So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.

If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without reviewing her evidence with no bias because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.

What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should have any bearing on Leona's case.

Hi spartaxoxo it's me again. How are you? Anyways genuine question.
Is it fair to say that as for myself and my own opinion, that it seems like Leona made a mountain out of a mole hill? Like she got outed at work( accidentally or not) threw a big fuss over it, and started drama in the office to the point where they were looking for reasons to fire her (legitimately or Not) and they found that reason when they did her review and found that other coworkers saw her as rude and she did not complete her task. So to avoid a PR nightmare they offered her a nice severance package, that she took.

Now with all that said could it be that as a person, not a LGBTQ member, she is using her community to ensure her a bigger pay day? Knowing that her community will fight for her rights and immediately take her side without question?

I don't think it's fair to say that her medical info being outed at work is just drama. It's genuinely illegal conduct. Workers in this country don't have many rights. But, the few we have are based on the large amounts of harm they can cause if left unchecked. I'm not entirely sure that it was an accident or not, but describing it as throwing a fuss when it's a huge deal psychologically speaking is very unkind. I think that's especially true when the recordings seem to be a sticking point based off their legality. The medical disclosure thing is illegal federally because of the harm it can cause. Two party consent is only the case in a minority of states.

I do think it's fair to say that her other workplace behavior may have caused her to be fired, and she should be glad she got a settlement.

I don't think it's fair to claim she was using her LGBT status when, in fact, there is evidence she was unfairly discriminated against by a bad manager. Hate crimes and discrimination can and do happen.

VaranisArano · July 2023

My personal guess for why this thread is left open is that seems to be ZOS' response whenever there's a wider issue that's hit the gaming press. If it's hit the news, we usually (but not always) get to discuss it.

It may be as simple as not wanting "and ZOS mods closed a thread about it on their official ESO forum" to get quoted in those articles in lieu of more official responses.

That being said, I think the relatively lighter moderation should be taken as a chance to prove that we can handle having nice things, as opposed to proving to ZOS that this is why the forum users can't have nice things.

Rampeal · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.

If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without reviewing her evidence with no bias because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.

What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should have any bearing on Leona's case.

Hi spartaxoxo it's me again. How are you? Anyways genuine question.
Is it fair to say that as for myself and my own opinion, that it seems like Leona made a mountain out of a mole hill? Like she got outed at work( accidentally or not) threw a big fuss over it, and started drama in the office to the point where they were looking for reasons to fire her (legitimately or Not) and they found that reason when they did her review and found that other coworkers saw her as rude and she did not complete her task. So to avoid a PR nightmare they offered her a nice severance package, that she took.

Now with all that said could it be that as a person, not a LGBTQ member, she is using her community to ensure her a bigger pay day? Knowing that her community will fight for her rights and immediately take her side without question?

I don't think it's fair to say that her medical info being outed at work is just drama. It's genuinely illegal conduct. Workers in this country don't have many rights. But, the few we have are based on the large amounts of harm they can cause if left unchecked. I'm not entirely sure that it was an accident or not, but describing it as throwing a fuss when it's a huge deal psychologically speaking is very unkind. I think that's especially true when the recordings seem to be a sticking point based off their legality. The medical disclosure thing is illegal federally because of the harm it can cause. Two party consent is only the case in a minority of states.

I do think it's fair to say that her other workplace behavior may have caused her to be fired, and she should be glad she got a settlement.

I don't think it's fair to claim she was using her LGBT status when, in fact, there is evidence she was unfairly discriminated against by a bad manager. Hate crimes and discrimination can and do happen.

For context this is the infamous outing. There is nothing here that seems malicious by her boss. If anything it seems understanding and sympathetic. Furthermore if you read the text she outed herself by updating her pic. She thought it would take 24-48hrs for others to see it, yet it updated immediately. See, nothing she claims adds up.

tyrobia · July 2023

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.

If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without reviewing her evidence with no bias because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.

What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should have any bearing on Leona's case.

