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So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?
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tyrobia✭✭✭✭This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.
You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.
ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.19 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭It does appear that the Community team has edited and removed some of the more virulently transphobic posts in this thread, thank you for doing that.11
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JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tyrobius, as a "right winger" who whole-heartedly supports trans (as well as all other human rights) I take offense at your stereotyping of me.14 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭Tyrobius, as a "right winger" who whole-heartedly supports trans (as well as all other human rights) I take offense at your stereotyping of me.
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but if you consider yourself to be a rightwinger you need to analyze how your political beliefs affect others and whether or not the political party you support (or which conforms most closely to your political beliefs) is actually supporting trans rights or human rights in general.11 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭It does appear that the Community team has edited and removed some of the more virulently transphobic posts in this thread, thank you for doing that.
It is not Transphobic to disagree with you, say you are wrong, or not support your cause. It is not transphobic to ask for evidence to be presented by this person's claim of being fired. It is not transphobic criticize the LGBTQ+ movement when it has in the past bullied people for not agreeing with them about videos games(Hogwart's Legacy).
Furthermore it is not Transphobic to question allegations brought on by a disgruntled employee covered by Jim Sterling, a person who has made his money and life's work on attacking video game companies and people for having the audacity to question his narrative.
Calling someone transphobic or a bigot doesn't make it true just because they don't agree with you.27 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is transphobic to judge an entire demographic of people by it's most annoying individuals. It is transphobic if you don't support the cause of transgender people to be treated as equal to everyone else. It is transphobic to not grant Leona the same unbiased review of the facts as anyone else, rather than presuming her guilty of lying from the start based off a general dislike for LGBT.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 5:26PM16 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tyrobius, as a "right winger" who whole-heartedly supports trans (as well as all other human rights) I take offense at your stereotyping of me.
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but if you consider yourself to be a rightwinger you need to analyze how your political beliefs affect others and whether or not the political party you support (or which conforms most closely to your political beliefs) is actually supporting trans rights or human rights in general.
As to your comments about political parties: roughly 90% of politicians who claim my ideals do not, I agree with you that many of them are harmful to the rights we both want supported. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you have not knowingly had interactions with others of the principled fraction of conservatives (like myself) who are like myself. This is really unfortunate, if more good hearted and folks of varied ideals realized what they agreed about more could be done to advance those common goals.
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Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »It is transphobic to judge an entire demographic of people by it's most annoying individuals. It is transphobic if you don't support the cause of transgender people to be treated as equal to everyone else. It is transphobic to not grant Leona the same unbiased review of the facts as anyone else, rather than presuming her guilty of lying from the start.
What if my Religion forbids me from participating such behavior and thus forbids me from supporting it? Does their rights supercede my rights? To tell me how to think and feel?
And I do not presume Leona Innocent or Guilty. I just want stronger evidence than just word of mouth. A disgruntled employee being fired has to prove the reason for her being fired is because of her being Trans. The burden of proof lies on her, Not Zos.16 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It does appear that the Community team has edited and removed some of the more virulently transphobic posts in this thread, thank you for doing that.
It is not Transphobic to disagree with you, say you are wrong, or not support your cause. It is not transphobic to ask for evidence to be presented by this person's claim of being fired. It is not transphobic criticize the LGBTQ+ movement when it has in the past bullied people for not agreeing with them about videos games(Hogwart's Legacy).
Furthermore it is not Transphobic to question allegations brought on by a disgruntled employee covered by Jim Sterling, a person who has made his money and life's work on attacking video game companies and people for having the audacity to question his narrative.
Calling someone transphobic or a bigot doesn't make it true just because they don't agree with you.
There is a 4-hour video with evidence, even the shorter Jim Stephine Sterling video I linked there is evidence. It is the nature of youtube that people seem to like negative coverage rather than positive coverage J-S Sterling isn't the only person tapped by the system that way. I don't think video game companies need you to protect them from criticism.
