So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?

vinnyml · July 2023

Figured I’d clear this up because there seems to be confusion. When you use the word “, or” it indicates a separate thing entirely.
Gender transitional surgeries are an elective, as they are not necessary.
Gender transitional medications fall under “Gender Affirming Care” even though some may consider those unnecessary too..

What is your source for this? I'm not asking this as a "gotcha" question or anything; I genuinely would like to read the relevant laws, but can't find anything.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2023

Wild idea here: there might have been another reason that person was fired. It just happen to ine up with her surgery. She may want to use that to create drama/sue.

Want me to take her side? Bring proof that she was fired for that exact reason.

If you take a surgery, especially a cosmetic one, that will make you miss work for a long time, you should take a leave of abscence whathever time is required for you to be able to accomplish you work in a reasonable manner.

Well good luck to that person in her futur

VaranisArano · July 2023

I can't help but feel that if companies hadn't decided it was an acceptable status quo for newly married/divorced women to have to wait several months+ to get their legal name changes through the system, they'd be a little better prepared for situations like this now where people very reasonably don't want to be called by a name that outs them as someone they aren't anymore.

Blaming the software seems like an opportunity for someone to write better software and for companies to get moving on better best practices.

And hey, newly married/divorced women, trans people, and anyone else who wants to change their legal name will benefit. Win-win!

Ingenon · July 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can't help but feel that if companies hadn't decided it was acceptable for newly married/divorced women to have to wait several months+ to get their legal name changes through the system, they'd be a little better prepared for situations like this now where people very reasonably don't want to be called by a name that outs them as someone they aren't anymore.

Blaming the software seems like an opportunity for someone to write better software and for companies to get moving on better best practices.

And hey, newly married/divorced women, trans people, and anyone else who wants to change their legal name will benefit. Win-win!

^ This

I know someone who is an experienced IT Support. Their industry requires that only authenticated people are allowed to do specific tasks online. My acquaintance mentioned recently about how hard it was to change the login username with their company software. Literally request tickets for login name changes would pile up because other support folks would avoid working them, and my acquaintance would work for some time to get through all of them. Apparently, the login name change part was trivial, but getting the multiple group assignments per person correct required careful tedious work.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Katheriah · July 2023

I had my legal name changed (my dad had put the wrong name on my birth certificate, thanks dad

). It was hell to have it changed at work and they only did it after my legal name change. Some software made it difficult, some software made it impossible. My old emailaddress is still an alias of my new one. I believe on steam it may not even be possible to change the name you have to type to login?

It's a hassle. But it's a hassle for everyone.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

vinnyml wrote: »

Figured I’d clear this up because there seems to be confusion. When you use the word “, or” it indicates a separate thing entirely.
Gender transitional surgeries are an elective, as they are not necessary.
Gender transitional medications fall under “Gender Affirming Care” even though some may consider those unnecessary too..

What is your source for this? I'm not asking this as a "gotcha" question or anything; I genuinely would like to read the relevant laws, but can't find anything.

No problem.

https://www.aamc.org/news/what-gender-affirming-care-your-questions-answered

“Gender-affirming care, as defined by the World Health Organization, encompasses a range of social, psychological, behavioral, and medical interventions “designed to support and affirm an individual’s gender identity” when it conflicts with the gender they were assigned at birth. The interventions help transgender people align various aspects of their lives — emotional, interpersonal, and biological — with their gender identity. As noted by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), that identity can run anywhere along a continuum that includes man, woman, a combination of those, neither of those, and fluid.”

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

I had my legal name changed (my dad had put the wrong name on my birth certificate, thanks dad ). It was hell to have it changed at work and they only did it after my legal name change. Some software made it difficult, some software made it impossible. My old emailaddress is still an alias of my new one. I believe on steam it may not even be possible to change the name you have to type to login?

It's a hassle. But it's a hassle for everyone.

Exactly, it puts a spotlight on those who have never worked for a large corporation by how little they know about the process involved in things others might consider minor.

