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Vamp tears and health regen - debunked
ElliottXO
✭✭✭✭✭
A lot of vampire players are complaining about the huge nerf of the cost reduction from 60 to 21%. Well here is the rational explanation why this was done:
The 75% health regen debuff is completely trivial. It's basically hardly no disadvantage. People realized fast, and realized that feeding in this game is pointless when you get a 60% cost reduction, but the only offt-rade is a 75% health regen debuff.
Take a look at my VR1 stats. In my case I have 2340 health and a health regeneration of 39, which are both close to the softcap (I have no health regen items and the DK passives are broken atm). I get 39 health every two seconds. Reduce this by 75% and you get about 10 health every two seconds. That's a difference of rounded 30 health every 2 seconds.
Now, an average encounter with a mob or player takes about 10 seconds until either you are dead, or the mob is dead if you don't use heals or potions. That's 5 ticks, multiplied with 30 health, leading to an astonishing difference of 150 health during this fight. Remember my health points are 2340!
The problem: you have x1.5 health in comparison to magicka/stamina but the regeneration is even reduced compared to magicka/stamina. To be on par with magicka/stamina regeneration the health regeneration should be x1.5 higher as well, so the softcap of 47 in my case should be at about 114 (e.g. stamina regen softcap x 1.5 = 114). But because of this current mechanic, health regeneration is far inferior to magicka and stamina regeneration. This is done so healers are not useless and so your health-bar doesn't wiggle like a duck going down and up too fast.
Additionally every class has it's own means of self-healing, while there are hardly any efficient ways to recover magicka/stamina apart from the regeneration. This makes health regeneration even less important, since you can substitute it.
Result: every vampire being in stage 4 had the huge advantage of 60% cost reduction, but only a very inferior trade-off because health regeneration is in my opinion the least important stat of the whole sheet. It was stupid not to be in stage 4. Now the advantage is small, and the trade-off is small, making at least a bit balanced.
I personally would've preferred they would've kept a high cost reduction and added fire damage taken to every stage, making the vampire a dangerous glass cannon in stage 4. This is also more according to TES lore. But I guess nobody asked me.
Cheers
The 75% health regen debuff is completely trivial. It's basically hardly no disadvantage. People realized fast, and realized that feeding in this game is pointless when you get a 60% cost reduction, but the only offt-rade is a 75% health regen debuff.
Take a look at my VR1 stats. In my case I have 2340 health and a health regeneration of 39, which are both close to the softcap (I have no health regen items and the DK passives are broken atm). I get 39 health every two seconds. Reduce this by 75% and you get about 10 health every two seconds. That's a difference of rounded 30 health every 2 seconds.
Now, an average encounter with a mob or player takes about 10 seconds until either you are dead, or the mob is dead if you don't use heals or potions. That's 5 ticks, multiplied with 30 health, leading to an astonishing difference of 150 health during this fight. Remember my health points are 2340!
The problem: you have x1.5 health in comparison to magicka/stamina but the regeneration is even reduced compared to magicka/stamina. To be on par with magicka/stamina regeneration the health regeneration should be x1.5 higher as well, so the softcap of 47 in my case should be at about 114 (e.g. stamina regen softcap x 1.5 = 114). But because of this current mechanic, health regeneration is far inferior to magicka and stamina regeneration. This is done so healers are not useless and so your health-bar doesn't wiggle like a duck going down and up too fast.
Additionally every class has it's own means of self-healing, while there are hardly any efficient ways to recover magicka/stamina apart from the regeneration. This makes health regeneration even less important, since you can substitute it.
Result: every vampire being in stage 4 had the huge advantage of 60% cost reduction, but only a very inferior trade-off because health regeneration is in my opinion the least important stat of the whole sheet. It was stupid not to be in stage 4. Now the advantage is small, and the trade-off is small, making at least a bit balanced.
