Incentive to not be a Vampire or Werewolf

Fyrsa · July 2023

Right now there's little reason to not be a Vampire or a Werewolf, since Vampirism gives passive bonuses, and Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities. I love both vampire and werewolf, but what if there was some sort of benefit to remaining a mere mortal?

I think various fighter's guild passives should give minor bonuses if you aren't a werewolf or vampire yourself, particularly playing into the themes of hunting down daedric influence. These could be things as minor as slightly increased stealth detection, to improved fire / poison damage against their respective targets.

Somewhat obviously my main focus is PvP, where the two curses often come into play, but what would you think about leveling the playing field? Would werewolves need untransformed bonuses to level it out? Would we need to see a rework of the curses? I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

NordSwordnBoard · July 2023

Interesting idea, but I wonder if it results in limiting gameplay instead of expanding it. Many have asked that those two curses not be allowed to use fighter's guild skills. You could boost the damage vs. the cursed by a significant amount if one was mortal. That could be interesting. Add a bonus without taking away the existing ones sounds fine. Replacing the damage mitigation alone from undeath will be a hard case to sell to pvper's, you already know!

Vevvev · July 2023

I thought untransformed werewolves weren't effected by the bonuses inflicted by the Fighter's Guild abilities since the poison weakness only applies when they go wolf mode.

wilykcat · July 2023

Is it possible for a kahjiit who is in the Fighter's Guild to have the ability to turn into a werewolf?

Snamyap · July 2023

wilykcat wrote: »

Is it possible for a kahjiit who is in the Fighter's Guild to have the ability to turn into a werewolf?

Yes.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2023

It would be easier to just nerf Vampire and Werewolf so that their penalties balance out their bonuses, instead of having them (particularly Vampire) be overpowered.

Lumenn · July 2023

Fyrsa wrote: »

Right now there's little reason to not be a Vampire or a Werewolf, since Vampirism gives passive bonuses, and Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities. I love both vampire and werewolf, but what if there was some sort of benefit to remaining a mere mortal?

I think various fighter's guild passives should give minor bonuses if you aren't a werewolf or vampire yourself, particularly playing into the themes of hunting down daedric influence. These could be things as minor as slightly increased stealth detection, to improved fire / poison damage against their respective targets.

Somewhat obviously my main focus is PvP, where the two curses often come into play, but what would you think about leveling the playing field? Would werewolves need untransformed bonuses to level it out? Would we need to see a rework of the curses? I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

Not sure how big a change you're looking for, but I've always thought that since the person in question has been "cursed" and has now become a different being, they shouldn't have access to their racials anymore. You are no longer a high elf, you are a new creature that looks like a high elf and no longer get plus Magicka or extra dmg. Imperials would lose their resource reduction, etc etc.

And no, you are not just a race with a disease, otherwise any templar could purge it. You have to get a specific blessing to remove the effect.

It isn't a huge change, but it may make some think a bit longer.

Twig_Garlicshine · July 2023

I refuse to pvp as a diseased monstrosity.
Mortal I am, mortal I shall remain.

Fighters, Mages, Psiijic, and Undaunted guilds should all be forbidden to the monsters.
Also as above poster stated you should lose your racials, after all you betrayed your own kind to become monsters.

disintegr8 · July 2023

I've been playing since 2015 and only started the Vampirism line last week. Only did that because I got infected while questing and figured I might as well get the achievements before deciding to keep it or get rid of it.

Erickson9610 · July 2023

Fyrsa wrote: »

Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities.

This is false. If an enemy player has the Skilled Tracker passive in the Fighters Guild skill line, relative to the damage their Fighters Guild skills will do against NPCs, you will take an additional 10% damage from their Fighters Guild abilities, but only while you are transformed into werewolf form. You will not take the increased damage outside of werewolf form.

Functionally, being a werewolf is the same as being a mortal, just with an extra, completely optional skill line. You never gain any bonuses or suffer any consequences from being a werewolf if you never slot Werewolf Transformation.

thedoodle_90 · July 2023

Vampire and werewolf alrdy barely offer anything lets not go nerfing them

Twig_Garlicshine · July 2023

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

Vampire and werewolf alrdy barely offer anything lets not go nerfing them

Vamp stage 3 is the biggest crutch in Pvp.
Playing in Cyro and IC = World of Vampires.
Everyone talks about diversity of builds yet World of Vamps.
And this could be countered without a nerf....buff Mortal damage against Vamps outside of the limited choices in Fighters Guild.

Tessitura · July 2023

I dont like your solution at all. See your problem with vampire and ww also exists for fighters guild which is used on just about every single build out there right now.(I dont know about you but I am sick of Dawnbreaker and Camo hunter) So, this jut reinforces that, which is basically the same problem. The answer lies in the the skill lines themselves, not buffing other lines against one to force people not to use the other.

