kargen27 wrote: »

These situations are why I advocate for a dungeon not being done if everything doesn't die. Or maybe 98% of all mobs and 100% of bosses/mini-bosses for those times when one or two enemies get stuck and can't be hit. If a player is going to get rewarded for the content they should do the content.

If you skip three skeletons that hang out in a little enclave because it is five steps out of your way then you don't get credit for finishing the dungeon. And to take care of players chasing weapons drops the last boss shouldn't activate until everything else in the dungeon is dead. It should just have an impervious shield until you get everything else done. If that means running back to the start to kill a few skeever then so be it.

no dungeon completion rewards for not completing the dungeon... seems like a no-brainer.

EDIT: I was convinced that this is no solution. indeed, people can enter random dungeons with a pre-made group if they want something specific (not random, like with random group members). everything else would just reduce freedom. it´s not like there´s no other way to make sure everything / every boss is killed and the whole group participates. it doesn´t need to be with random people who just want their reward, though.

Kusto wrote: »

You can blame the reward system for that. Random normals give one of the best rewards in game while being one of the easiest activities. Makes no sense. 100k xp and 10 transmutes for 5min speed run. But you do vet dlc pledge hard modes and only get 3 lol. Same with trials, WEEKLY coffer only gives 5, but it takes alot longer to do and even longer to get group together, wtf. Battlegrounds, hit and miss, sometimes you get lucky and get few, sometimes nothing. So no wonder everyone's doing dungeons. Endgamers need alot of gear and most are able to easily solo them, even dlc. Zos really needs to rework the rewards so they are more inline with the difficulty and time it takes to get them. For example if random vet gave 20 transmutes I would run them instead.

You seem to (intentionally?) omit the fact that the main reward for pledges is NOT the transmutes but the undaunted keys.

Soarora wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

Understood. But when you leave enough trash in the path and others can't break through it then they are the ones who can't finish at all.

Roll dodge...

Try that on a tank.

I roll dodge through trash all the time. In fact, I do it every time to get to the other side so the ones aggro’d on me will have their flank to the DPS.

Which has next to nothing to do with what was discussed. Rolling once in combat when other people /behind you/ damage these mobs -- vs having to /run/, roll, and break free from ccs being constantly tossed at you by a dozen waves of mobs to keep up with speedrunners. All in heavy armor that penalizes both your speed and stamina.

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

Understood. But when you leave enough trash in the path and others can't break through it then they are the ones who can't finish at all.

Roll dodge...

Try that on a tank.

I roll dodge through trash all the time. In fact, I do it every time to get to the other side so the ones aggro’d on me will have their flank to the DPS.

Which has next to nothing to do with what was discussed. Rolling once in combat when other people /behind you/ damage these mobs -- vs having to /run/, roll, and break free from ccs being constantly tossed at you by a dozen waves of mobs to keep up with speedrunners. All in heavy armor that penalizes both your speed and stamina.

Can use CP to help mitigate that, or use a sorc. Or just wait until they reach a boss and you'll get teleported to them, except in a select few dungeons.

Sarannah wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

Understood. But when you leave enough trash in the path and others can't break through it then they are the ones who can't finish at all.

Roll dodge...

Try that on a tank.

I roll dodge through trash all the time. In fact, I do it every time to get to the other side so the ones aggro’d on me will have their flank to the DPS.

Giulietta wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

These situations are why I advocate for a dungeon not being done if everything doesn't die. Or maybe 98% of all mobs and 100% of bosses/mini-bosses for those times when one or two enemies get stuck and can't be hit. If a player is going to get rewarded for the content they should do the content.

If you skip three skeletons that hang out in a little enclave because it is five steps out of your way then you don't get credit for finishing the dungeon. And to take care of players chasing weapons drops the last boss shouldn't activate until everything else in the dungeon is dead. It should just have an impervious shield until you get everything else done. If that means running back to the start to kill a few skeever then so be it.

no dungeon completion rewards for not completing the dungeon... seems like a no-brainer.

Absolutely not. You can’t skip if you want to get ND/SR, that’s good enough. Have you been to MHK, where there’s a trash pack behind a door that’s out of the way? Or MoS, where trash is literally everywhere to the point that you’ll miss some even when you’re trying to get them all? Or GD, where you have to go out of your way for a trash pack? Or RoM where there’s not only lots of trash, but deadly trash? Need I go on? If that were implemented I wouldn’t care about finishing dungeons I would just leave once I’m done. Or start quitting when it’s an “unwanted” dungeon, something I’ve not done before. You want to kill all trash? You tank or find a tank that’ll pull all the trash.