I personally would've preferred they would've kept a high cost reduction and added fire damage taken to every stage, making the vampire a dangerous glass cannon in stage 4. This is also more according to TES lore. But I guess nobody asked me.
Cheers
5
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Three things to point out:
1) Vampires also get 50% more damage from Fire
2) Vampires are also easy pray for those speced in to Fighters guild skills.
3) Cost reduction is applied ONLY TO VAMPIRE SKILLS.
Now get those above in your equations. Bring on the table the enchant slots that you miss because you have to get fire enchants on those and then tell me how OP are vamps.3 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭Out of combat you either need to take a potion or sit there for a while because your health regen is very slow. There are negative drawbacks to it, but there are positive ones depending on what you find more important. However the 50% fire damage is already severe enough to warrant being able to mist yourself away from fire since people can SPAM fire abilities like there's no tomorrow. Drain only has once use per enemy and is easily broken out of in PVP. Shield-bash needs a serious nerf (even though I know how to deal with it personally, but I also have a special PVP setup... still every other person spamming it is a bit silly), not Vamp abilities. The exploit was the problem, and that is thanks to Sorcs and DK's who are on deck for nerfing.Edited by ThisOnePosts on May 6, 2014 5:50PM1 -
ElliottXO✭✭✭✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Three things to point out:
1) Vampires also get 50% more damage from Fire
2) Vampires are also easy pray for those speced in to Fighters guild skills.
3) Cost reduction is applied ONLY TO VAMPIRE SKILLS.
Now get those above in your equations. Bring on the table the enchant slots that you miss because you have to get fire enchants on those and then tell me how OP are vamps.
Additional skill line. Increased stam/magicka regen. Increased damage reduction. Sneak bonus.
It has nothing to do with my equation. The question is 21% cost reduction vs. 75% health regen debuff or "why should vampires feed at all when you give them 60% cost reduction with a minor debuff?"
I know the cost reduction applies only to vamp skills. Now answer the question for yourself.Edited by ElliottXO on May 6, 2014 5:54PM0 -
Wanted: Vampire Hunters.
Anybody up for farming vampires in Cyrodiil?
Oops, wrong thread. Sorry.2 -
When vampires cry, the fourms bleed.|----Cometh' at me bro'eth.--- Aldmeri Dominion NA, Veteran,----|
| -~Bug reporter extraordinaire-~|1 -
ElliottXO✭✭✭✭✭im.ferociousub17_ESO wrote: »Out of combat you either need to take a potion or sit there for a while because your health regen is very slow. There are negative drawbacks to it, but there are positive ones depending on what you find more important. However the 50% fire damage is already severe enough to warrant being able to mist yourself away from fire since people can SPAM fire abilities like there's no tomorrow. Drain only has once use per enemy and is easily broken out of in PVP. Shield-bash needs a serious nerf (even though I know how to deal with it personally, but I also have a special PVP setup... still every other person spamming it is a bit silly), not Vamp abilities. The exploit was the problem, and that is thanks to Sorcs and DK's who are on deck for nerfing.
This thread here is about balancing stage 1 versus stage 4, not about fire damage.
a) does the health regen debuff even apply out of combat?
b) why don't you use your magicka to restore your health out of combat?
Health regen is the least important stat, until somebody brings a valid argument to me why another stat from the stat sheet is even less important.0 -
ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Three things to point out:
1) Vampires also get 50% more damage from Fire
2) Vampires are also easy pray for those speced in to Fighters guild skills.
3) Cost reduction is applied ONLY TO VAMPIRE SKILLS.
Now get those above in your equations. Bring on the table the enchant slots that you miss because you have to get fire enchants on those and then tell me how OP are vamps.
Additional skill line. Increased stam/magicka. Increased damage reduction. Sneak bonus.
It has nothing to do with my equation. The question is 21% cost reduction vs. 75% health regen debuff or "why should vampires feed at all when you give them 60% cost reduction with a minor debuff?"