Side, note, WW is barely a issue, its always been a very niche play style that generally gets out performed by normal class gameplay.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

Fyrsa wrote: »

Right now there's little reason to not be a Vampire or a Werewolf, since Vampirism gives passive bonuses, and Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities. I love both vampire and werewolf, but what if there was some sort of benefit to remaining a mere mortal?

I think various fighter's guild passives should give minor bonuses if you aren't a werewolf or vampire yourself, particularly playing into the themes of hunting down daedric influence. These could be things as minor as slightly increased stealth detection, to improved fire / poison damage against their respective targets.

Somewhat obviously my main focus is PvP, where the two curses often come into play, but what would you think about leveling the playing field? Would werewolves need untransformed bonuses to level it out? Would we need to see a rework of the curses? I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

The reason to not be a vampire is to not be ugly.

Galiferno · July 2023

I am a trial tank and for a long time Vamp Drain has been meta for tanks to build ultimate quickly. Just got into PVP and vampire is meta for the Undeath passive and also for hard hitting gank builds. I don't want to be a Molag Bal'd monstrosity on any of my characters, so it'd be nice for ZOS to balance out vampire so it's nowhere near meta.

Iriidius · July 2023

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

It would be easier to just nerf Vampire and Werewolf so that their penalties balance out their bonuses, instead of having them (particularly Vampire) be overpowered.

Werewolf penalties more than balance out their boni, In mortal form they are both non existant and In werewolf form penalties are bigger than boni.

Werewolf is worse than any class with 2 bars and even worse than most classes with onebar oakensoul builds. Untransformed a werewolf has no advantages or disadvantages over mortals, werewolves practically are mortals while untransformed. A werewolf can just not slot werewolf transformation and play like a mortal. Why is it a problem If players have Lycantrophy but dont use it, they practically are mortals, there is no difference. Werewolf is just a unlockable skillline. And I think It is fine this way.
My first StamDk lost Werewolf when I resettet him using armory to change him into a Magdk, I didnt let someone bite me because I have no use for it. My second stam dk is still a werewolf, but I almost never use it since werewolf got nerfed in update 29. If there was a penalty for beeing untransformed werewolf I had to remove werewolf.
If you want to be a mortal you can do this and get neither vampire nor werewolf. Seems like many players here are already doing this.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Fyrsa wrote: »

Right now there's little reason to not be a Vampire or a Werewolf, since Vampirism gives passive bonuses, and Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities. I love both vampire and werewolf, but what if there was some sort of benefit to remaining a mere mortal?

I think various fighter's guild passives should give minor bonuses if you aren't a werewolf or vampire yourself, particularly playing into the themes of hunting down daedric influence. These could be things as minor as slightly increased stealth detection, to improved fire / poison damage against their respective targets.

Somewhat obviously my main focus is PvP, where the two curses often come into play, but what would you think about leveling the playing field? Would werewolves need untransformed bonuses to level it out? Would we need to see a rework of the curses? I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

The reason to not be a vampire is to not be ugly.

The reason not to use use vampire is to not have to feed every 4 hours. And of course you have higher skill cost and vampire dmg received. When you not feed you fall to stage 2 loosing undeath passive or stage 1 loosing extra wpn dmg from stealth while still having 5% or 3% extra skill cost and 8% or 5% more flame dmg. When you dont have to use vamp skills this is clearly worse than mortal and a reason not to be vampire.
Dawnbreaker used to give 20% extra dmg against all werewolves and vampires, however they changed it to give 20% extra dmg only to vampire and werewolve players and 10% to everyone else including mortal players to reduce number of calculations from 23 to 3.
They should increase the bonus dmg versus vampires to 30-40% and/or remove the 10% bonus dmg to mortals.

Zastrix · July 2023

Fkey wrote: »

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

Vampire and werewolf alrdy barely offer anything lets not go nerfing them

Vamp stage 3 is the biggest crutch in Pvp.
Playing in Cyro and IC = World of Vampires.
Everyone talks about diversity of builds yet World of Vamps.
And this could be countered without a nerf....buff Mortal damage against Vamps outside of the limited choices in Fighters Guild.

Not. Everything. Is. PvP.

Buff the vampire skill line and then talk about nerfing vampire passives.

Jierdanit · July 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

Vampire and werewolf alrdy barely offer anything lets not go nerfing them

Vamp stage 3 is the biggest crutch in Pvp.
Playing in Cyro and IC = World of Vampires.
Everyone talks about diversity of builds yet World of Vamps.
And this could be countered without a nerf....buff Mortal damage against Vamps outside of the limited choices in Fighters Guild.

Not. Everything. Is. PvP.

Buff the vampire skill line and then talk about nerfing vampire passives.

He specifically said that it could be done without a nerf lol, increasing mortal damage to vampires would not impact PvE at all.

Bobby_V_Rockit · July 2023

Aren’t vampires laughably weak in anything outside of PvP? Like weaker than being a mortal? More fire damage, higher skill cost, etc.

