ZOS Stop Making the mistakes of the past

Zarec · May 2014

Warning: Long read

ZOS

(community don't lynch me for this comment but...) You came in like a wrecking ball (you know you sang that as you read it) but unfortunately, the mortar was just too thick to make a dent in that wall you boasted you could break down. You have continued to make mistakes that other companies have made. You have (from many gamers perspectives) mislead, done the complete opposite, or downright lied to many gamers who have purchased this game. This was the down fall of SOE (anyone still remember SWG...all I have to say is NGE) as that company has not had a successful mmo style game since 2006 for reasons stated above.

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 was riddled with bugs upon going live and their developers could not get them fixed in a timely manner causing a massive exodus of players who were disgusted with broken promises, unplayable characters, and continuous downtime. You seem to be making the same mistakes that they made.

While I applaud the huge undertaking you have put upon your shoulders, what I can not give you props for is the continued broken skill lines, blocked quest progression, consecutive downtimes, and continued lying to your playerbase.

Broken class skills and broken optional skill lines should have never made it to live. You should only see those when the game is in beta or when a new expansion is coming out and in testing and should be first priority as right out the door as that class if it does not work....the players experience just took a major hit. You nerf before fixing skills lines (both WW, which doesn't work most the time already, and vampire skill lines have been nerfed and both have major borked skills). I have to wonder...are you truly trying to destroy the game right out the door or are your quality controls so sub par that they did not catch these even after numerous bug reports in beta on these same issues?

You nerfed vampire but did not fix the underlying issue which is ult reduction. Vampires can still spam their ult (while not really the issue) and instead of instituting a cap or having the highest reduction cost take precedence over lesser amounts, you nerf the stage reduction cost breaking other skills in the process and making one completely useless due to the amount of magicka it would take to use it.

Another issue that most MMO companies fall prey to is balancing PVP and having it affect PVE. NEVER balance one and have it affect the other as you effect EVERYONE rather than a select group. I have to ask, is your development team so incompetent that they are unable to balance one without messing with the other? Maybe you should look at headhunting some developers from GW2 if you need the help as they at least know how to do that.

First impressions are everything as I know many players that avoided playing SWtor for a year due to players reviews and their friends telling them to not play it due to many of the same issues. Yes SWtor finally made a turn around for the most part, but PR is everything and EA is a very well known (infamous in a way) company. ZOS, not so much so due to your limited resume when it comes to games like this. You have already started negatively out the gate and burned quite a few bridges. I cannot sit by and waste my money on a game that leaves me more feeling helpless than actual enjoyment. I just hope in future updates you can quickly fix these issues and take pages out of other companies DO's and DON'Ts books as you seem to be following in the steps that have hailed the downfall of many games of this type.

To the community,
What are your views on the points that I have touched on? Do you feel you have been lied to or mislead? Do you feel that you should have a wait and see approach?

Ragnar_Lodbrok · May 2014

For one, FFXIV didnt fail to bugs, it failed by being a bad game. Second if you pvpers didnt cry nerfs would be balanced around pve as they should be. Third, you go on like you know what their development plan/guidelines/style is. It is their game, their vision. ANot everyone can see eye to eye but most I would say are happy.

Zarec · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

For one, FFXIV didnt fail to bugs, it failed by being a bad game. Second if you pvpers didnt cry nerfs would be balanced around pve as they should be. Third, you go on like you know what their development plan/guidelines/style is. It is their game, their vision. ANot everyone can see eye to eye but most I would say are happy.

I personally abhor pvp due to it reminding me of kindergartners being let out to recess (eveyone running in different directions, screaming, not working as a cohesive unit, lack of communication). Rarely do I see groups actually working as a coordinated unit (funny thing is it is usually avid pvper's who can manage to do so and usually have a military background as they know how to work together and accomplish goals in small groups).

In their letters to the community, they have expressed their development plan/guidelines/style and have in some cases done the complete opposite than what they have said.

another thing to note....unless you can read very quickly, I get the impression based on the time I posted this and your ability to respond as quickly, you skimmed and did not read.

Blackwidow · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

To the community,
What are your views on the points that I have touched on? Do you feel you have been lied to or mislead? Do you feel that you should have a wait and see approach?

There are so many things ZOS has done wrong or just badly, it seems as though they never seen an MMO before.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · May 2014

I can power read, which I oft do when I see a wall of text. None the less I got what you were saying. All I can say is the best laid plans never survive the first shot.

