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Telvanni Peninsula World Design Critique (No bonelords? Seriously?)

OgrimTitan
OgrimTitan
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While developers by now probably opening champagne, seeing how well received this chapter was by new and old players both, I must add some unpleasant observations. In some way I feel reluctant to start the discussion as I do like this chapter and all the new implementations of it, but at the same time I see a problem of underdeveloped design which must not be ignored. There will be a lot of pictures (for those of you who don't like to read).

First of all - Necrom and it's assets are great. The location, the layout, the furniture, the unnatural rocks and sigils on them. A perfect example on how to perfectly recreate something from the collective imagination which some of us fueled for 15-20 years now.
wxneveny07vj.png

The Apocrypha is also great, but it's not a subject of discussion here.

What is NOT great, however, is the zone Necrom surrounded by. On many levels of world design. Let's explore them.
1. It's way too much like a Vvardenfell. Preparing for this post I've spent some hours capturing all the Morrowind zones in the game to draw a comparison.

Stonefalls and Deshaan are poor man's Morrowind - they combine attributes of Morrowind from TES III, but in lesser quantity (less flora types, less fauna types, less architectural styles, less fractions). But there is NO WAY you mix up those 2 zones, EVEN with them using 1 insipid architectural style. Let's take a look.

Stonefalls:
u8jq7g8wfc9l.png
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Deshaan:
mn4du4vjw8ra.png
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Now let's have a look on Telvanni Peninsula and Vvardenfell. I've devised a little game mixing up the pictures of both locations so you can try to guess for yourself which is which. Some are harder to guess, some are easier. Sad to think that most likely even the game designers themselves will have a trouble distinguish the 2 zones:
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q4qba0cffon0.png
hal7ipjbge21.png
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2. No new creatures for the zone. Zero. 0. Yes, I'm aware of mind terrors, and they are terrific, BUT they are from Apocrypha side of the Chapter (and even there they are the foreigners from another plan(et), let's say). No new weird insect or reptile or a new thing entirely for our dear Morrowind is sad. But what puzzles me is why we didn't get the undead specific for dunmeri. Aren't dunmeri like their ancestral tombs and undead guardians? And isn't it the chapter about the whole damn city-wide-ancestral-tomb of the whole Morrowind? So how, prey tell, we wound up having 0 bonelords? Or bonewalkers? It's not like they are not-unique-enough, too unsavory or too generic. So how? I have no reasonable explanation whatsoever.
Some pictures of aforementioned creatures from TES III concept art:
h34h01qgq88t.jpg
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3. Copying the style of Vvardenfell makes it less unique. While some parts of the zone look more or less fresh thanks to the 3 new mushroom trees and bigger mushroom tree density than anywhere else, the general look has very Vvardenfell-ish impression, which hurts both zones. Telvanni Peninsula and Vvardenfell could both now be considered weaker versions of each other, depending from what point you look. From my point of view it could've been easily avoided with making their new mushroom trees more prevalent and bigger than shrooms from Vvardenfell. Was it saved for Firewatch area which was scrapped with year story model? Questions, questions.

In any way, is this really a good design philosophy, to copy all the assets of a previous zone, add a bit more diversity and call it a day? Will it become a norm, as long as there is a class you can forget yourself in, or other important change, unlike card game inclusion/companions? Say what you will about High isle/Blackwood years, but despite their irrelevant (or low relevant) gameplay additions all their assets were unique, and they added a lot of new creatures. High Isle/Firesong added 6 new I could think of, 7 if you count humanoid spriggans.

To end on a good note I'll leave some good Telvanni Peninsula (also, this was said a hundred times, but this name is so tragically uninspired) screenshots:
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Edited by OgrimTitan on June 8, 2023 8:04PM
  • MerguezMan
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    Hi there,

    1) Telvanni Peninsula is part of Morrowind. Giant mushrooms at seaside are expected there.
    Plus it's northeast of Tamriel, and does look like the local vegetation we know.
    It may break the chart to have more swampy or tropical assets there...

    2) As for TES3, zombies were supposed to be affected by corprus, so a byproduct of blight.
    Regular undeads were limited to skeletons, bonelords, bonewalkers, and ghosts.
    As far as I remember, bonelords were a magic-wielder variant of skeletons, and bonewalkers a non-blight-related zombie type.
    In ESO there are skeletons, skeletal animals, bone colossus, litches, ghosts, and more forms of zombies, with variants in models.
    That being said, the lack of new creatures/monsters is disappointing indeed.