Hi spartaxoxo it's me again. How are you? Anyways genuine question.
Is it fair to say that as for myself and my own opinion, that it seems like Leona made a mountain out of a mole hill? Like she got outed at work( accidentally or not) threw a big fuss over it, and started drama in the office to the point where they were looking for reasons to fire her (legitimately or Not) and they found that reason when they did her review and found that other coworkers saw her as rude and she did not complete her task. So to avoid a PR nightmare they offered her a nice severance package, that she took.

Now with all that said could it be that as a person, not a LGBTQ member, she is using her community to ensure her a bigger pay day? Knowing that her community will fight for her rights and immediately take her side without question?

I don't think it's fair to say that her medical info being outed at work is just drama. It's genuinely illegal conduct. Workers in this country don't have many rights. But, the few we have are based on the large amounts of harm they can cause if left unchecked. I'm not entirely sure that it was an accident or not, but describing it as throwing a fuss when it's a huge deal psychologically speaking is very unkind. I think that's especially true when the recordings seem to be a sticking point based off their legality. The medical disclosure thing is illegal federally because of the harm it can cause. Two party consent is only the case in a minority of states.

I do think it's fair to say that her other workplace behavior may have caused her to be fired, and she should be glad she got a settlement.

I don't think it's fair to claim she was using her LGBT status when, in fact, there is evidence she was unfairly discriminated against by a bad manager. Hate crimes and discrimination can and do happen.

For context this is the infamous outing. There is nothing here that seems malicious by her boss. If anything it seems understanding and sympathetic. Furthermore if you read the text she outed herself by updating her pic. She thought it would take 24-48hrs for others to see it, yet it updated immediately. See, nothing she claims adds up.

You are taking a tiny snippet out of context and trying to use that to destroy Leona's credibility. I assure you that the people on this thread who are not anti-trans are not going to litigate every second of a four hour long video at your whim.

RevJJ · July 2023

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.

You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.

ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.

So you want ZOS to censor those who have an opposing viewpoint? Calling us transphobic is a terrible way to debate about the issue.

What ZOS needs to do is DELETE this entire thread..

You seem to have reached max level irony.

Rampeal · July 2023

Tyrobius wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.

If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without reviewing her evidence with no bias because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.

What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should have any bearing on Leona's case.

Hi spartaxoxo it's me again. How are you? Anyways genuine question.
Is it fair to say that as for myself and my own opinion, that it seems like Leona made a mountain out of a mole hill? Like she got outed at work( accidentally or not) threw a big fuss over it, and started drama in the office to the point where they were looking for reasons to fire her (legitimately or Not) and they found that reason when they did her review and found that other coworkers saw her as rude and she did not complete her task. So to avoid a PR nightmare they offered her a nice severance package, that she took.

Now with all that said could it be that as a person, not a LGBTQ member, she is using her community to ensure her a bigger pay day? Knowing that her community will fight for her rights and immediately take her side without question?

I don't think it's fair to say that her medical info being outed at work is just drama. It's genuinely illegal conduct. Workers in this country don't have many rights. But, the few we have are based on the large amounts of harm they can cause if left unchecked. I'm not entirely sure that it was an accident or not, but describing it as throwing a fuss when it's a huge deal psychologically speaking is very unkind. I think that's especially true when the recordings seem to be a sticking point based off their legality. The medical disclosure thing is illegal federally because of the harm it can cause. Two party consent is only the case in a minority of states.

I do think it's fair to say that her other workplace behavior may have caused her to be fired, and she should be glad she got a settlement.

I don't think it's fair to claim she was using her LGBT status when, in fact, there is evidence she was unfairly discriminated against by a bad manager. Hate crimes and discrimination can and do happen.

For context this is the infamous outing. There is nothing here that seems malicious by her boss. If anything it seems understanding and sympathetic. Furthermore if you read the text she outed herself by updating her pic. She thought it would take 24-48hrs for others to see it, yet it updated immediately. See, nothing she claims adds up.

You are taking a tiny snippet out of context and trying to use that to destroy Leona's credibility. I assure you that the people on this thread who are not anti-trans are not going to litigate every second of a four hour long video at your whim.