Vartra · May 2014

I'm most concerned personally about the rush to promise Craglorn and more content, expand the hotly debated Veteran Ranks two more levels and add another "mode" of play with Trials all whilst trickling out largely ineffective bugfixes. I know there are separate teams working on each here, but it stands to reason that fixing the myriad of broken skills, inaccurate tooltips, mechanical oddities and calculation errors that exist currently would be the number one priority before adding more content on top of it.

I feel like doing band-aid fixes like an unwieldy global boss loot timer and toying with vampire stages (among others) are just going to produce more cracks in the foundation and cause even more issues once Craglorn gets dropped on top of it. Leaving aside my occasional vocal (but hopefully coherent) criticism of some decisions in the patchnotes, the more cracks you leave in that foundation the more headaches it will cause for the players, GMs, community reps and yourselves as developers going forward.

Zarec · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

I can power read, which I oft do when I see a wall of text. None the less I got what you were saying. All I can say is the best laid plans never survive the first shot.

I have to agree. ZOS had a very bold mission statement and I as a gamer feel they fell short of meeting it. The hype that was built for this game, I feel left many a player feeling let down when they actually were able to get their hands on it. I have many people I play SWtor within my guild of close to 300 that refuse to play this game due to not only player reviews but what they saw and reported in beta but were never fixed. That makes me sad but I honestly agree with many of their points. ZOS has, it seems in my opinion, fallen prey to many decisions that have plagued other game companies.

Zarec · May 2014

Vartra wrote: »

I'm most concerned personally about the rush to promise Craglorn and more content, expand the hotly debated Veteran Ranks two more levels and add another "mode" of play with Trials all whilst trickling out largely ineffective bugfixes. I know there are separate teams working on each here, but it stands to reason that fixing the myriad of broken skills, inaccurate tooltips, mechanical oddities and calculation errors that exist currently would be the number one priority before adding more content on top of it.

I feel like doing band-aid fixes like an unwieldy global boss loot timer and toying with vampire stages (among others) are just going to produce more cracks in the foundation and cause even more issues once Craglorn gets dropped on top of it. Leaving aside my occasional vocal (but hopefully coherent) criticism of some decisions in the patchnotes, the more cracks you leave in that foundation the more headaches it will cause for the players, GMs, community reps and yourselves as developers going forward.

You crack the foundation and eventually it will come tumbling down, I believe we are starting to see examples of this with after each patch the lag is near unplayable for several hours after the game comes back up. Not only the lag but as you pointed out the largely ineffective patches as many times they have tried to fix something in a patch and it has continued to be broken.

Blackwidow · May 2014

ZOS at work.

The candy are bugs and the conveyor belt is new content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqZ3beldXY

Ryvyr · May 2014

In any patch notes, some details are incredibly ambiguous for what is effect and what degree. I've a theory why and it relates to taking the path of least resistance when people might otherwise immediately call horse excrement on the spot, but I digress.

ZOE Marketing is, if many sources are accurate, vastly if completely responsible for why basic mounts cost 17,000 gold but Imperial Edition only cost $20 more than standard.

(In the last BETA, Imperial Mounts were enabled for everyone and disabled for all except who purchased the respective edition.)

The above also can be tied to why the developers are ridiculously understaffed, and why these bugs persist, and why asinine measures are taken over smaller issues (like class balance and Vampires, etc.).

Blame the Human Condition I suppose, the repugnant, reprehensible thing it can be sometimes >.>;

Elusive Mist was rarely used in combat and actually on a different bar usually, but it was great for RP in several RP guilds and settings. Now it's shriveled in RP utility, aside what seems overkill on lazy/time-constrained attempts at balancing. I doubt foresight was applied to many things as necessary, considering ZOE Marketing's hand in it all.

I'm in at least a couple guilds of excellent comrades as I see them, and we collectively to be optimistic honestly, giving the benefit of doubt and such.

The recent austerity has crossed lines for some members though, and it's not improving yet.

Marketing team if you see this at all, perhaps let the developers run a game, yes?

neocomab16_ESO · May 2014

Mistakes are already made, mate. When they annoucned the launch date they admitted the fact that the game will ship with a crap load of bugs, glitches, dupes.