What’s next, are we gonna start saying OPTIONAL bosses should be made required? I’m perfectly happy killing everything if someone needs SR/ND but there is no way in heck I’m going to kill everything in every dungeon in every run. Waste of my time.

Well, ZOS could simply make the dungeon completion rewards/final boss drops require all main road trash mobs and all main bosses to be killed. Requiring everything to die would be impossible, as that would cause failed runs. But requiring all main mobs/bosses to be killed for the dungeon completion/final boss drop rewards would be fine. (This also excludes optional bosses like the ones in newer dungeons)

I find it strange that these veteran players who speedrun/fake role all say normal dungeons are too easy, and that everything dies in one second. Yet, they do not perform that one second of damage, nor do they go to higher content. They rather ruin the run for three other players.

Like I said before, in my opinion speedrunners/fake role players have no place being in group/MMO content. And ZOS should remove those 'options'.

PS: As a tank, I can most of the time keep up with speedrunners(and taunt everything in my path so the other players can too).... but isn't it strange that ZOS does nothing to stop the speedrunning playstyle, but would rather hinder the players playing the actual tank role with those heavy armor passives. /facepalm (remove those damn passives!)

Yeah, I'd be fine if it's just the normal trash that's usually killed that has to be killed. I only do the run through/die strat for guild farm runs. I do wish people would just go to vet. Everyone runs in vet. Normal is for newbies and casuals, shouldn't be rushed through. This is funny, maybe sad, but I've actually built my tank to be fast. Don't have people pulling before me when I get there before them ahaha.

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

Understood. But when you leave enough trash in the path and others can't break through it then they are the ones who can't finish at all.

Roll dodge...

Try that on a tank.

I roll dodge through trash all the time. In fact, I do it every time to get to the other side so the ones aggro’d on me will have their flank to the DPS.

Which has next to nothing to do with what was discussed. Rolling once in combat when other people /behind you/ damage these mobs -- vs having to /run/, roll, and break free from ccs being constantly tossed at you by a dozen waves of mobs to keep up with speedrunners. All in heavy armor that penalizes both your speed and stamina.

Can use CP to help mitigate that, or use a sorc. Or just wait until they reach a boss and you'll get teleported to them, except in a select few dungeons.

So you are LITERALLY saying "only run PUG/RNDs on builds tailored to speedrunners".

Let us be reasonable and realistic here. It doesn't cost much to slot celerity CP and expedition (which is on dk chains and sorc major resolve source anyways) and we can have these threads all we want but speedrunning is never actually going to stop. So, yes. Help yourself rather than wait to be helped because that help will never come.

Edit: To add, I would like to inform you if I haven't said this in the thread already, I use bracing anchor. I use celerity CP and expedition and I get ahead of most speedrunners by doing so, drastically cutting down on people pulling before me. I am in heavy armor too. Full heavy. I can do it, so can you. Free yourself from the annoyances.

kargen27 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

There is something you can do, form your own group with a set of expectations.

Especially in this situation, where you joined their group already in progress. You should be expected to conform to their approach for the dungeon. Which was to not waste time on useless add pulls.

Works both ways. Most of the day you can type in guild chat looking to fill group for random speed run and get your group really quick. Much harder to fill a group when you say you have the quest and want to finish entire dungeon.

Sounds like OP didn't join a group in progress. He joined a group where one member didn't wait for others to get ported in and ran ahead past mobs. Often players who do this are partially built on being able to sprint past mobs. Some builds can't do this and fail to keep up. They then have the added annoyance of dealing with all the mobs the speed runner riled up on his way through.
No pull is useless. You gain XP, gold and items from these pulls. For new players or players on new characters these pulls help. Sure if all you want is the end run reward it seems the pulls are useless but they are not. They just aren't part of your desired outcome. Doesn't mean others should have to suffer missing out on their desired outcome.

As I said above a fix for this would be requiring everything die on the way through.

That would be unreasonable. Everything Dragon Bones DLC and after requires all adds for the achievements, and when they started that they also started moving some of the add packs off the garden path so that it isnt quite as linear as those prior. A group looking for a vMoS SR/ND or Apex Predator needs to find and kill all of them. Thats part of the additional challenge added for those who want to chase them. If you just want a monster helm, hard mode, pledge, or random, you can safely ignore them. Theyre designed that way.

Earlier dungeons, even DLC, are more of a "follow this path" nature. Its an interesting design choice, but it adds something to the game this way.

Even if they did want to implement something like this they would need to fix the dungeons first. There's a Cultist that spawns in the cave roof in CoS. You may not ever even see it without damage numbers turned on. You'll just notice that youre stuck in combat. Most dungeons now have mobs that don't aggro. Again, unless you have ran them numerous times you may not even see them to know theyre there.