    3) ... speaking about Blackwood's assets being unique ... eh ... sorry, but aside from Daedric towers (which were strangely absent from the Cyrodiil zone, compared to TES4, btw), most of the assets are a rematch of argonians and imperial zones (Cyrodiil, Gold coast, Shadowfen and Murkmire). I do agree High isle has way more specific assets.
    Where your critique seems to fall short, is that you don't tell a word about Apocrypha, which is included in this very same chapter, and does not use that much assets from previous zones... I guess so far, that ZOS' design philosophy is not "copy-paste and call it a day" as you seem to say.
    Does each forest, rock or tree have to look unique in the game ?
    I've not played Necrom yet (console...), but from the pictures, I already see a few new mushroom models.

    My guess is that the design team considered the Telvanni peninsula should look and feel familiar (for Tamriel), so the shifting from there to Apocrypha would be more striking, and the daedric realm would feel more otherwordly and surprising. Double-edge of the sword, the peninsula does not feel that new and surprising as a result, aside from Necrom city.

    Makes sense, maybe ?
  • OgrimTitan
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    MerguezMan wrote: »

    3) ... speaking about Blackwood's assets being unique ... eh ... sorry, but aside from Daedric towers (which were strangely absent from the Cyrodiil zone, compared to TES4, btw), most of the assets are a rematch of argonians and imperial zones (Cyrodiil, Gold coast, Shadowfen and Murkmire). I do agree High isle has way more specific assets.
    Where your critique seems to fall short, is that you don't tell a word about Apocrypha, which is included in this very same chapter, and does not use that much assets from previous zones... I guess so far, that ZOS' design philosophy is not "copy-paste and call it a day" as you seem to say.
    Does each forest, rock or tree have to look unique in the game ?
    I've not played Necrom yet (console...), but from the pictures, I already see a few new mushroom models.

    My guess is that the design team considered the Telvanni peninsula should look and feel familiar (for Tamriel), so the shifting from there to Apocrypha would be more striking, and the daedric realm would feel more otherwordly and surprising. Double-edge of the sword, the peninsula does not feel that new and surprising as a result, aside from Necrom city.

    Makes sense, maybe ?

    First - thank you for your response.

    We're not talking Apocypha here. I believe I mentioned it in the opening post? It's an another thing entirely and one I have no problem with. Everything there seem to be great, I'll say yet again. Although, on the other hand, there is not even a single new Apocrypha daedra.

    Blackwood area does bring the new assets, Leyawiin ones first (which are amazing), and Deadlands ones second (amazing, too). Those a completely new to the game and ALSO mostly look distinct/more rich to TES IV versions. As for daedric towers in Blackwood (actually it's capsules, I think their position looking crashed on earth gave it away if the form/look didn't) I never really understood a complaint of adding/removing locations from established countries/areas.

    The "real" versions of those lands contain hundreds of cities, thousands of villages, millions of physical things we don't see. Do you presume the books we have in games are ALL the books this world has? Or plants? Or animals? Come on.

    In any way, if we're to rigorously pursue grotesquely shrinked version of Blackwood presented in the early game, daedric structures are made from creatia, unstable and volatile chaos matter which tend to dissipate or not dissipate, so here you go, if you're a "sticking to 20 established in games locations only" type.

    Back to an original topic: again, I've mentioned 3 new mushroom tree types, and no, it's not enough to make the zone look fresh. I hoped it would be enough to make Peninsula look unique, I hoped the new mushroom trees to be dominant compared to the old ones, or that Vvardenfell shroom trees are only prevalent to the Vvardenfell shore, or that there are different subregions with different flora prevalence.. It wasn't the case. But don't trust me and go see it for yourself when you can.
    Edited by OgrimTitan on June 10, 2023 8:45AM
  • wolfie1.0.
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    OgrimTitan wrote: »
    MerguezMan wrote: »

    3) ... speaking about Blackwood's assets being unique ... eh ... sorry, but aside from Daedric towers (which were strangely absent from the Cyrodiil zone, compared to TES4, btw), most of the assets are a rematch of argonians and imperial zones (Cyrodiil, Gold coast, Shadowfen and Murkmire). I do agree High isle has way more specific assets.
    Where your critique seems to fall short, is that you don't tell a word about Apocrypha, which is included in this very same chapter, and does not use that much assets from previous zones... I guess so far, that ZOS' design philosophy is not "copy-paste and call it a day" as you seem to say.
    Does each forest, rock or tree have to look unique in the game ?
    I've not played Necrom yet (console...), but from the pictures, I already see a few new mushroom models.