SlyReynard · July 2023

I work for a state govt agency. All the women I know that've gotten married while employed still have their maiden name as their email (which is also their network login.) Like, married years and years ago. It might not be impossible to change but might as well be.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

Tandor · July 2023

freespirit wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Legal and the PR department are probably studying every word on every forum regarding this situation.

I think it's obvious that the mods have been told "hands off" regarding this thread, because just the multiple TOS violations should have closed it long ago. Like you said, I'm sure ZOS is reading every word. So maybe by keeping this thread going, we're helping to strengthen their legal case in some way. Just speculation.

I suspect you are correct in your speculation!

I worry the person at the root of this may have done their case a great deal of harm by telling their story on the internet. There are probably many discussions like this one going on now. 🙁

Agreed. Regardless of the merits of your case, if you're going to take on a corporate on contractual and other points of law, the courts are probably a more effective place to do so than You Tube, Reddit, and game forums. They don't really help your chances.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

"When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.

And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion."

Mhmm yes, relative to the thread.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

"When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.

And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading…

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Mhmm yes, relative to the thread.

I agree wholeheartedly, glad we’re on the same page.

Stanx · July 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

"When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.

And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion."

Mhmm yes, relative to the thread.

Urban dictionary is not a reliable source for information, it is user generated and it feels a bit stilted using it to try and refute a quote from a journal.

Everyone has blinkers on and only sees what they want to see, endorses what aligns with their values and this whole thread is becoming a farce.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

Stanx wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

"When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.

And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion."

Mhmm yes, relative to the thread.

Urban dictionary is not a reliable source for information, it is user generated and it feels a bit stilted using it to try and refute a quote from a journal.

Everyone has blinkers on and only sees what they want to see, endorses what aligns with their values and this whole thread is becoming a farce.

Becoming? It always has been.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

"At will" doesn't mean they can fire someone for illegal reasons. There are still a small amount of reasons it's illegal to fire someone e.g. pregnancy discrimination or trans discrimination. This case is about the latter.

There's a difference between someone using their identity in a negative way to shield themselves from criticism or berate others. And a person who is the victim of actual discrimination or hate crimes, especially when that person has the receipts to prove it. This employee is clearly the latter. Her manager did things like purposefully out her to her colleagues. That's not okay.

It is political bias at best to not be able to distinguish the difference between the two. Hate crimes and discrimination exist and minorities should not be afraid to speak about it.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

vinnyml wrote: »

Figured I’d clear this up because there seems to be confusion. When you use the word “, or” it indicates a separate thing entirely.
Gender transitional surgeries are an elective, as they are not necessary.
Gender transitional medications fall under “Gender Affirming Care” even though some may consider those unnecessary too..

What is your source for this? I'm not asking this as a "gotcha" question or anything; I genuinely would like to read the relevant laws, but can't find anything.

You won't find anything because it's not how it's considered in the medical world. And it's not how it is considered by law as the law has not caught up to it yet.

Leading medical organizations in the United States agree that gender-affirming care are the most effective treatment for gender dysphoria. The American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association have issued position statements supporting coverage for medically necessary treatment as determined by a patient and their health care provider.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/31/health/transgender-medically-necessary-procedures/index.html

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

"At will" doesn't mean they can fire someone for illegal reasons. There are still a small amount of reasons it's illegal to fire someone e.g. pregnancy discrimination or trans discrimination.

There's a difference between someone using their identity in a negative way to shield themselves from criticism or berate others. And a person who is the victim of actual discrimination or hate crimes, especially when that person has the receipts to prove it.

The absolute best that can be said about people who cannot tell the difference and claim anytime a minority brings up their identity it's "woke victim" blah blah is that they are so biased in their political opinion that they can no longer make out individuals.

You’re picking what seems relevant to you and trying to create a narrative that doesn’t exist. Pretty common practice nowadays.