I know the cost reduction applies only to vamp skills. Now answer the question for yourself.
Increased magica and stamina regen by 10% = 5 more magica regen and 6 more stamina regen when using YOUR sheet posted above. This is less than what you can get out of enchantment slot.
Increased damage reduction when you fall under certain % HP and DO NOT WORK at all at the moment.
The sneak bonus do not work for me or atleast is so minor I never saw any difference...
More skills but still ONLY 5 slots + 1 ultimate per weapon swap. So you give up some other abilities to get those so it's already trade off. No point to include those in the equation at all.
If your point is why should a vamp ever feed - they can work with the fire debuff. 10% at stage 1 and increase to 50% at stage 4. Keep the 20% cost reduction per stage and the health reduction as it is. Get each stage to change at 1 hour as currently for 30 minutes you might or you might not even finish one dungeon
Edit: Typos...Edited by ShadowOfOblivion on May 6, 2014 6:01PM0 -
ElliottXO✭✭✭✭✭ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »Three things to point out:
1) Vampires also get 50% more damage from Fire
2) Vampires are also easy pray for those speced in to Fighters guild skills.
3) Cost reduction is applied ONLY TO VAMPIRE SKILLS.
Now get those above in your equations. Bring on the table the enchant slots that you miss because you have to get fire enchants on those and then tell me how OP are vamps.
Additional skill line. Increased stam/magicka. Increased damage reduction. Sneak bonus.
It has nothing to do with my equation. The question is 21% cost reduction vs. 75% health regen debuff or "why should vampires feed at all when you give them 60% cost reduction with a minor debuff?"
I know the cost reduction applies only to vamp skills. Now answer the question for yourself.
Increased magica and stamina regen by 10% = 5 more magica regen and 6 more stamina regen when using YOUR sheet posted above. This is less than what you can get out of enchantment slot.
Increased damage reduction when you fall under certain % HP and DO NOT WORK at all at the moment.
The sneak bonus do not work for me or atleast is so minor I never saw any difference...
More skills but still ONLY 5 slots + 1 ultimate per weapon swap. So you give up some other abilities to get those so it's already trade off. No point to include those in the equation at all.
If your point is why should a vamp ever feed - they can work with the fire debuff. 10% at stage 1 and increase to 50% at stage 4. Keep the 20% cost reduction per stage and the health reduction as it is. Get each stage to change at 1 hour as currently for 30 minutes you might or you might not even finish one dungeon
Edit: Typos...
This thread has nothing to do with the other vampire pros/cons. It's about balancing stage 1 vs stage 4. And it's also not about broken skills.
I'm glad that you understood the point in your last block, yet I don't agree with the scaling though. However, these are opinions.
I simply wanted to address the crying about "OMG from 60% to 21% but health regeneration debuff still at 75%!!!!1111". It's because health regeneration is crap.Edited by ElliottXO on May 6, 2014 6:07PM1 -
squshy7✭✭✭...you do realize those numbers are in combat, right? So, you know that nice bit of health you regen out of combat...well no, you don't because you don't worry about it. But try experiencing 75% reduced health regen OOC. It completely changes the dynamic of how you play. How many players just leap off the postern walls rather than find the door? Well, most of them, because the 400ish damage inflicted is tiny compared to how quickly it comes back. Not as a vamp...
Being a NB vampire at stage 4 is kind of like being a drug addict. I, and many others, blow through so many potions just to heal OOC health it's ridiculous. I go through...maybe 20-30 tri resource potions every hour in pvp? And half of those are for restoring OOC health. That's insane when you really think about it.