I wasnt partaking in the beta and I believe only a small portion of testers actually tested but I believe that those who did test also posted bugs. Things were known, yet they shipped. And it happens all the time with MMOs these years.

And develpers still dont learn from the mistakes made by others. It is commonly known that nowadays, if you ship an MMO it HAS to work properly. No gold dupes, no combat stuck bugs, no quest bugs, it HAS to run smoothly. Because the first month is important. Not only important but crucial. Last game that pooped on this fact was SWTOR and they went f2p. Granted, they do okay now but they are far away from expectations.

And Teso did the same thing. Spend a crapload of money on voice acting but ignore gameplay. Yet, gameplay is the most important thing in an MMO. Nobody, when hitting endgame cares for how well written and voiced the quests are. Oh wait, there is no endgame.

Anyway, they knew what they were getting for shipping now. And if they didnt, boy were they naive and blind. In all honesty and without a bachelor in economics I claim that I still know that this is not the way to go. They will have hell on earth once subs will drop. Investors will go crazy and the management will see heads roll.

Whatever, I like the fact that some of you still clinch the game. The fanboy blindness is strong. Good for ZO because they will have some subs left. But I believe that those who are used to MMOs will leave. And that's about it.

I called f2p on SWTOR and I was right. I call f2p on TESO, and I will be right again. Just a matter of time and the amount of fanboys around here.

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO · May 2014

Ryvyr wrote: »

Blame the Human Condition I suppose

Blame bad management.

Lack of insight, experience and direction. It really is that simple.

Zarec · May 2014

neocomab16_ESO wrote: »

I wasnt partaking in the beta and I believe only a small portion of testers actually tested but I believe that those who did test also posted bugs. Things were known, yet they shipped. And it happens all the time with MMOs these years.

And develpers still dont learn from the mistakes made by others. It is commonly known that nowadays, if you ship an MMO it HAS to work properly. No gold dupes, no combat stuck bugs, no quest bugs, it HAS to run smoothly. Because the first month is important. Not only important but crucial. Last game that pooped on this fact was SWTOR and they went f2p. Granted, they do okay now but they are far away from expectations.

I was one of them that partook in the beta and gave away beta keys to people in my guild in SWtor as well as several members that got their own beta keys and gave them away to people in the guild. Overall, I believe there was about 50 of us that beta tested the game at any given point and I am the only one that actually bought and played the game. 1 out of 50. That is not a good ratio unless you're talking gears.

The reason SWtor was able to make a turn around with the F2P option was due to backing from EA. ZOE does not have a giant gaming company at it's back to make that type of commitment nor game changes with few hitches. If they implement a f2p option I can already see a lot of problems just from their first month as they didn't even manage to get rid of the duping issue that was reported by many players in beta.

neocomab16_ESO · May 2014

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

Ryvyr wrote: »

Blame the Human Condition I suppose

Blame bad management.

Lack of insight, experience and direction. It really is that simple.

Come on. How can you lack experience. I mean, you have theoretically experienced it and second hand also by playing MMOs. I mean, there's plenty of us around who can say that some things are better handled differently. You dont need to develop an MMO to do that. We have 10 years of experience for that. We know at least roughly what works and what doesnt.

Ryvyr · May 2014

If one observes the root of conflict, by definition would be when something does not agree with another in any format.

Expand that to an entire community, rife with trolls, exploiters en mass, gold spammers (their living conditions not exactly the best in reality), elitists, casuals, RPers, PvPers, white knights for anything ever, naysayers for anything ever, and the minority of those trying to take all in stride and cooperate with others.

That latter, most transparent group, I think, feel the most aggravation when everyone else isn't trying to cooperate as well, use self-moderation and so on.

That is why I referred to the Human Condition.

Developers are severely understaffed, which ultimately increases the longevity of these issues; however from an economic perspective, so long as a select few can bail with money at the end, then it's just as well.

"Tumultuous Antipathy" is how I feel sometimes.

Zarec · May 2014

Ryvyr wrote: »

If one observes the root of conflict, by definition would be when something does not agree with another in any format.

Expand that to an entire community, rife with trolls, exploiters en mass, gold spammers (their living conditions not exactly the best in reality), elitists, casuals, RPers, PvPers, white knights for anything ever, naysayers for anything ever, and the minority of those trying to take all in stride and cooperate with others.

That latter, most transparent group, I think, feel the most aggravation when everyone else isn't trying to cooperate as well, use self-moderation and so on.