I have watched the whole 4 hour video. It's just Leona recorded conversation and text that if listened to by themselves are not out of context. There is many times it is brought up about her poor performance at her job. Then she chimes in telling the viewer how she felt and what she thinks is going on. It is a one sided story. There was absolutely and I mean not one thing said out of place by the manager. They were going above and beyond to cater to her needs.

And I am trying to be generous here, but everytime I have a opinion that differs I get the same response. "Transphobic, Anti-trans, Bigot" heck someone even called me racist...don't know how that applies, but OK. Change the record please.

RaikaNA · July 2023

RevJJ wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.

You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.

ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.

So you want ZOS to censor those who have an opposing viewpoint? Calling us transphobic is a terrible way to debate about the issue.

What ZOS needs to do is DELETE this entire thread..

You seem to have reached max level irony.

uh no... Perhaps you're not understanding me so I'll make it even more simple... Threads like this create conflict... it creates an emotional effect... People take sides... Some people are siding with ZOS thinking that they didn't do anything wrong while others are taking Leona's side.. Those who aren't on Leona's side are being abused and called a bigot and transphobic.. you want the mods to remove anything that isn't siding with your narrative. I the other hand.. and so many other people think that it's appropriate to remove the ENTIRE thread so that people can calm down, and start refocusing on the actual game, and not dealing with politics.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

RaikaNA wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.

You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.

ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.

So you want ZOS to censor those who have an opposing viewpoint? Calling us transphobic is a terrible way to debate about the issue.

What ZOS needs to do is DELETE this entire thread..

You seem to have reached max level irony.

uh no... Perhaps you're not understanding me so I'll make it even more simple... Threads like this create conflict... it creates an emotional effect... People take sides... Some people are siding with ZOS thinking that they didn't do anything wrong while others are taking Leona's side.. Those who aren't on Leona's side are being abused and called a bigot and transphobic.. you want the mods to remove anything that isn't siding with your narrative. I the other hand.. and so many other people think that it's appropriate to remove the ENTIRE thread so that people can calm down, and start refocusing on the actual game, and not dealing with politics.

There have been a lot of bigoted, bashing comments against Leona. People aren't saying that because they didn't agree with Leona, they are saying it because of the language used in dismissing her.

Edit: at least some of it has been removed.

16BitForestCat · July 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is this a good portrayal?

Well, it was good enough to win ESO a GLAAD media award for outstanding video game.

VaranisArano wrote: »

"In Summerset, players undertake a prominent questline entitled Manor of Masques to reunite a transgender woman with her estranged twin sister. The story deals with the difficult topics of coming out and acceptance in a way that reflects the lived reality of many transgender people today."

https://glaad.org/releases/elder-scrolls-online-summerset-wins-inaugural-glaad-media-award-outstanding-video-game-30th/

VaranisArano wrote: »

What's the point of rehashing a quest that came out in 2019?

It goes to show that ESO presents Tamriel as the sort of place where trans people are easily accepted. Where changing their name and gender is less notable than changing their profession. Where unmasking the Hopefuls to try to reveal Larydel's true identity is treated as unforgivable and worthy of banishment. Where transitioning to who she really is makes Alchemy happy and fulfilled, and those who care about her support her.

As I continue to follow this story as more information comes to light, I'll be judging ZOS against the example they themselves set in ESO.

Piggybacking off this to say that I follow the social media of the writer who brought us Alchemy and her wonderful Summerset quest, and that writer actually left ZOS for other gaming companies years ago. That's not a statement about ZOS; the video game industry is one where it's common for people to be frequently shuffling around between companies. That doesn't mean that everyone left at ZOS is a raging transphobe. But it does mean that that one particular LGBTQIA+ writer isn't there putting that content into the game anymore.

Obviously not gonna name names and out anyone, but I also have a friend who worked at ZOS (I live not far from and spend a lot of time in that part of the world). Some years back, that friend came out at work at ZOS and very shortly after learned they were being mocked behind their back by multiple coworkers, specifically for their LGBTQIA+ identity. I'm grateful we've gotten a lot of pro-LGBTQIA+ content from ZOS in ESO, but ZOS, like every other human workgroup, is far from a utopian workplace.