The term woke and how it was used in regards to Leona was the first and true meaning of the word, not an Urban dictionary interpretation.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Woke being an awareness to sexism inequality.
Identity being that Leona identifies as an unequal sex.
Politics being that this is a matter of contention and discussion, with characters acting the judge.

Have you given a glance at all of the people posting about their corporate name change experiences? What did you learn?

That perhaps her experiences with the account name changing process are common and not dependent on her identity?

That people pushing this issue on our forum are culpable of pushing Woke Identity Politics?

thejadefalcon · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

I don't care how it looks. I will eagerly report every single person who is being transphobic. ESO doesn't need them. The world doesn't need them. Not now, not ever.

I don't care how you justify it, it's bigoted and it's wrong and I can only pray no-one close to you is affected by your words and actions. You have claimed simultaneously that this has nothing to do with their identity as a trans person, while making every single effort you can to bring up that they're trans. You have people agreeing with your statements, however veiled you try to make them, with outright bigotry, claiming your post was perfect and that trans people are only "pretending" and that they're just living a "fantasy." Hilariously, this person has a signature line about Stendarr, god of Mercy, Justice and Compassion. None of which are traits transphobes have.

I notice how quickly you were to post this dismissal to me, but you never bothered to call them out on it if you truly felt that sort of statement was beyond the pale. Curious, that.

Don't talk about how "gross" other people's views are if you're unwilling to make a stand against even the most blatant bigots.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

False. The term woke was improperly applied to Leona based on a meritless assumption of her guilt without a careful review of all of the facts of the case. We don't have them so it's impossible for anyone to claim they did.

Using the term woke to describe a legitimate and evidence based accusation of workplace discrimination discourages minorities from discussing potential discrimination and seeking justice. Whether or not that's the intention of the person using it, that is the effect.

Have you given a glance at all of the people posting about their corporate name change experiences? What did you learn?

Not a single person posted that they were given a negative review about their work ethic when technical support made their change.

On top of that, my own professional experiences have name changes processed in weeks, not months. Name changes are common enough that many people have stories about them, completely defeating the argument that changing a name is extremely unusual and should be something beyond the capability of the company or treatment that is special to Leona. It also completely defeats the argument that she was being treated that way because they were confused. Changing a name is normal business.

If they knew they were difficult to begin with, a timeline should have been given to her, an apology for the frustration, and she should not have been blamed when they botched her name change and prevented her from logging in. Instead they scapegoated her for tech issues that should have been well known and outed her to her colleagues.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

There it is with that narrative again.
Weird, It’s almost as if you have an agenda.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Finally, let’s make this very clear.

If it’s determined in court that ZOS are held liable for neglect or malpractice in the workplace, you can expect the same level of defense for Faren not just from me, but from everyone.

Until then, let’s end the speculation and get back to the important things like buffing Templar.

Jaraal · July 2023

Stanx wrote: »

Everyone has blinkers on and only sees what they want to see

Well, they certainly didn't see the exit.... or else they did, and simply decided not to get off.

Syldras · July 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

Sorry to get so technical, but I see this thing about male vs. female brains and trans people having brains of the opposite sex so often that it's irritating.

Where's the dysphoria coming from, if it is not an incongruency in fetal development? Genuinely curious about the current state of research. When I read about this topic out of curiosity many years ago (must be the early 2000's, when no one complained about "identity politics" and the word "woke" wasn't that common yet... and people still discussed specific topics instead of compulsively pigeonholing everything - great times), there was a study that theorized that the change of hormone levels of the mother during pregnancy could be the cause. As (to put it simply) the sexual organs (that differentiate from an until then ambiguous tissue) and the child's brain develop at different times, and if there's a bigger change in hormone levels, one could develop (for example) into the "male" direction, the other into the "female" (basically an intersex condition between sexual organs and brain structure). And with these brain differenciations I don't mean all that culturally conditioned "gender role" nonsense as in "women love to bear children, men love to die in a war" (which, if it was up to me, could be abolished altogether - people should just live the way they want to, without being limited by heteronomous expectations based on random physical aspects) - but a kind of mental inherent body map, a sense for what body parts should be present. To me, that sounded like a reasonable explanation. To my friends who are trans as well.