That is why I referred to the Human Condition.

Developers are severely understaffed, which ultimately increases the longevity of these issues; however from an economic perspective, so long as a select few can bail with money at the end, then it's just as well.

"Tumultuous Antipathy" is how I feel sometimes.

You sound a lot like my old psych prof from a few years ago.

JKorr · May 2014

"I give Zenimax my money every month, I demand content every month or I cancel my sub."

"If they don't produce content every month, I'm gone."

"They want my money, they roll out new content for pve/pvp/groups/whatever favorite aspect when they said they would, or I walk and so do my friends."

Gosh golly gee. Why on earth would getting new content out be a priority? How many posts were there about "no endgame", "nothing to do after you max level", "where is the content for groups"? There were people saying if Zenimax didn't produce new content every 4 weeks, they'd cancel their sub until new content came out, even if they released it every 5 weeks on schedule. How many posts said "I don't care about the bugs, what about endgame content?"

They need to up their CS support, patch bugs to let people play the content that is out already, and work on getting rid of more bots and gold sellers on a permanent basis before they worry about getting new content out. It will be a toss-up whether they lose more subscribers because of the bugs, bots, cs issues, or more of the "I skip all the dialogue and don't bother with the story because I want end-game content" people.

Zarec · May 2014

JKorr wrote: »

"I give Zenimax my money every month, I demand content every month or I cancel my sub."

"If they don't produce content every month, I'm gone."

"They want my money, they roll out new content for pve/pvp/groups/whatever favorite aspect when they said they would, or I walk and so do my friends."

Gosh golly gee. Why on earth would getting new content out be a priority? How many posts were there about "no endgame", "nothing to do after you max level", "where is the content for groups"? There were people saying if Zenimax didn't produce new content every 4 weeks, they'd cancel their sub until new content came out, even if they released it every 5 weeks on schedule. How many posts said "I don't care about the bugs, what about endgame content?"

They need to up their CS support, patch bugs to let people play the content that is out already, and work on getting rid of more bots and gold sellers on a permanent basis before they worry about getting new content out. It will be a toss-up whether they lose more subscribers because of the bugs, bots, cs issues, or more of the "I skip all the dialogue and don't bother with the story because I want end-game content" people.

I'm confused on who you're actually responding to. If you're responding to me, your post doesn't fit what I posted so I can only assume you didn't read what my original post said as I said nothing about wanting new content. What I said in my post...well just read it as your post seems to make very little sense in regard to what my original post was about.

Vartra · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

I'm confused on who you're actually responding to.

I believe the quote was in partial response to posts by you and I both, emphasizing that certain elements of the wider MMO audience threaten to cancel their sub over perceived lack of content. I would say equal amounts if not more have threatened to quit or already have done so in response to the bugs, support responses not being up to their standards, etc. Quite frankly it seems like every time any issue arises, some vocal group threatens to quit if it isn't solved yesterday.

Pushing new content while leaving existing content, mechanics and balance in varying states of disrepair is developing for the business model, not for the player. The same people saying they'll quit if they don't get enough new content every few weeks will quit regardless, so appeasing them is unlikely to retain more players and customers than hammering out all the bugs. Not having new content six weeks after launch isn't what's dissuading people from buying the game and trying it; the amount of negative reviews citing bugs, bugs and more bugs however is certainly doing just that. Thus, to try and keep one group happy you're harming two others.

Osi · May 2014

Vartra wrote: »

I'm most concerned personally about the rush to promise Craglorn and more content, expand the hotly debated Veteran Ranks two more levels and add another "mode" of play with Trials all whilst trickling out largely ineffective bugfixes. I know there are separate teams working on each here, but it stands to reason that fixing the myriad of broken skills, inaccurate tooltips, mechanical oddities and calculation errors that exist currently would be the number one priority before adding more content on top of it.

I feel like doing band-aid fixes like an unwieldy global boss loot timer and toying with vampire stages (among others) are just going to produce more cracks in the foundation and cause even more issues once Craglorn gets dropped on top of it. Leaving aside my occasional vocal (but hopefully coherent) criticism of some decisions in the patchnotes, the more cracks you leave in that foundation the more headaches it will cause for the players, GMs, community reps and yourselves as developers going forward.

Most of the content of Craglorn was fleshed out prior to release. If anything resources have been diverted to deal with bugs I imagine.