RevJJ · July 2023

RaikaNA wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.

You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.

ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.

So you want ZOS to censor those who have an opposing viewpoint? Calling us transphobic is a terrible way to debate about the issue.

What ZOS needs to do is DELETE this entire thread..

You seem to have reached max level irony.

uh no... Perhaps you're not understanding me so I'll make it even more simple... Threads like this create conflict... it creates an emotional effect... People take sides... Some people are siding with ZOS thinking that they didn't do anything wrong while others are taking Leona's side.. Those who aren't on Leona's side are being abused and called a bigot and transphobic.. you want the mods to remove anything that isn't siding with your narrative. I the other hand.. and so many other people think that it's appropriate to remove the ENTIRE thread so that people can calm down, and start refocusing on the actual game, and not dealing with politics.

First of all, do not put words in my mouth. I have not requested anything to be removed. All I have said previously is that plenty of transphobic comments were not removed by mods.

Second, your generalizations here are doing exactly what you say you want to stop. Moreover, the way you describe the different sides in the discussion clearly show your bias.

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug and this affects real life problems. Yes, this is a video game forum but it’s a video game played by people who, as others have pointed out, still regularly face prejudice by other players within those games which means that something that is an escape from the real world for most cannot be fully enjoyed by them because real life issues follow them in there. In my opinion, the most effective way to resolve that is to face and discuss those real life issues.

Fourth, I have already given you an alternative - don’t read this thread. Yet you continue to come back to it which gives me the impression to me that either you’re looking for an excuse to get triggered by discussion, or you have a genuine agenda to shut down discussions on topics that make you uncomfortable.

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.

Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.

I won't argue against that, because (as was said before) I don't have enough knowledge of US law to make a justified opinion on this. In my country it would definitely be a topic for labor court, but we also have a different legal system in europe.

Nonetheless I'm sure that there were better possibilities to deal with this matter and the actions of HR, if they happened as described (and until now I have no reason to doubt that), leave me with a bad taste.

You cannot fire anyone for any reason in the US. We come close, but there are reasons that you cannot fire someone such as certain types of discrimination or in retaliation for reporting labor violations, that sort of thing. If a person is fired for such a reason, they can sue for wrongful termination. It's much more narrow than in other countries, but there are absolutely wrongful terminations in the US. This is why we have a department of labor and the eeoc.

Thanks for this information. It seems our law systems aren't too different in this regard then.

TaSheen · July 2023

*sigh* I said I was done.

But the one thing no one has said yet is something that occurred to me almost immediately (and it's pretty apt considering some responses here and other places):

As somenone who has been on the receiving end of a targeted attack (back when I worked for a state government a LONG time ago) - the entire point of the input against me was actually to target the employer.

So.... this feels to me as if this employee has decided to take the ex-employer down as an act of retaliation. Which is rather what I see with people posting about not renewing, not playing the game, not ever buying another TES game....

Some of those posts have been removed - but I saw them, and.... for some people, that's an absolutely viable course of action when they have a grievance. I don't know that this is the case here - but.... "been there had that done to me". So I'm not really willing to pretend that isn't possible in this instance.

Disclaimer: I have no issue with anyone who chooses a group to identify with (unless they're someone out there with guns and an agenda against peace and security). But I am not really comfortable with just seeing one side of this whole thing. It's about time for ZOS to show some moxie - verify or not, but silence is NOT golden in this case.

[Edit for typos}

ArchMikem · July 2023

RevJJ wrote: »

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug

I've had a couple threads in the past, started by me, mattered to me, and deleted for one reason or another and no one got up in arms about it on my behalf. Why should other threads get such special treatment when they blatantly violate the ToS here?

VaranisArano · July 2023

16BitForestCat wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is this a good portrayal?

Well, it was good enough to win ESO a GLAAD media award for outstanding video game.

VaranisArano wrote: »

"In Summerset, players undertake a prominent questline entitled Manor of Masques to reunite a transgender woman with her estranged twin sister. The story deals with the difficult topics of coming out and acceptance in a way that reflects the lived reality of many transgender people today."

https://glaad.org/releases/elder-scrolls-online-summerset-wins-inaugural-glaad-media-award-outstanding-video-game-30th/

VaranisArano wrote: »

What's the point of rehashing a quest that came out in 2019?