    My guess is that the design team considered the Telvanni peninsula should look and feel familiar (for Tamriel), so the shifting from there to Apocrypha would be more striking, and the daedric realm would feel more otherwordly and surprising. Double-edge of the sword, the peninsula does not feel that new and surprising as a result, aside from Necrom city.

    Makes sense, maybe ?

    First - thank you for your response.

    We're not talking Apocypha here. I believe I mentioned it in the opening post? It's an another thing entirely and one I have no problem with. Everything there seem to be great, I'll say yet again. Although, on the other hand, there is not even a single new Apocrypha daedra.

    Blackwood area does bring the new assets, Leyawiin ones first (which are amazing), and Deadlands ones second (amazing, too). Those a completely new to the game and ALSO mostly look distinct/more rich to TES IV versions. As for daedric towers in Blackwood (actually it's capsules, I think their position looking crashed on earth gave it away if the form/look didn't) I never really understood a complaint of adding/removing locations from established countries/areas.

    The "real" versions of those lands contain hundreds of cities, thousands of villages, millions of physical things we don't see. Do you presume the books we have in games are ALL the books this world has? Or plants? Or animals? Come on.

    In any way, if we're to rigorously pursue grotesquely shrinked version of Blackwood presented in the early game, daedric structures are made from creatia, unstable and volatile chaos matter which tend to dissipate or not dissipate, so here you go, if you're an adept of "sticking to 20 established in games locations only" type.

    Back to an original topic: again, I've mentioned 3 new mushroom tree types, and no, it's not enough to make the zone look fresh. I hope it would be enough to make Peninsula look unique, I hoped the new mushroom trees would be dominant compared to the old ones, or those Vvardenfell trees are only prevalent to the Vvardenfell shore, or that there are different subregions with different flora prevalence.. It wasn't the case. But don't trust me and go see it for yourself when you can.

    I feel it's disingenuous to factor in black woods deadlands and leave out apocrypha in your evaluation of the chapters area design.

    Because to me Blackwood was bland for a pve zone. There are areas where you can go quite a bit of space before you see enemies or even interesting assets. Necrom at least feels a bit more populated.
  • Hurbster
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    Should not the opposite apply? Vvardenfell is more like Stonefalls and Deshaan. After all it is before Red Mountain kicked off in Morrowind. A big selling point at the time was us getting to look at Vvardenfell without all the ash.
    Edited by Hurbster on June 8, 2023 2:45PM
    So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.
  • thedocbwarren
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    Have not tried the new area as of yet but I would expect things to look similar. That said, I admit Blackwood looks like an empty expanse, along with some of High Isle. I was a bit shocked on how empty some of those are. I can't say as to why this is but there is a change in the "focus." Perhaps, dev attention is diverted with recent DLCs and chapters. Maybe there is a lot of other work happening so don't want to suggest it's lack of work. As a developer myself, not every story picked up has visual impact and thus might go unnoticed.

    All that said, I'm not finding I enjoy the game less and appreciate it is still maintained and having new content. Couple things I wish we would see is: some QoL updates (flashing, bad spinning stuff on new class, etc.) and streaming platform for every PC/Tablet platform (that does not use console servers.)
    Edited by thedocbwarren on June 8, 2023 3:48PM
  • emilyhyoyeon
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    Completely agree. I actually think the lower Telvanni Peninsula looks more distinct from Vvardenfell than I originally expected--I thought it was going to be 100% reused assets apart from Necrom--but it's still left a lot to be desired IMO.

    I feel like the most important thing they could've done is make one new mushroom type to stand in for the huge ones. Like, imagine if the tall yellow/orange ones were replaced with the new pink ones and made into the same, huge size. That alone would do wonders for making the scenery easily recognizable. Why reuse the asset that's one of the most notable parts of the scenery?

    More sizes and more of the green one in general would've helped, too.
    IGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller
    Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & scholar of the ayleids

    High Priest Eraamine as a houseguest please C:
  • OgrimTitan
    OgrimTitan
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    Completely agree. I actually think the lower Telvanni Peninsula looks more distinct from Vvardenfell than I originally expected--I thought it was going to be 100% reused assets apart from Necrom--but it's still left a lot to be desired IMO.

    I feel like the most important thing they could've done is make one new mushroom type to stand in for the huge ones. Like, imagine if the tall yellow/orange ones were replaced with the new pink ones and made into the same, huge size. That alone would do wonders for making the scenery easily recognizable. Why reuse the asset that's one of the most notable parts of the scenery?