Also, your argument is flawed in that you base it around short, 1v1 battles (you also make the claim about every class being able to heal themselves, but let's not go there with NBs...please). That's the definition of a one sided point of view. What about a keep defense? Let's just take a short one, around 10 min. You'll have regen'ed your health bar 10 times, as your regen perfectly matches your health bar on a per minute basis (your 39 health/tick equals 2340 health per min). As a vamp? Well, that's 6k HP. So you mean tell me, that it's not a difference, and that it's trivial, that in a basic keep defense, you regen your health bar 10 times over, while I regen mine 2.5? Is that not an extra burden on healers? Is that not a burden on my stock of potions?Edited by squshy7 on May 6, 2014 6:15PMIn order of conception:
Castnia Ashwind VR14 Nightblade; original Day 1 Vampire, bloodfiends, not bought. You're probably in my family tree.
Jul'eh Kaleh VR14 Templar
Lysnta Ashwind VR14 Sorcerer
Awaken2 -
ElliottXO✭✭✭✭✭...you do realize those numbers are in combat, right? So, you know that nice bit of health you regen out of combat...well no, you don't because you don't worry about it. But try experiencing 75% reduced health regen OOC. It completely changes the dynamic of how you play. How many players just leap off the postern walls rather than find the door? Well, most of them, because the 400ish damage inflicted is tiny compared to how quickly it comes back. Not as a vamp...
Being a NB vampire at stage 4 is kind of like being a drug addict. I, and many others, blow through so many potions just to heal OOC health it's ridiculous. I go through...maybe 20-30 tri resource potions every hour in pvp? And half of those are for restoring OOC health. That's insane when you really think about it.
Also, your argument is flawed in that you base it around short, 1v1 battles (you also make the claim about every class being able to heal themselves, but let's not go there with NBs...please). That's the definition of a one sided point of view. What about a keep defense? Let's just take a short one, around 10 min. You'll have regen'ed your health bar 10 times, as your regen perfectly matches your health bar on a per minute basis (your 39 health/tick equals 2340 health per min). As a vamp? Well, that's 6k HP. So you mean tell me, that it's not a difference, and that it's trivial, that in a basic keep defense, you regen your health bar 10 times over, while I regen mine 2.5? Is that not an extra burden on healers? Is that not a burden on my stock of potions?
a) most classes can use some form of self heal even without enemy, or resto staff swapable
b) there are healers very often in big encounters, the health regen is nothing compared to what a healer busts out
c) why did you and all other serious PvP vamps go for stage 4 if it's such a big debuff?
Remember young padawan: there is magicka for heals. It will be fully charged and waiting a long time for your health if you don't use it.Edited by ElliottXO on May 6, 2014 6:23PM1 -
AlliN✭✭✭Out of combat you either need to take a potion or sit there for a while because your health regen is very slow.
Oooor, you can feed, and get your hp regen back.
You know, mechanic designed to be a vamprie thing.
Tell me please, why you don't feed dear vampires? Roleplaying?0 -
Dominulf✭✭✭Your horse is hungry.The Elder Scrolls Online - Where the best spells are AoEs and the strongest weapon is a Shield!
"I used to be the most beloved roleplaying series of a generation... but then I took $14.99/mo to the knee."0 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭Making them take +100% fire damage at stage four and shutting off all regen in direct sunlight is what it should be IMO.
That would balance the fact that I have capped magicka regen because of vamp, a cheap heal, super speed sneak, armor reduction, a tank mist form (taunts + mist form = lol) and powerful ult heal.
What do WW get in comparison? Slightly faster ult and a DPS form that dies like a punk? What do people get? Oh, nothing. Vamps should have drawbacks that are as large as their advantages.
Edited by SunfireKnight86 on May 6, 2014 6:53PM2 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭Tell me please, why you don't feed dear vampires? Roleplaying?
Because they'd lose the bonuses from being in stage 4. Oh wait, they have to make a choice now and assess the trade-off between being in stage 1 and being able to regen health or being in stage 4 and getting those bonuses… <waaah>.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO1 -
Bolo_Bob✭✭✭^ make all vamps and WW characters perma die when turned, because the advantages should be worth the disadvantage.
also delete fighters guild skills because they OP vs the perma dead vamps and WW's.Edited by Bolo_Bob on May 6, 2014 6:58PM2 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭.