Totally disagree that players who want to run dungeons, like every other MMO provides, should start finding their own groups. And therefor I feel ZOS needs to fix this. Expecting to get exp and loot in a (random) dungeon is not too much to expect!! And with exp I mean exp from kills, not everyone just wants the goodies at the end. And with loot I mean drops from boss and trash mobs, not everyone just wants the goodies at the end. Expecting to random a dungeon and get loot and exp while doing so, is not too much to be expected. The way it is now, is totally messed up(didn't want to curse). And needs to be fixed by ZOS ASAP! What is an MMO without any meaningful MMO parts!?! There is a reason why other MMO's make the dungeon experience a good one, so players stay with the game and can actually enjoy that part of the game as well.

This problem is going to extremely prevalent when Necrom launches. Because many players will be going for the exp and loot from dungeons(and quests). While at the same time, one speedrunner will deny them this. And that is totally messed up(didn't want to curse)!

Speedrunners and fake role players have no place in an MMO/groupsetting. They are only in that dungeon for selfish reasons, and do not care about the other players in there. So ZOS allowing them to be there in the way they are, is wrong.

I can't believe some players are actually defending putting three others through a horrible horrible dungeon experience, while denying them exp and loot. And even worse, that some players keep doing this to other players. And even more worse, that ZOS is letting this go on for so long. For me, the MMO part of the game is totally dead right now. And I am probably not the only one thinking so.

The MMO part of the game needs to be fixed ASAP, if the game wants to have any hope for growth in the future.

PS: There is a major difference between running a dungeon normally fast while killing all mobs/bosses, and between speedrunning it while skipping every mob/boss on the way to the end. Not going speedrunner fast does not mean slow.

Sarannah wrote: »

Totally disagree that players who want to run dungeons, like every other MMO provides, should start finding their own groups. And therefor I feel ZOS needs to fix this. Expecting to get exp and loot in a (random) dungeon is not too much to expect!! And with exp I mean exp from kills, not everyone just wants the goodies at the end. And with loot I mean drops from boss and trash mobs, not everyone just wants the goodies at the end. Expecting to random a dungeon and get loot and exp while doing so, is not too much to be expected. The way it is now, is totally messed up(didn't want to curse). And needs to be fixed by ZOS ASAP! What is an MMO without any meaningful MMO parts!?! There is a reason why other MMO's make the dungeon experience a good one, so players stay with the game and can actually enjoy that part of the game as well.

You are talking about rewards here, I was talking about the activity itself and the necessity to preserve the freedom within it at all cost. Implementing a rule which forces us to kill every single mob just to ensure that another player is enjoying his ride is out of the question.
You said it for yourself: The rewards are the problem here, so the problem is to be solved there. Eso is the only mmo I know where a veteran player gets more reward out of a normal run than by doing vet (where he belongs imo). Adapt the rewards, remove transmutes entirely from dungeons if necessary (put them at world bosses for example, first one gives 20 a day. Doesn't matter anymore at this point). But forcing others to play a special way so someones can have his will is not the way to do it. Not in eso, not in any other mmo.

Sarannah wrote: »

This problem is going to extremely prevalent when Necrom launches. Because many players will be going for the exp and loot from dungeons(and quests). While at the same time, one speedrunner will deny them this. And that is totally messed up(didn't want to curse)!

Again you are in principle saying: "I'm doing my dungeons for my reward. Nobody has the right to interrupt that." A complete fail and in no way better than the speedrunner, you despise so much, is doing.

Sarannah wrote: »

Speedrunners and fake role players have no place in an MMO/groupsetting. They are only in that dungeon for selfish reasons, and do not care about the other players in there. So ZOS allowing them to be there in the way they are, is wrong.

I played a lot of different mmo over the years and met speedrunners in every single one of them. As for the "fake" role players I have no idea what you're talking about. There were numerous discussions already that only showed one thing in the end: People can't say exactly if a player is fulfilling his role or not. So the tank which is taunting the boss while burning him down on a dps build is considered fake, cause his role is support (not by definiton btw, that's a thing quite exclusive to eso again), but the dd who isn't pulling the necessary numbers for a clear of course is not. Laughable.

The only sort of player which has no place in group content are people which refuse to communicate and adapt to the group but insist solely on their personal goals and experience.

Sarannah wrote: »

I can't believe some players are actually defending putting three others through a horrible horrible dungeon experience, while denying them exp and loot. And even worse, that some players keep doing this to other players. And even more worse, that ZOS is letting this go on for so long. For me, the MMO part of the game is totally dead right now. And I am probably not the only one thinking so.