Note that patch 1.1 comes with Craglorn, and with it a very large list of bug fixes if you haven't seen it already. Probably the sum total and more of all the bug fixes the patches up to now contained. Patience...

Evergnar · May 2014

Have to agree on one point and that is vagueness of Zos. I'll call it vagueness rather than lying. Haven't been real straight forward with the community so far. I'm not saying its intentional but in a way it doesn't matter because the result is the same.

Vartra · May 2014

Osi wrote: »

Note that patch 1.1 comes with Craglorn, and with it a very large list of bug fixes if you haven't seen it already. Probably the sum total and more of all the bug fixes the patches up to now contained. Patience...

I will absolutely hold my tongue if 1.1.x along with Craglorn fixes even half of the long standing and in some cases extremely frustrating issues present right now. I'm glad to see any and all fixes (badly implemented lockout timers notwithstanding, ahem) but the seeming lack of attention given to the myriad of outright broken morphs and passives is grating to say the least.

I do sincerely hope Craglorn and its patch are a holy grail of fixes that everyone has been asking for, but frankly despite my enjoyment of the game I'm not expecting it. Their methodology in dealing with high priority issues thus far hasn't left me exceedingly confident. Hopeful, but not confident.

Zarec · May 2014

Vartra wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

I'm confused on who you're actually responding to.

I believe the quote was in partial response to posts by you and I both, emphasizing that certain elements of the wider MMO audience threaten to cancel their sub over perceived lack of content. I would say equal amounts if not more have threatened to quit or already have done so in response to the bugs, support responses not being up to their standards, etc. Quite frankly it seems like every time any issue arises, some vocal group threatens to quit if it isn't solved yesterday.

Pushing new content while leaving existing content, mechanics and balance in varying states of disrepair is developing for the business model, not for the player. The same people saying they'll quit if they don't get enough new content every few weeks will quit regardless, so appeasing them is unlikely to retain more players and customers than hammering out all the bugs. Not having new content six weeks after launch isn't what's dissuading people from buying the game and trying it; the amount of negative reviews citing bugs, bugs and more bugs however is certainly doing just that. Thus, to try and keep one group happy you're harming two others.

My issue with player saying they will quit over lack of new game content have never played DDO. I have played that game off and on since 2006 and for two years in that time frame they did not come out with a new update and yet that game is still thriving even though it is sorely outdated in graphics standards and mechanics. There will always be individuals that want content to be pushed out "yesterday" as you put it and a game company that listens to them won't last very long due to those types of players unrealistic expectations. Having a game run smoothly goes a lot longer toward keeping a player base rather then having a set time frame for new content. Yes new content is nice and expected, but what is most important is being able to experience that content with minimal game interruptions which bugs always cause. If you are unable to play the new content, then how does one expect to enjoy the content that was pushed out if things are so buggy you can't even play. Answer: you can't.

So in all..game companies that are constantly trying to keep that small (sometimes vocal) group of players that demand new content happy, end up failing the larger community the most. Unfortunately, that is the trap that ZOE is falling into and it has become apparent that they lack the foresight to realize this.

Ospoon · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

Warning: Long read

ZOS

(community don't lynch me for this comment but...) You came in like a wrecking ball (you know you sang that as you read it) but unfortunately, the mortar was just too thick to make a dent in that wall you boasted you could break down. You have continued to make mistakes that other companies have made. You have (from many gamers perspectives) mislead, done the complete opposite, or downright lied to many gamers who have purchased this game. This was the down fall of SOE (anyone still remember SWG...all I have to say is NGE) as that company has not had a successful mmo style game since 2006 for reasons stated above.

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 was riddled with bugs upon going live and their developers could not get them fixed in a timely manner causing a massive exodus of players who were disgusted with broken promises, unplayable characters, and continuous downtime. You seem to be making the same mistakes that they made.

While I applaud the huge undertaking you have put upon your shoulders, what I can not give you props for is the continued broken skill lines, blocked quest progression, consecutive downtimes, and continued lying to your playerbase.

Broken class skills and broken optional skill lines should have never made it to live. You should only see those when the game is in beta or when a new expansion is coming out and in testing and should be first priority as right out the door as that class if it does not work....the players experience just took a major hit. You nerf before fixing skills lines (both WW, which doesn't work most the time already, and vampire skill lines have been nerfed and both have major borked skills). I have to wonder...are you truly trying to destroy the game right out the door or are your quality controls so sub par that they did not catch these even after numerous bug reports in beta on these same issues?