Vulkunne wrote: »

its just weird to me because genetically speaking you are a man or woman... we cannot play God and pretend we're both.

What's with intersex conditions? People with XXY? Or genetic mosaicisms? Btw, no one is born a man or a woman. People are born male, female or intersex. Man and woman are social roles of adult humans.

tyrobia · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

"At will" doesn't mean they can fire someone for illegal reasons. There are still a small amount of reasons it's illegal to fire someone e.g. pregnancy discrimination or trans discrimination.

There's a difference between someone using their identity in a negative way to shield themselves from criticism or berate others. And a person who is the victim of actual discrimination or hate crimes, especially when that person has the receipts to prove it.

The absolute best that can be said about people who cannot tell the difference and claim anytime a minority brings up their identity it's "woke victim" blah blah is that they are so biased in their political opinion that they can no longer make out individuals.

You’re picking what seems relevant to you and trying to create a narrative that doesn’t exist. Pretty common practice nowadays.

The term woke and how it was used in regards to Leona was the first and true meaning of the word, not an Urban dictionary interpretation.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Woke being an awareness to sexism inequality.

Identity being that Leona identifies as an unequal sex.

Politics being that this is a matter of contention and discussion, with characters acting the judge.

Have you given a glance at all of the people posting about their corporate name change experiences? What did you learn?

That perhaps her experiences with the account name changing process are common and not dependent on her identity?

That people pushing this issue on our forum are culpable of pushing Woke Identity Politics?

A newly married person changing their name is not being deadnamed every time they see their old name. A dead name is a slur, and a trans person seeing their dead name every time they need to log in or otherwise interact within their work environment is being subject to a slur. It is incumbent upon the employer to do everything in their power to remove that slur as quickly as possible - anything less and it becomes intentional on the part of the employer. And no, it doesn't matter if it is usually a process that takes a lot of time to complete - if it is a slur it must be removed. If the employee were to suddenly have a racial slur in their login, for example, it would be imperative for the company to change it immediately. There wouldn't be any excuse.

Also keep in mind that Leona was forcibly outed by the company, against her will, and thus the timeline for changing her login information was not within her control.

tyrobia · July 2023

Jaraal wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Everyone has blinkers on and only sees what they want to see

Well, they certainly didn't see the exit.... or else they did, and simply decided not to get off.

The exit here is to stop caring about trans rights and that's not gonna happen, no matter how uncomfy it makes you feel.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Also no, woke was not used in the positive AAVE sense of fighting for justice. It was used in the negative, distinctly conservative version of someone using their identity as a shield to protect themselves from criticism, get special treatment, or berate others.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

People are tired of it, they are exhausted by woke identity politics. When people stop trying to create artificial reasons for why they are special compared to everyone else, they can finally open their eyes and realize we’re all just people and nobody is entitled.

So many want to watch the world burn, and tear down the things that others love. Which shouldn’t be ESO if you’re here on these forums.

thejadefalcon · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

I notice how quickly you were to post this dismissal to me, but you never bothered to call them out on it if you truly felt that sort of statement was beyond the pale. Curious, that.

Don't talk about how "gross" other people's views are if you're unwilling to make a stand against even the most blatant bigots.

There it is with that narrative again.
Weird, It’s almost as if you have an agenda.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Finally, let’s make this very clear.

If it’s determined in court that ZOS are held liable for neglect or malpractice in the workplace, you can expect the same level of defense for Faren not just from me, but from everyone.

Until then, let’s end the speculation and get back to the important things like buffing Templar.

Oh, I'm happy to admit I have an agenda. My narrative is "respect trans people, it's not that damn difficult." It's something a lot of people are failing though, both here and in the rest of the world. Apparently referring to someone by their actual name is too much effort.