Being a NB vampire at stage 4 is kind of like being a drug addict. I, and many others, blow through so many potions just to heal OOC health it's ridiculous. I go through...maybe 20-30 tri resource potions every hour in pvp? And half of those are for restoring OOC health. That's insane when you really think about it.
Don't be a vampire then. Problem solved.
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How many players just leap off the postern walls rather than find the door? Well, most of them, because the 400ish damage inflicted is tiny compared to how quickly it comes back. Not as a vamp...
interesting point actually...
how about if vampires gained resistance to fall damage? it would fit with their general being. they could escape where non-vampires couldn't follow so easily.0 -
awkwarrd✭✭✭Oh look.. a DK explaining the Vampire situation..
*resists urge to post every video ever taken of a vampire killing 30 ppl at a time.. and surprisingly noticed all of the vampires were actually DK's with broken exploitable skills*0 -
nickackub17_ESOSoul ShrivenMy question has the op even played as a vampire if not this post is not valid lol and trust me 75% is a big disadvantage especially when people are attacking you with fire. I get the feeling a lot of people on this forum think vampire are gods when they have not even PLAYED AS ONEsteveb16_ESO46 wrote: »Edited by nickackub17_ESO on May 6, 2014 7:48PM0
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Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭'Vamp tears' are the best tears...rofl
I'm a werewolf... so bite me (pun intended)
Edited by Phantax on May 6, 2014 8:13PMHigh Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !0 -
ElliottXO✭✭✭✭✭nickackub17_ESO wrote: »My question has the op even played as a vampire if not this post is not valid lol and trust me 75% is a big disadvantage especially when people are attacking you with fire. I get the feeling a lot of people on this forum think vampire are gods when they have not even PLAYED AS ONEsteveb16_ESO46 wrote: »
Man. You guys here are really serious right? You come here, brag all about how terrible the health regen debuff is, and yet everyone was running around in stage 4.
Ever thought of feeding? Oh no you don't want to lose the 60% cost reduction.
Please. Enlighten me. Why was everyone in stage 4?Edited by ElliottXO on May 6, 2014 8:12PM0 -
nickackub17_ESO wrote: »My question has the op even played as a vampire if not this post is not valid lol and trust me 75% is a big disadvantage especially when people are attacking you with fire. I get the feeling a lot of people on this forum think vampire are gods when they have not even PLAYED AS ONEsteveb16_ESO46 wrote: »
Man. You guys here are really serious right? You come here, brag all about how terrible the health regen debuff is, and yet everyone was running around in stage 4.
Ever thought of feeding? Oh no you don't want to lose the 60% cost reduction.
Please. Enlighten me. Why was everyone in stage 4?
I personally made my built around that and one of the reasons is that to stay in stage 1 you have to feed every 30 minutes. If they made it 1 or 2 hours then more people would consider this as it is annoying to feed that often (I am better of going out of stealth with a heavy attack that have guaranteed crit...).
Plus you get the main debuff the +50% fire dmg at all stages. Might as well take it whole and get the most benefits out of it.
Not everybody is PvP abuser, not everybody is RPer, some pople like to be different (or expected to be when opting for being a vamp), some people made their builds around something and some are a bit lazy and can't bother to feed:)0 -
Liquid_Time✭✭✭✭✭All funny. I just want my speedy mist : :'(¸.•¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` Liquid_Time'*-.¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-••¤
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IGN: Liquid Past || Rank: V14 || Class: Nightblade || World Skill: Vampire
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Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not trivial at all. It's quite noticeable when questing if you're going around at rank 1 compared to rank 4. It's even more noticable to nightblades who do not have the same luxuries dragonknights and sorcerers have. So you didn't actually debunk anything.Edited by Arsenic_Touch on May 6, 2014 9:28PM☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB0