Here is a video by a member of our community going through the 4 hour video so it's only 1 hour now instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5V6YAA4uyg
There aren't laws being passed preventing you from playing Hogwarts Legacy, in fact you can do it quietly from the privacy of your own home with no problem. There were issues where trans members of a streamer's community asked that they don't play the game and felt aggrieved when they decided to play it anyway. Parasocial relationships going a bit too far it happens a lot. I think you have to think about scales of harm here one is oppression by workplaces and in some cases government another is some people being angry at you on the internet, its not really comparable.9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »It is transphobic to judge an entire demographic of people by it's most annoying individuals. It is transphobic if you don't support the cause of transgender people to be treated as equal to everyone else. It is transphobic to not grant Leona the same unbiased review of the facts as anyone else, rather than presuming her guilty of lying from the start.
What if my Religion forbids me from participating such behavior and thus forbids me from supporting it? Does their rights supercede my rights? To tell me how to think and feel?
You don't have to support "behavior" to support someone having equal rights under the law. I was the victim of a racist hate crime by a white supremacist. I don't go around saying that free speech shouldn't apply to everyone, or judge all people who share his demographic by his actions. If I did that, it would be racist.
I'm a Christian. I still support equal rights under the law for all human beings. It's not an excuse. I express my faith through love, not hate.And I do not presume Leona Innocent or Guilty. I just want stronger evidence than just word of mouth. A disgruntled employee being fired has to prove the reason for her being fired is because of her being Trans. The burden of proof lies on her, Not Zos.
If you actually believed that you'd bother to get the facts of the case correct. She's not relying on word of mouth. She has a 4 hour video with audio evidence. Whether or not she's proven her case, she deserves at least the bare minimum the truth being said about her.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 5:44PM17 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tyrobius, as a "right winger" who whole-heartedly supports trans (as well as all other human rights) I take offense at your stereotyping of me.
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but if you consider yourself to be a rightwinger you need to analyze how your political beliefs affect others and whether or not the political party you support (or which conforms most closely to your political beliefs) is actually supporting trans rights or human rights in general.
As to your comments about political parties: roughly 90% of politicians who claim my ideals do not, I agree with you that many of them are harmful to the rights we both want supported. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you have not knowingly had interactions with others of the principled fraction of conservatives (like myself) who are like myself. This is really unfortunate, if more good hearted and folks of varied ideals realized what they agreed about more could be done to advance those common goals.
If that's the case, the bare minimum done in this thread could have been to speak up against the transphobia in it rather than only when something was said about right wingers.
I'll be glad when the principled conservatives start making themselves known when they see their own making things miserable for minorities.
Leona deserved the same level of civility we give discussions about a video game. Instead she was bashed constantly.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 5:45PM11 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I want to say that I have no problem with Leona being trans.
Leona will probably lose the case. All we see now is a one-sided video that is edited to fit the narrative of one party. We don't have the full details. Just an edited version of what they want us to hear. From that video, I just can't understand it.
They had a cutthroat team lead that was biased. Leona moved to another team lead that was not biased. They got praise from the other team lead for the work they did, what happened? Why did Leona never bring up the work they previously did under this previous cutthroat team lead. If it was exceptional work, and then degraded after the trans announcement they may have a case.
If they quit after the new team lead praised them they have no case. What pressure did they have to resign if there when they had a team lead that could vouch for their work?
If they were still fired after the praise from the new team lead, THEN they have a case. It would mean that someone in Zenimax (or is it Bethesda?) still wanted them out. Not just one fringe manager who only cares about the cogs turning. UNLESS a contract was up anyways, they have no case. Zenimax holds the right not to renew contracts.
Perfection will never exist in this universe. In fact, I hold a personal truth that perfection was shattered to create this universe. Equality is a subset of perfection. Equality will never exist. What we see in the universe are remnants of perfection from the yester universe. Accept your flaws and have others keep them in check. The shattering of perfection created the ability for life. Flaws are woven into the universe.Trying to be everyone's perfect being is left to a god. Not you, you are a human you have flaws understand them and live with them.