Telling someone to use their dead name is offensive. I'd explain why, but since you've clearly made up your mind and, very tellingly, put it in quotation marks, I think it's very obvious that it would fall on deaf ears.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 2023

Stanx wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Man, I'm only on page three of this thread and I've already hit the apparent spam filter on reports about six times. Have to go out now, so will be back later, but it's been a pleasure reading about how trans people are "woke identity politics". Lovely crowd from the ESO playerbase, as always. Bet they're the same people who claim that the playerbase never says anything homophobic and all the abuse towards LGBT+ guilds are for totally unrelated reasons entirely.

When you use your identity and assumed uniqueness as a shield, yes, it’s called “woke identity politics” you are literally politicking around your identity.

It has nothing to do with hate speech, or ignoring real world issues, and everything to do with entitlement. Because Leona identifies as trans, she felt obligated to different standards, and when she didn’t receive those, it was because she was being discriminated for being trans.

Until we know for certain any discrimination took place specifically because her gender, it’s about worker’s rights.

Feel free to keep reporting opinions that don’t align with yours, while slinging gross allegations.

It’s a great look.

Oh please, this thread is full of people more or less showing their not so veiled opinion of the LGBTQ+. She doesn't want special treatment, she wants to be treated like anyone else, which can include things like having her name changed, which is not rare for companies to do.
As soon as people use "woke" unironically it gets hard take them seriously. It's the same as people using SJWs some years back.

Woke.

“…an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism.“

Take whatever you want serious as your opinion is inconsequential, you’re not going to deny the relevance this poses to the thread.

"When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.

And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion."

Mhmm yes, relative to the thread.

Urban dictionary is not a reliable source for information, it is user generated and it feels a bit stilted using it to try and refute a quote from a journal.

Everyone has blinkers on and only sees what they want to see, endorses what aligns with their values and this whole thread is becoming a farce.

Except in this case it is as reliable as a dictionary definition, because the word is rarely ever used as it's official definition, and the Urban dictionary is written by people of the internet and social media, who are the ones using it. The word has lost its official definition, and is now often used by so called enlightened people to toot their own horn, who are in truth just close-minded and bigoted.
Woke was about informing of prejudice and discrimination, but has now been taken up by the people it was against to endorse their indoctrination instead.

It shouldn't be difficult to people not to be a**holes.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

@thejadefalcon, since you didn’t understand it the last two times you read it, or willfully chose to ignore it, the more likely of options you chose…

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Finally, let’s make this very clear.

If it’s determined in court that ZOS are held liable for neglect or malpractice in the workplace, you can expect the same level of defense for Faren not just from me, but from everyone.

Until then, let’s end the speculation and get back to the important things like buffing Templar.

If Faren’s rights were confirmed to be violated, you would be hard pressed to find someone who didn’t support her.

Posts on the internet are not substantial evidence, neither is an audio recording of a manager that is more than likely equally irritated at the length with which it’s taking IT to set up her account.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

I notice how quickly you were to post this dismissal to me, but you never bothered to call them out on it if you truly felt that sort of statement was beyond the pale. Curious, that.

Don't talk about how "gross" other people's views are if you're unwilling to make a stand against even the most blatant bigots.

There it is with that narrative again.
Weird, It’s almost as if you have an agenda.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Finally, let’s make this very clear.

If it’s determined in court that ZOS are held liable for neglect or malpractice in the workplace, you can expect the same level of defense for Faren not just from me, but from everyone.

Until then, let’s end the speculation and get back to the important things like buffing Templar.

Oh, I'm happy to admit I have an agenda. My narrative is "respect trans people, it's not that damn difficult." It's something a lot of people are failing though, both here and in the rest of the world. Apparently referring to someone by their actual name is too much effort.

Telling someone to use their dead name is offensive. I'd explain why, but since you've clearly made up your mind and, very tellingly, put it in quotation marks, I think it's very obvious that it would fall on deaf ears.

You need to re-read the whole thread before throwing around accusations. You would find a well written explanation for why I don’t use the term “dead name” and an explanation to any of your other weird claims.

Get back to me when you’ve done your research.