Vevvev · July 2023

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Aren’t vampires laughably weak in anything outside of PvP? Like weaker than being a mortal? More fire damage, higher skill cost, etc.

Not really, but you can't use their strongest powers in group content since it cuts off outside healing. Means if you mess up the consequences are instant death, especially in ESO with so many gotcha mechanics and one shots.
Sated Fury is a nice damage boost, and turning it off after it's been on for a bit is an infinite scaling burst heal, and then there's Blood for Blood which is completely 100% free if you have decent passive self healing in your build. On my Dragonknight I can completely and totally fund Blood for Blood with a single use of Burning Embers, and then with 2 or more uses, or an additional heal over time like Blood Mist, I could easily fund Sated Fury and Blood for Blood together in solo PvE.

The fire damage only really comes up in certain scenarios like the Vateshran Hollows' red portal, Maelstrom Arena's 2nd to last arena, dungeons like City of Ash, and other things like that. In most cases your tank is taking the hits, but in the 2 solo dungeons it could get you killed if you don't have your dodge rolling, blocking, and other game knowledge down.

TybaltKaine · July 2023

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Aren’t vampires laughably weak in anything outside of PvP? Like weaker than being a mortal? More fire damage, higher skill cost, etc.

Vampblade makes most content ridiculously easy to solo, especially if you lean into the stealthy assassin style. It makes DB and TG daily's trivial at best.

Froil · July 2023

My incentive for not being a vampire or werewolf is that I don't have to worry about increased fire damage which is very common in PvE, increased cost to my non-vampire abilities, and a need to control my vampire stage so everyone isn't all "A Vampire! Just like Twilight!" and so guards don't attack me and say "Die Monster! You don't belong in this world!". Also idgaf about ww it's boring and meh.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

Iriidius wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

It would be easier to just nerf Vampire and Werewolf so that their penalties balance out their bonuses, instead of having them (particularly Vampire) be overpowered.

Werewolf penalties more than balance out their boni, In mortal form they are both non existant and In werewolf form penalties are bigger than boni.

Werewolf is worse than any class with 2 bars and even worse than most classes with onebar oakensoul builds. Untransformed a werewolf has no advantages or disadvantages over mortals, werewolves practically are mortals while untransformed. A werewolf can just not slot werewolf transformation and play like a mortal. Why is it a problem If players have Lycantrophy but dont use it, they practically are mortals, there is no difference. Werewolf is just a unlockable skillline. And I think It is fine this way.
My first StamDk lost Werewolf when I resettet him using armory to change him into a Magdk, I didnt let someone bite me because I have no use for it. My second stam dk is still a werewolf, but I almost never use it since werewolf got nerfed in update 29. If there was a penalty for beeing untransformed werewolf I had to remove werewolf.
If you want to be a mortal you can do this and get neither vampire nor werewolf. Seems like many players here are already doing this.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Fyrsa wrote: »

Right now there's little reason to not be a Vampire or a Werewolf, since Vampirism gives passive bonuses, and Lycanthropes only downside while not transformed are a handful of fighter's guild abilities. I love both vampire and werewolf, but what if there was some sort of benefit to remaining a mere mortal?

I think various fighter's guild passives should give minor bonuses if you aren't a werewolf or vampire yourself, particularly playing into the themes of hunting down daedric influence. These could be things as minor as slightly increased stealth detection, to improved fire / poison damage against their respective targets.

Somewhat obviously my main focus is PvP, where the two curses often come into play, but what would you think about leveling the playing field? Would werewolves need untransformed bonuses to level it out? Would we need to see a rework of the curses? I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

The reason to not be a vampire is to not be ugly.

The reason not to use use vampire is to not have to feed every 4 hours. And of course you have higher skill cost and vampire dmg received. When you not feed you fall to stage 2 loosing undeath passive or stage 1 loosing extra wpn dmg from stealth while still having 5% or 3% extra skill cost and 8% or 5% more flame dmg. When you dont have to use vamp skills this is clearly worse than mortal and a reason not to be vampire.
Dawnbreaker used to give 20% extra dmg against all werewolves and vampires, however they changed it to give 20% extra dmg only to vampire and werewolve players and 10% to everyone else including mortal players to reduce number of calculations from 23 to 3.
They should increase the bonus dmg versus vampires to 30-40% and/or remove the 10% bonus dmg to mortals.

Vampire really effects looks. I have a redguard warden that's got the darkest complexion you can get in the game. If I were to make her a vampire she would become white. You basically can't have a black vampire in this game.

I make all my characters to look the part of a role. And vampire just messes that up.
I only have one vampire and she was intended to be a vampire from the start. She looks like an evil vampire sith lord.
A dunmer magicka NB.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2023

Idk about Vamp, but there are incentive to not be a Werewolf. I mean you just become straight up worse in every possible way when in WW form....