "just" a skill but the debuff/buffs that come with it is a class making decision, so much so that drain essence and the passives are essential to your gameplay style, where i come from thats considered a class.
Maybe the game designers didn't know where you come from and so can't balance a multiplayer game around your personal preferences.
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Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...Edited by Phinix1 on May 7, 2014 5:03AM1 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...
This is a good idea. But apparently everyone loves the 28%. Even though those who play vamp will say it isnt enough0 -
Zarec✭✭✭blackwolf7 wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...
This is a good idea. But apparently everyone loves the 28%. Even though those who play vamp will say it isnt enough
Funny thing is people can still spam bat swarm as it really didn't touch the cost that much nor fix the underlying issue which was ulti cost reduction. But as we have seen even during beta, ZOS doesn't make sound judgements when it comes to issues in this game.1 -
Tiitus✭✭✭✭
how is this comment even relevant to my post, they designed the game the way it is, i didnt ask for anything nor do i remember giving a personal preference. i gave feedback and opinion on the subject above about it being just a skill line.vamp may be "just" a skill but the debuff/buffs that come with it is a class making decision, so much so that drain essence and the passives are essential to your gameplay style, where i come from thats considered a class.
Maybe the game designers didn't know where you come from and so can't balance a multiplayer game around your personal preferences.
it is ZoS's job to balance what they have already made and what they have made is a skill line that is a class making decision.
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blackwolf7✭✭✭blackwolf7 wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...
This is a good idea. But apparently everyone loves the 28%. Even though those who play vamp will say it isnt enough
Funny thing is people can still spam bat swarm as it really didn't touch the cost that much nor fix the underlying issue which was ulti cost reduction. But as we have seen even during beta, ZOS doesn't make sound judgements when it comes to issues in this game.
In pvp it doesnt in pve it does. Atm the bugged passive reduction makes it reset to 170cost in pve eberytime you zone or die or relog.
In pvp, you seldom rezone relog so it doesnt go back to 1700 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Vampire skill line itself was never the problem. It was the tool being used by people exploiting a broken system.
That system is the stacking of ultimate cost reduction.
If a hard cap was placed on just how much cost could be reduced - across all skill combinations game wide. It would've fixed the problem.
Or like the original poster stated, creating PvE problems trying to fix something that was mainly prevalent in PvP could've been avoided.
Don't be that guy, ZOS, don't be that guy.
Capping cost reduction at a max of -50% across the board instead of allowing the ridiculous combinations like Sword n Board Bashhammer spec'd DK bobo's who oil vat'd and tower spam'd their way to Emperor and can run around spamming Devouring Swarm back to back for 2 Ultimate (obvious exaggeration but you get my point)
What you fixed was a symptom and not the underlying problem.
You've effectively put a Band-Aid on cancer.Edited by WraithAzraiel on May 7, 2014 5:37AMShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
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blackwolf7✭✭✭Typical in all mmos. They are soooo lazy in fixing the issue that occurs only in pvp and find easy solutions that will affect pve1
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Zarec✭✭✭blackwolf7 wrote: »blackwolf7 wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...
This is a good idea. But apparently everyone loves the 28%. Even though those who play vamp will say it isnt enough
Funny thing is people can still spam bat swarm as it really didn't touch the cost that much nor fix the underlying issue which was ulti cost reduction. But as we have seen even during beta, ZOS doesn't make sound judgements when it comes to issues in this game.
In pvp it doesnt in pve it does. Atm the bugged passive reduction makes it reset to 170cost in pve eberytime you zone or die or relog.
In pvp, you seldom rezone relog so it doesnt go back to 170
I have to ask...when did people ever really spam bat swarm in PVE? I can think of better ults to use than spamming that, speaking from a sorc perspective. I personally prefer overload as I like zapping things from a distance not have them up in my grill so that vet level mudcrab or spider or whatever can *** all over me in my clothy goodness.0 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭blackwolf7 wrote: »blackwolf7 wrote: »AlienDiplomat wrote: »I still think the nerf to magic cost reduction for vampire abilities was a bit steep.
10%, 20%, and 30% for stage 2, 3, and 4 respectively would have been more than sufficient.
Better still, 13%, 26%, and 39%, and cap the Ultimate cost reduction at 50%.
As for the suggestions some have made to have vampires attacked by NPC's on site, that would obviously make little sense given their illusionist magical nature, however, it would be interesting if you were allowed to feed on (but not attack/kill) NPC characters...
This is a good idea. But apparently everyone loves the 28%. Even though those who play vamp will say it isnt enough
Funny thing is people can still spam bat swarm as it really didn't touch the cost that much nor fix the underlying issue which was ulti cost reduction. But as we have seen even during beta, ZOS doesn't make sound judgements when it comes to issues in this game.
In pvp it doesnt in pve it does. Atm the bugged passive reduction makes it reset to 170cost in pve eberytime you zone or die or relog.
In pvp, you seldom rezone relog so it doesnt go back to 170
I have to ask...when did people ever really spam bat swarm in PVE? I can think of better ults to use than spamming that, speaking from a sorc perspective. I personally prefer overload as I like zapping things from a distance not have them up in my grill so that vet level mudcrab or spider or whatever can *** all over me in my clothy goodness.
I enjoy playing melee in pve as being range makes it easy mode to faceroll everything. Not sure in sorcs pt view but with my nightblade i prefer to get close and personal. Bat swarm would increase my survivability and my aoe capability. But with the current passive bug, it makes it not wortg it0