It goes to show that ESO presents Tamriel as the sort of place where trans people are easily accepted. Where changing their name and gender is less notable than changing their profession. Where unmasking the Hopefuls to try to reveal Larydel's true identity is treated as unforgivable and worthy of banishment. Where transitioning to who she really is makes Alchemy happy and fulfilled, and those who care about her support her.

As I continue to follow this story as more information comes to light, I'll be judging ZOS against the example they themselves set in ESO.

Piggybacking off this to say that I follow the social media of the writer who brought us Alchemy and her wonderful Summerset quest, and that writer actually left ZOS for other gaming companies years ago. That's not a statement about ZOS; the video game industry is one where it's common for people to be frequently shuffling around between companies. That doesn't mean that everyone left at ZOS is a raging transphobe. But it does mean that that one particular LGBTQIA+ writer isn't there putting that content into the game anymore.

Well, best of luck to that writer, whereever they are.

Gonna be honest here about when I played that quest. I'm terrible at mysteries, was not expecting the "twist" at all, and missed all the hints. Alchemy as trans was not even on my radar as a solution to what initially seemed like an ordinary dime-a-dozen "find my missing brother" quest.

Just goes to show that anyone can learn and take these stories to heart!

16BitForestCat · July 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gonna be honest here about when I played that quest. I'm terrible at mysteries, was not expecting the "twist" at all, and missed all the hints. Alchemy as trans was not even on my radar as a solution to what initially seemed like an ordinary dime-a-dozen "find my missing brother" quest.

Haha, I AM trans (FtNonbinary), I love mysteries and puzzles, and I didn't pick up on where the quest was going myself, not until very late in the (literal, heh) game. I know the reason why it didn't ping with me is because trans representation in media is still so uncommon, and still often so poorly done, that my head just wasn't wired to even consider a transgender journey quest a possibility in ESO until it actually happened. But I still have to laugh at myself for not picking up on a character who went through much the same thing I did in real life! That's not the first time, either. There have been multiple times where transgender rep was done so positively and well that I didn't pick up on it until a character flat-out referred to their trans identity...just because I'm so used to it being handled poorly. The more positive and skillfully handled trans rep we get, the more I'll (we'll all) be able to pick up on it without having to be beaten over the head with blunt, "Character A is TRANS!" reveals.

RevJJ · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug

I've had a couple threads in the past, started by me, mattered to me, and deleted for one reason or another and no one got up in arms about it on my behalf. Why should other threads get such special treatment when they blatantly violate the ToS here?

This is a very strange type of logic to me. This thread should be deleted because yours were also deleted in the past? I don’t know what yours were about but what you are effectively saying here is that you agree with ZOS deleting your threads in the past. Interesting stance to take.

gariondavey · July 2023

I'm blown away by the fact that this thread still is open. This is in complete violation of the forum TOS.
In the meantime, please enjoy this fun meme about this insane situation.

ArchMikem · July 2023

RevJJ wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug

I've had a couple threads in the past, started by me, mattered to me, and deleted for one reason or another and no one got up in arms about it on my behalf. Why should other threads get such special treatment when they blatantly violate the ToS here?

This is a very strange type of logic to me. This thread should be deleted because yours were also deleted in the past? I don’t know what yours were about but what you are effectively saying here is that you agree with ZOS deleting your threads in the past. Interesting stance to take.

Just saying, rules should be rules, no matter the topic.

Narvuntien · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.

Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.

What kind of hellscape is this? That isn't how it works anywhere else in the developed world

Narvuntien · July 2023

Poking my head in again.

I am not making any demands, I am asking for the other side of the story, so many have commented that we do not have. The evidence we do have shows a poor response from HR, which I would like addressed.

I don't think talking about religions and hypotheticals is particularly useful so like the philosophy of gender, I think you should also avoid talking about it if you can.