    More sizes and more of the green one in general would've helped, too.

    Yes, that's what I proposed in opening post, too. Just swapping sizes of old and new mushroom trees would've made wonders.

    Still that would've left outrageous lack of bonewalkers and bonelords problem.
  • morrowjen
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    Hurbster wrote: »
    Should not the opposite apply? Vvardenfell is more like Stonefalls and Deshaan. After all it is before Red Mountain kicked off in Morrowind. A big selling point at the time was us getting to look at Vvardenfell without all the ash.

    Which is nice. I think they do a good job within the confines of ESO. But ESO aesthetic is bright and happy and way too different from Morrowind's to really capture the alienness of Vvardenfell and especially the Telvanni Penninsula. They would have to change too much and likely add some unfriendly (bandwidth wise) changes to get the look perfect. But within the constraints of an MMO that has already chosen an aesthetic it looks great.
  • licenturion
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    As someone who completed the main campaign and map progress bars (delves, dungeons etc). I think that 85 percent of the work went into Apocrypha. There are really a lot unique environments and encounters and tons of new assets. Even the Bastion events is a whole dungeon.

    Counting the fact that the designers had to design new animations for the new class there probably wasn’t much resources left for landscape around Necrom.

    In fact we got 2 zones at once. Usually we get one unique zone with an expansion with the copy/paste zone as free DLC (Galen, Blackreach etc)

    I have been playing with Reshaders for so long that I was a bit shocked of the screenshot. Telvani looks like a vibrant fantasy world from a Pixar movie in my own game 😄
    Edited by licenturion on June 8, 2023 11:40PM
  • kaushad
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    This is a problem with most chapters: there isn’t enough for the scope of the zone. They skip over settlements, subcultures, conveniently mountainous regions, wildlife etc. In this case, the chapter is about 2/3 Apocrypha, 1/3 Telvanni fan service AND Necrom. The Q4 chapters do better at this, because they put a greater proportion of new concept work into a smaller area, but we aren’t getting those now.

    I considered a Telvanni peninsula zone (the actual peninsula as opposed this) to be ideal for a chapter, because they already have a lot of lore and their mainland holdings were described as sparsely populated anyway. But that isn’t allowing for Apoocrypha.

    Personally, I’d rather like a zone that uses more Stonefalls/Deshaan assets. Apart from the glaring replacement of House Indoril, I prefer their natural colour palettes to Vvardenfell/here. All those peach mushroom look rather earthy. Maybe the central mainland zones have fewer polygons, but they’re vibrant.
    MerguezMan wrote: »
    2) As for TES3, zombies were supposed to be affected by corprus, so a byproduct of blight.
    Regular undeads were limited to skeletons, bonelords, bonewalkers, and ghosts.
    As far as I remember, bonelords were a magic-wielder variant of skeletons, and bonewalkers a non-blight-related zombie type.
    In ESO there are skeletons, skeletal animals, bone colossus, litches, ghosts, and more forms of zombies, with variants in models.
    That being said, the lack of new creatures/monsters is disappointing indeed.

    You’re thinking of corprus monsters. Bonewalkers and bonelords were spirit and flesh/bone hybrid revenants. ESO could adequately use existing assets for them, but between Necrom and Telvanni, this is the ideal DLC for new models. Telvanni guards in TESIII even knew how to summon bonewalkers, which was handy because greater bonewalkers could cast crippling destructive spells.
  • Dr_Con
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    I, too, wish for the necropolises I visit to be lavish and for bonelords and other necromantic abominations to be roaming near an ancient order of monks dedicated to putting the dead to rest. It really screams "We are incompetent, please do our jobs and save us from ourselves!"
  • TaSheen
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    I really liked what little I saw of Necrom (because I just popped the new arcanists there, then moved them to Vivec City - I won't be playing this chapter for a while, cant't stand mob scenes while questing), but I don't have much opinion on a relationship to TES3.

    That's because TES3 is the only one of the single player games I didn't spend hundreds to thousands of hours in, and the only one I never finished. I only spent about 50 hours playing it, then put it away as I don't really have much use for Dunmer, Morrowind, Great Houses, the Morag Tong (or the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild in any of the games).

    I don't even remember about bonelords etc. *shrug*
    ______________________________________________________

    "But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West

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  • Paulytnz
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    What, no new frogs? That one dev must be sitting in a corner angry and crying at the same time....
    Edited by Paulytnz on June 10, 2023 10:26AM
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