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JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a long standing policy to not argue with ignorant savages on the internet, and try, try, to follow the forum rules. Hence my limited replies here.
And I would also love to see more folks who share my ideals speaking up and taking action.3 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭So Leona came out to her co workers before being ousted by her boss, to this even she admits. Than she tries to get people fired for what she deems to be transphobic attacks. So basically this one person is making a hostile work environment for other workers while claiming they are being the ones hostile towards her (again he said she said). In her review her boss is quoted saying that she was rude, and didn't finish her work, to which she of course denies. So they offer her a severance package to which she accepts, which they were in the right to fire her.
From my opinion it seems that Leona is a entitled and rude person who did not do her job. That is just my opinion. So does that make me transphobic.
@spartaxoxo I am a proud Muslim Conservative. And no I can not support the LGBTQ community in any way. That being said I do agree with you that everyone should be equal under the law, yet I have not found one law or right denied for the LGBTQ community. This community shares all the legal rights and protections as any American. If not more so since I am not considered to be a protected class as a member of the LGBTQ community is considered to be a protected class with laws catered to their organization.21 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have a long standing policy to not argue with ignorant savages on the internet, and try, try, to follow the forum rules. Hence my limited replies here.
And I would also love to see more folks who share my ideals speaking up and taking action.
They are clearly allowing a certain level of debate here, that they haven't elsewhere. Beyond that, it's not necessary to call out an individual to say something like "Leona doesn't deserve transphobic and bashing comments aimed at her. She does deserve a fair and unbiased review of her case. We shouldn't be judging her based off what other unrelated transpeople have done," or whatever other more general statement that you personally believe. That's just an example.
Be the change you want to see. As a Christian woman, that's what I'm doing. I can plainly see Leona is being mistreated, so I'm saying something. It's not much in the grand scheme of things. It's literally the bare minimum. But, it's what I can do, so I'm doing it. I don't want the narrative to be that it's okay to hide behind religion to treat people unequally. So, I'll contribute what little I can to counteract it.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 6:19PM7 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am a proud Muslim Conservative. And no I can not support the LGBTQ community in any way. That being said I do agree with you that everyone should be equal under the law, yet I have not found one law or right denied for the LGBTQ community. This community shares all the legal rights and protections as any American. If not more so since I am not considered to be a protected class as a member of the LGBTQ community is considered to be a protected class with laws catered to their organization.
You cannot deny service based on religion and it is a protected class. The supreme court just ruled that you can deny service to gay people. LGBT are not treated equal under society. They are banning books, education, etc about them. Even now, in this thread, people are applying a different standard to Zenimax than to Leona. They say that Zeni is innocent until proven guilty of discrimination. But, Leona is guilty until proven innocent of lying in an attempt to secure special treatment based on her status.
How is it equal that one party is innocent until proven guilty, but the other is guilty until proven innocent? That is not equality.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 6:24PM21 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Okay, Leona, like every human, deserves fair and compassionate treatment. If you disagree with this you are a meaniehead. Since we have incomplete and biased evidence in this particular case it will be very hard for a truly honest "verdict" to be reached here, and it should be obvious that no official statement from ZOS is forthcoming here, but they have allowed this debate to run, in gross violation of their own rules, which the cynic in me finds suspicious. So what are we all trying to accomplish here? Has anyone changed their position, relative to Leona or the broader transrights issue? (Honest question).3 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
You are mistaken. SCOTUS ruled that the baker can refuse to write anything on a cake that is against his religion, he however can not refuse to sell a cake based on sexual orientation.
Basically anyone can order a cake, however you may not force someone to decorate or write something that goes against their religion.
It would be no different than a LGBTQ baker refusing to write a passage from the Quran condemning homosexuality. They have the right to refuse to write it. It protects both parties.