If you don't care, then don't bother commenting, saves everyone time and energy.

RaikaNA · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug

I've had a couple threads in the past, started by me, mattered to me, and deleted for one reason or another and no one got up in arms about it on my behalf. Why should other threads get such special treatment when they blatantly violate the ToS here?

This is a very strange type of logic to me. This thread should be deleted because yours were also deleted in the past? I don’t know what yours were about but what you are effectively saying here is that you agree with ZOS deleting your threads in the past. Interesting stance to take.

Just saying, rules should be rules, no matter the topic.

Exactly... The rules clearly state that Inappropriate Content and Language (Real-world religion and politics) aren't allowed on the forums... yet this thread is still up..

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/community-rules <~~~~ rules are the rules... I'm not being biased... just following the rules.. which should be enforced.

glitter · July 2023

Narvuntien wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.

Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.

What kind of hellscape is this? That isn't how it works anywhere else in the developed world

I mean it is in the US in alot of states. It's called an "At Will" employment situation. Its really common especially in tech, where entire teams get RIF'd when a project is shut down, or to make room for another one the company wants to start or just restructure in general. So it's both the company can release someone at will, or the employee can leave at will.

But it is kind of a hellscape. Like a friend of mine works in a cloud company, and what they do is the company keeps employees from leaving by offering RSUs on a two or four year cycle, then terminate the employees before they reach it. So that way they can pay less, because the wage is low but with literally like 200k of "bonuses" through the RSUs. Then since the RSUs are still in company possession after terminating the employee, they can keep reusing them to hire someone else. So huge company worth billions, but built by a workforce that almost totally turns over every 2-4 years.

RevJJ · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

RevJJ wrote: »

Third, wanting a thread to be deleted is censorship, the exact same thing that you are accusing others of. It appears that you want this issue to be hidden because discussing it makes you uncomfortable. Well, it would make others uncomfortable if it was swept under the rug

I've had a couple threads in the past, started by me, mattered to me, and deleted for one reason or another and no one got up in arms about it on my behalf. Why should other threads get such special treatment when they blatantly violate the ToS here?

This is a very strange type of logic to me. This thread should be deleted because yours were also deleted in the past? I don’t know what yours were about but what you are effectively saying here is that you agree with ZOS deleting your threads in the past. Interesting stance to take.

Just saying, rules should be rules, no matter the topic.

Fortunately (in my opinion) the world is not black and white but filled with shades of all colors of the rainbow.

Rules are hardly ever rules, and if you think that your threads were unjustly closed then I’d propose to question the rules instead of trying to silence others with the argument that you were not listened to so others should also not be heard.

couriersix · July 2023

People are so focused on Leona's work ethic instead of the mistreatment she faced. Regardless if she delayed or failed to turn in work on time, she did not deserve to be forcibly outed repeatedly by her higher ups or put into a position where she felt it was necessary to disclose her own private medical information.

JavaRen · July 2023

I

couriersix wrote: »

People are so focused on Leona's work ethic instead of the mistreatment she faced. Regardless if she delayed or failed to turn in work on time, she did not deserve to be forcibly outed repeatedly by her higher ups or put into a position where she felt it was necessary to disclose her own private medical information.

Work ethic could be relevant to the circumstances of the firing/resignation encouragement. It does not have relevance to the specific harassment claims.

Narvuntien · July 2023

glitter wrote: »

Snip

Do you guys want unionisation materials?

Narvuntien · July 2023

JavaRen wrote: »

I

couriersix wrote: »

People are so focused on Leona's work ethic instead of the mistreatment she faced. Regardless if she delayed or failed to turn in work on time, she did not deserve to be forcibly outed repeatedly by her higher ups or put into a position where she felt it was necessary to disclose her own private medical information.

Work ethic could be relevant to the circumstances of the firing/resignation encouragement. It does not have relevance to the specific harassment claims.

The performance review was done by a manager who clearly didn't understand Leona's situation and as such this is a situation where HR would have to get involved. But it seems when they did get involved they took the manager's word, at least that is the information I have and Zenimax has not provided any counter information.