Who is defending this? A single player can't force his will to three others in this game, just kick him and it's done.

Sarannah wrote: »

The MMO part of the game needs to be fixed ASAP, if the game wants to have any hope for growth in the future.

PS: There is a major difference between running a dungeon normally fast whille killing all mobs/bosses, and between speedrunning it while skipping every mob/boss on the way to the end. Not going speedrunner fast does not mean slow.

PS: Yes, there is a major difference between fast and speedrunning. Believe me or not, I personally despise speedrunning that much, that I never queue without a premade group. Some reward at the end is simply not why I'm in there in the first place and I can't enjoy a dungeon while I actively try to avoid it. But punishment fantasies like "you have to kill off every single mob" aren't a solution for this problem. You're just decreasing players this way, drastically. Remove the reward, put it somewhere else and it's done.

PPS: I would personally vote for increasing rewards for doing veteran content to resolve the current situation. But that would only start the next discussion, how unfair that would be, wouldn't it?

Sarannah wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Speedrunners and fake role players have no place in an MMO/groupsetting. They are only in that dungeon for selfish reasons, and do not care about the other players in there. So ZOS allowing them to be there in the way they are, is wrong.

I played a lot of different mmo over the years and met speedrunners in every single one of them. As for the "fake" role players I have no idea what you're talking about. There were numerous discussions already that only showed one thing in the end: People can't say exactly if a player is fulfilling his role or not. So the tank which is taunting the boss while burning him down on a dps build is considered fake, cause his role is support (not by definiton btw, that's a thing quite exclusive to eso again), but the dd who isn't pulling the necessary numbers for a clear of course is not. Laughable.

The only sort of player which has no place in group content are people which refuse to communicate and adapt to the group but insist solely on their personal goals and experience.

Don't want to turn this thread into an argument, so I am just going to say I disagree with you and respond to these two things. My experience with other MMO's is vastly different. Those are usually on-rails, and have a magical barrier behind each boss, which is only passable when that boss dies. Also, there is no adapting or communication when someone just sprints off and doesn't kill anything. So to me, those players do not belong in groupcontent. (Note: Bosses in other MMO's also do enough damage to wipe the group in seconds, so in those games it is impossible to just run passed them)

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I can't believe some players are actually defending putting three others through a horrible horrible dungeon experience, while denying them exp and loot. And even worse, that some players keep doing this to other players. And even more worse, that ZOS is letting this go on for so long. For me, the MMO part of the game is totally dead right now. And I am probably not the only one thinking so.

Who is defending this? A single player can't force his will to three others in this game, just kick him and it's done.

We can't kick speedrunners. As when nothing dies, you can't start a vote to kick. We cannot kick players during combat, and speedrunners keep us in combat 100% of the time. This is exactly one of the main problems, one player holding three others basically hostage with nothing they can do about it.

PS: I would love it if we would never end up in dungeons/pvp with any character from accounts on our ignore list ever again. The way other games do. That way I could actually start ignoring speedrunners, and not have to deal with them ever again. (Note: This would still not solve the issue for new players)

Well, didn't know about the problems with the kicking feature. That has to be changed of course, so that kicking is also possible during a fight then. I also agree with you that nobody should be forced to play with someone he put on ignore. I could also imagine an obligate readycheck for all players present in group before the first door of the dungeon can be opened (for dungeons where isn't such a door, it could be implemented quick) to enforce communication. Combined with a resturctured reward system like I suggested above the problem should be solved rather quick.

I also have no love for speedrunners which refuse to do their killing (indeed I get quite salty when I see them running around in delves with half of the dungeon on the toes), but there are that many other solutions to solve this problem (I named just a few) other than forcing all players to do dungeons in a certain way, that there is no necessity to kill off freedom of choice and enjoyment for all of us.

If the group is willing to kill an optional boss (not to mention trash here, where some players demanded an 98% (!) elimination for clear) like the spriggan in eldenhollow 1, the broodmother in fungal 1 or the ratking in wayrest 1 (just to name a few of the earlier ones) is for the group to decide. It always has been this way, even in the beginning when we all had to go there in premades simply because there wasn't a groupfinder yet.

derkaiserliche wrote: »

As a tank I really hate players that ignore mobs on the way to the boss and just run to them directly without any further team communication.

A good speed is of course always welcome but never act like you are the only one in the dungeon.

Agree. But sometimes I prefer those style in normal dungeon run.

Because, If you're over CP1K tank, then you can taunt more than 30 mobs at once.
It's not so dangerous. If your DPS is decent player, they'll kill it so easily.
It's super first and easy.