You nerfed vampire but did not fix the underlying issue which is ult reduction. Vampires can still spam their ult (while not really the issue) and instead of instituting a cap or having the highest reduction cost take precedence over lesser amounts, you nerf the stage reduction cost breaking other skills in the process and making one completely useless due to the amount of magicka it would take to use it.

Another issue that most MMO companies fall prey to is balancing PVP and having it affect PVE. NEVER balance one and have it affect the other as you effect EVERYONE rather than a select group. I have to ask, is your development team so incompetent that they are unable to balance one without messing with the other? Maybe you should look at headhunting some developers from GW2 if you need the help as they at least know how to do that.

First impressions are everything as I know many players that avoided playing SWtor for a year due to players reviews and their friends telling them to not play it due to many of the same issues. Yes SWtor finally made a turn around for the most part, but PR is everything and EA is a very well known (infamous in a way) company. ZOS, not so much so due to your limited resume when it comes to games like this. You have already started negatively out the gate and burned quite a few bridges. I cannot sit by and waste my money on a game that leaves me more feeling helpless than actual enjoyment. I just hope in future updates you can quickly fix these issues and take pages out of other companies DO's and DON'Ts books as you seem to be following in the steps that have hailed the downfall of many games of this type.

To the community,
What are your views on the points that I have touched on? Do you feel you have been lied to or mislead? Do you feel that you should have a wait and see approach?

I agree with 95% of what you've said here, but as i've stated before in other threads, I do believe it's falling on partially deaf ears. They seem to only hear what they want, that's an easy fix, and still refuse to make any overtures of REAL communication with the community. Generic responses with a green title on them, that lack any substance, still don't count, though it is a step forward from launch period communication. The fact they don't even care i'm leaving enough to ask why, in a simple drop-down box, is proof enough for me that it's a moot point continuing to protest against their repeated indiscretions against their customers.

I'm done as well, and my parallel to this level of disbelief and anger and frustration they have induced is XIV 1.0, similar to yours. The saying is cliche but true, people need to speak with their wallet, and only then will the point apparently sink in over at ZOS. They can't seem to learn from 20 years of other gaming companies' mistakes, maybe they can learn by trial-and-error instead.

Malufus · May 2014

another vampire whine thread

blackwolf7 · May 2014

Money. The reason is money.

Why they are making stupid decisions is because of money.

They rushed craglorn instead of putting their resources on fixing bug because they already know a lot of people are not going to resub. So they made sure to announce to public that they are already making a new content ( from an outsiders point of view, it looks good since they dont know the game is riddled with bugs).

You know why no customer support are replying to our threads to shed light to our complaints? Because they only hired 2-3 people in CS. Once again, they pocketed our money instead of investing it to more customer representatives.

Lastly, why are the fixes taking long? Unprofessional devs. They hired freshly grad students who are desperate for a job so they can pay low. They didnt check their skills. Also like ive said, they focused their very limited resources to pushing new content to entice players to try.

TL;DR

They are advertising new content to lure new people. New content makes people believe the game is heading towards a good development. ZoS already know a huge percent of population didnt resub so they have to resort to such tactic to get more money before they fall

SeñorCinco · May 2014

Is Zoe some new slang for ZOS or does it stand for something else entirely? I would have written it off as a typo but its repeated through several posts in the thread.

Endolith · May 2014

ZOS does have a big company backing it. Zenimax is one the largest, if not the largest, privately held video game companies in the U.S. and was valued at $1.2 billion a few years ago according to Wikipedia (and that was before Skyrim). That's the parent company that owns Bethesda, ZOS, and others.

blackwolf7 · May 2014

No wonder they are so good at tricking people into playing a broken game. You dont get that big without stepping on others

SunfireKnight86 · May 2014

It's a Mass Effect 3 situation. They promise one thing, deliver another, tell you that's what they intended the whole time, then throw out quick fixes.

Zarec · May 2014

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Is Zoe some new slang for ZOS or does it stand for something else entirely? I would have written it off as a typo but its repeated through several posts in the thread.

Yeah it was a typo on my part and went back and fixed it in several. I called them ZOE for the longest time before realizing my mistake and I still type it before I catch myself. I am glad I am not the only one though lol.