Bucky_13 · July 2023

DragonRacer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

You can turn it into whatever you want

There's nothing turning about it. The manager tells her to go by a deadname and intentionally outed her in front of her colleagues.

There's not a chance that they aren't familiar with how to change names properly. People change their names all the time. It's customary for married women to change their names. Names get recorded incorrectly and need to be fixed. Unique names get misspelled and have to be updated.

It's far easier to believe that there was weaponized incompetence because they didn't support Leona's name change than it is to believe that a multimillion dollar corporation that's been around decades has never had to change someone's name before.

They certainly didn't pay for her expensive surgeries on the agreement she not sue them because name changes are generally beyond their capability.

They paid her to leave quietly because they didn’t want to have to build an extremely expensive defense team to combat her in court.

They wouldn't be worried about that if things were as cut and dry as you're trying to paint them to be. Her manager outed her and noticeably failed to do bare minimum things to the point other employees complained.

And yes, they can absolutely counter sue for legal fees.

Name changes literally happen all the time. I'm not talking about print name tags.

I feel like people not recognizing name changes happen have never worked in a company where a woman began working there under her maiden name, then got married. Traditionally, that means taking your husband’s last name for your own and you have to jump through all the legal hoops - new Social Security card, new driver’s license, updating soooo many documents, etc.

Funny thing is, company I worked at during that time had an IT dude who basically described how much of a pain in the butt apparently changing my login identity would be and how I might be locked out of the system for days, etc that I did actually end up having to log in with my maiden name for YEARS before a new company bought us and new software systems meant I could finally change my login to my married name.

Wild. Just mind-blowing, honestly.

I find these stores so weird, I worked at Lidl for a couple of years as a manager and helped a few in the staff to change their names, some because of marriage and two cases because of misspelled names. We sent in a form to the national HQ and it got updated with no issues.

Sure, it's a large company but they weren't exactly the most IT savvy company I've worked for (so many IT issues and screw ups with payslips). It should be a standard for all companies to be able to change employee names since it does happen. Most commonly via marriage but also for other reasons such as gender changes.

Oh, and taking time off for surgery that wasn't medically necessary
was also something that was no issues for people to do. Might be that I'm living in the EU and not US, since US do have 3rd world country labour laws, but still it baffles me.

Danikat · July 2023

According to various media articles the situation is going to court, which might be why ZOS haven't made any kind of statement, even to say they're aware of the accusation. But I'm surprised they're not at least doing some type of damage control, even just saying they won't comment on on-going legal cases and expect it to be resolved in court.

I suppose I'll have to wait and see what the outcome of the legal proceedings are.

glitter wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.

Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.

What kind of hellscape is this? That isn't how it works anywhere else in the developed world

I mean it is in the US in alot of states. It's called an "At Will" employment situation. Its really common especially in tech, where entire teams get RIF'd when a project is shut down, or to make room for another one the company wants to start or just restructure in general. So it's both the company can release someone at will, or the employee can leave at will.

But it is kind of a hellscape. Like a friend of mine works in a cloud company, and what they do is the company keeps employees from leaving by offering RSUs on a two or four year cycle, then terminate the employees before they reach it. So that way they can pay less, because the wage is low but with literally like 200k of "bonuses" through the RSUs. Then since the RSUs are still in company possession after terminating the employee, they can keep reusing them to hire someone else. So huge company worth billions, but built by a workforce that almost totally turns over every 2-4 years.

It can cause a lot of legal problems when US companies start operating internationally because many Americans seem to assume their laws are universal, or that the entire company only has to follow the law of wherever their head office is based.

There are entire legal firms which exist to teach US companies how to operate in the EU, including explaining fairly basic things like the fact that all employees must have a contract and cannot sign away the right to things like maximum working hours and minimum vacation time. How to fire someone outside the US is a common topic.

Holycannoli · July 2023

[snip]

and here is this thread still up with ZERO moderation. It should have been nuked right away. Not closed, not moderated, but nuked. Deleted. No warnings necessary for anyone participating, just delete it. It has no place on this forum. I don't understand what's going on?

[Edited for Discussing Disciplinary Action]