Need to look into the actual case, instead of just watching news coverage off it which has a clear bias.Edited by Rampeal on July 20, 2023 6:31PM16 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So Leona came out to her co workers before being ousted by her boss, to this even she admits. Than she tries to get people fired for what she deems to be transphobic attacks. So basically this one person is making a hostile work environment for other workers while claiming they are being the ones hostile towards her (again he said she said). In her review her boss is quoted saying that she was rude, and didn't finish her work, to which she of course denies. So they offer her a severance package to which she accepts, which they were in the right to fire her.
From my opinion it seems that Leona is a entitled and rude person who did not do her job. That is just my opinion. So does that make me transphobic.
If I disclose private personal information to one person, it does not make it okay for my boss to share it with the entire office. It's not okay to out people. She doesn't just deem that anti-lgbt behavior, it is anti-lgbt behavior.
That you would use the outing as her being the hostile one, shows a lack of compassion towards her, quite frankly.
It would be one thing if was chalked up to an honest mistake. But, like, she's rude for not wanting be outed?Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 6:34PM9 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." - MLK9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Okay, Leona, like every human, deserves fair and compassionate treatment. If you disagree with this you are a meaniehead. Since we have incomplete and biased evidence in this particular case it will be very hard for a truly honest "verdict" to be reached here, and it should be obvious that no official statement from ZOS is forthcoming here, but they have allowed this debate to run, in gross violation of their own rules, which the cynic in me finds suspicious. So what are we all trying to accomplish here? Has anyone changed their position, relative to Leona or the broader transrights issue? (Honest question).
I learned about her case that I was previously unaware of. My position hasn't changed because it's the default one I give all people. Both parties are innocent of any wrongdoing until proven otherwise. But, it things happened as alleged, then I feel bad for Leona.4 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Figured I’d chime in again.
Being hands-off doesn’t make you against something. That is such an aggressive and outdated way of thinking, that’s like saying when a soldier goes off to fight for your freedom, you’re against the idea of “freedom” for not participating, by that logic that would mean that 99.5% of America doesn’t believe freedom is worth fighting for, in which case, why are you here?
“Now, there are about 1.3 million active-duty personnel, or less than one-half of 1 percent of the U.S. population as of Jul 13, 2020”
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military#:~:text=Now, there are about 1.3,percent of the U.S. population.
Hopefully with that analogy, there can finally be some understanding in regards to that, and the misconceptions flying around.
That being said, I’m done with this thread, if anyone wants to have a chat about ESO, I’ll be on any other topic.
Good luck reaching a middle ground.Edited by Tyrant_Tim on July 20, 2023 6:43PM9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Figured I’d chime in again.
Being hands-off doesn’t make you against something.
The only thing necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.
There are many ways to go against the grain without putting yourself in harms way e.g. Voting, speaking up, etc. No, it doesn't make you against freedom to not be a soldier. It does make you against freedom if you continuously vote against it without ever speaking up to try and change your parties attitudes towards being anti-freedom. That's complicit.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 6:46PM14 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are mistaken. SCOTUS ruled that the baker can refuse to write anything on a cake that is against his religion, he however can not refuse to sell a cake based on sexual orientation.
It is not a wedding cake if it's not themed after the wedding. It literally legalized treating customers differently based on their orientation. They have allowed wedding bakers to deny service to others and it opens up a precedent that will likely result in other services being denied as well.
The supreme court has also flat out signaled marriage is likely next in one of their opinions
There is a clear anti-lgbt sentiment in this thread, in this society, in our government.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 6:56PM12 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »So Leona came out to her co workers before being ousted by her boss, to this even she admits. Than she tries to get people fired for what she deems to be transphobic attacks. So basically this one person is making a hostile work environment for other workers while claiming they are being the ones hostile towards her (again he said she said). In her review her boss is quoted saying that she was rude, and didn't finish her work, to which she of course denies. So they offer her a severance package to which she accepts, which they were in the right to fire her.
From my opinion it seems that Leona is a entitled and rude person who did not do her job. That is just my opinion. So does that make me transphobic.
If I disclose private personal information to one person, it does not make it okay for my boss to share it with the entire office. That you say you're anti-lgbt, by your own statements, in general makes your stance against Leona utterly predictable. It's not okay to out people. She doesn't just deem that anti-lgbt behavior, it is anti-lgbt behavior.
That you would use the outing as her being the hostile one, shows a lack of compassion towards her, quite frankly.
It would be one thing if was chalked up to an honest mistake. But, like, she's rude for not wanting be outed?
I am not anti-lgbtq. I never stated I was. They have every right to form their group as anyone else does. They have every right to exist as I do. I just can not, nor will not support the organization due to my religious beliefs.
And as far as Leona, by your own statements, in general makes your stance for Leona utterly predictable. See, It is a two way street.
She went to HR. They said that her boss ousting her was a "Unfortunate mistake", but not deemed it worthy of disciplinary action. Which I can very much relate too.
For Example: If I went into work, cut off my beard and started wearing feminine clothes, then telling my coworkers I am trans... I don't see how it is not assumed I am Trans?
Did the boss make a mistake? Yes. Should his lively hood be ruined because of said mistake? Absolutely not. Especially when he did not lie about the said person, only told a truth that she didn't want told...yet told people..I guess.9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »So Leona came out to her co workers before being ousted by her boss, to this even she admits. Than she tries to get people fired for what she deems to be transphobic attacks. So basically this one person is making a hostile work environment for other workers while claiming they are being the ones hostile towards her (again he said she said). In her review her boss is quoted saying that she was rude, and didn't finish her work, to which she of course denies. So they offer her a severance package to which she accepts, which they were in the right to fire her.
From my opinion it seems that Leona is a entitled and rude person who did not do her job. That is just my opinion. So does that make me transphobic.
If I disclose private personal information to one person, it does not make it okay for my boss to share it with the entire office. That you say you're anti-lgbt, by your own statements, in general makes your stance against Leona utterly predictable. It's not okay to out people. She doesn't just deem that anti-lgbt behavior, it is anti-lgbt behavior.
That you would use the outing as her being the hostile one, shows a lack of compassion towards her, quite frankly.
It would be one thing if was chalked up to an honest mistake. But, like, she's rude for not wanting be outed?
I am not anti-lgbtq. I never stated I was. They have every right to form their group as anyone else does. They have every right to exist as I do. I just can not, nor will not support the organization due to my religious beliefs.
And as far as Leona, by your own statements, in general makes your stance for Leona utterly predictable. See, It is a two way street.
She went to HR. They said that her boss ousting her was a "Unfortunate mistake", but not deemed it worthy of disciplinary action. Which I can very much relate too.
For Example: If I went into work, cut off my beard and started wearing feminine clothes, then telling my coworkers I am trans... I don't see how it is not assumed I am Trans?
Did the boss make a mistake? Yes. Should his lively hood be ruined because of said mistake? Absolutely not. Especially when he did not lie about the said person, only told a truth that she didn't want told...yet told people..I guess.
You have stated it with your whole I cannot support their equal rights statement. Disclosing private medical information is illegal. People tend to lose their jobs when they do illegal things on behalf of the job. Treating Leona as unreasonable and deserving of being fired because she angry her rights (that all employees have) were violated....Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 7:01PM12 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Figured I’d chime in again.
Being hands-off doesn’t make you against something.
The only thing necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.
There are many ways to go against the grain without putting yourself in harms way e.g. Voting, speaking up, etc. No, it doesn't make you against freedom to not be a soldier. It does make you against freedom if you continuously vote against it without ever speaking up to try and change your parties attitudes towards being anti-freedom. That's complicit.
Good and Evil are just different points of views.
Some consider the act of homosexuality good, others consider it evil.
The victor usually dictates which one was right and which one was wrong.9 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rampeal, do you oppose the pork industry having a lobbying group? How about alcohol producers?3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 7:06PM4
This discussion has been closed.