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1.0.7 ruined the vampire PVE dynamic.

Phinix1
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The latest changes in patch 1.0.7 have pretty well ruined the vampire dynamic for me as a PVE player.

For one thing I like to heal dungeons, and my build used a combination of the heavy armor Immovable buff and my vampire stage to reduce the cost of Drain Essence, to save magic for heals while also protecting myself against heal aggro and things that would come to beat on me.

This is no longer viable I am finding, as the insane nerf to ability cost reduction has me OOM before most large AOE pulls are finished.

Stage 2:
From 20% to 7% vampire ability cost reduction.
Same 25% health regen reduction.

Stage 3:
From 40% to 14% vampire ability cost reduction.
Same 50% health regen reduction.

Stage 5:
From 60% to 21% vampire ability cost reduction.
Same 75% health regen reduction.

So I have to go to stage four and suffer a 75% reduction in health regen just to get the near useless 20% vampire specific ability cost reduction that I used to get in stage two, for what? Because some d-bags in PVP were exploiting something completely unrelated?

So instead of doing something practical, like changing the way abilities work in PVP zones or against other players, they decide to take the lazy quick path and ruin the play style for legitimate players.

If ZOS wanted to be modern about it and not just another MMO company that ruins PVE because they are too lazy to balance PVP for the whiners separate from the way abilities work against non-players and in non-PVP zones, they would have simply made the reduction not apply to ultimate, or apply less to ultimate.

This feels more like they just phoned in some wrist slap "OK, people are crying about PVP exploits? Lets wreck the play style in question and get back to the cocktails and steel drums."

Bat Swarm should never have stacked with itself that is true, yet the ability to still be healed while in mist form which was the real problem to begin with still hasn't been addressed as far as I can tell. Nevermind the legitamate bugs like passives ceasing to function on death, or Drain Essence not activating half the time or doing so with a 1-2 second lag.

But what the hell is the purpose of this movement speed nerf to Mist Form other than to just be rude?

The vampire ability cost reduction nerf makes vampire stages essentially pointless and a penalty rather than a trait that makes the play style unique. As a PVE player, I loved that aspect of the game. I have mods installed to track my stage so I know when I need to feed to update my buff to keep it where I want it based on the situation.

You took something that gave the class a unique feel and experience and turned it into little more than a cosmetic gimmick and a health regen penalty, all to NOT fix half the problems in PVP that should be handled completely separate from the way things work in PVE.

Yeah, this patch is almost as big a disappointment to me as the army of bots.

EDIT for semantics.
Edited by Phinix1 on May 6, 2014 7:23AM
  • tilolyen_ESO
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    Well said....now only IF they would allow a FREE respec for those Vamps that wasted points in the MIST line. However I would not hold my breathe on the free respec.....
    Edited by tilolyen_ESO on May 6, 2014 6:57AM
  • Jarnhand
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    It was needed to be fixed/ adjusted, it was game breaking. How much better it is I do not know, not gone live in Europa yet (patching now).

    They generally need to fix all skills for all classes. Then rebalance for PvE. If it is 'broken' (not just 'not as powerful as before'), it will get adjusted later.

    Sorry, but right now they had to do something, PvP was dying due to vamp abuse/exploiting.
  • Arsenic_Touch
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    It shouldn't have been reduced so drastically. The ultimate stacking was the issue and they fixed that but they decided to take a hammer to the rest of the skill line just to shut the whiners up not thinking about how bugged the rest of the skills are and how terrible it is for pve with these bugs.
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  • Phinix1
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    Jarnhand wrote: »
    It was needed... PvP was dying due to vamp abuse/exploiting.

    Yeah, but if you understand why it was a problem in PVP, you would see that this brutal nerf didn't address the underlying problem.

    The biggest problem in PVP is that if you hit bat swarm before going mist you can still regen health even though mist is supposed to prevent that, since the bat swarm is an absorb and not a heal. So you can get the 75% damage reduction while you are being healed and doing damage.

    This nerf did nothing to fix that.

    They should have reduced the vampire stage ability cost reduction for ultimate only, and addressed the above mentioned real problem in PVP. But ONLY in PVP zones!

    This ruining PVE dynamics that make the game fun to balance for PVP twitch BS has got to stop! It is 100% developer laziness to avoid having to modify the way skills work separately in PVP zones and PVE zones, against players and non-players.

    The mist form speed nerf and ability cost nerf for non-ultimate abilities was not only unnecessary and rude, but did not address the problem. It was in fact, terribly premature and lazy on their part.
    Edited by Phinix1 on May 6, 2014 7:08AM
  • mungoeb17_ESO
    mungoeb17_ESO
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    Agree. I really dont care about pvp other than its something else to do when you have been questing or done dungeons for hours.

    Im worried they gonne nerf shield bash and block next.
    And why? Because the skill is a little op in a 10 sec fight in pvp?
  • nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO
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    Vamps have definitely gone more toward "rogue" builds rather than caster builds. You use mana for vamps powers and stamina for combat then you are fine but otherwise....
  • Spiritreaver_ESO
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    @the OP, just want to clear up one thing: Vampirism isn't a class. Its a skill line in TESO. I really think that mindset more than anything is why they rushed some vampire changes through and why i don't think they are done yet.

    Another thing, i think that changes in the Vampirism skill line in TESO are being done to bring it back in line with how it was portrayed in other TES games-as a curse with some benefits but quite a few downsides. I've had access to the vampire skill line since official launch day and i have actually been waiting on these changes to hit.
  • Phinix1
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    So why even have a vampire skill line then? Why not just make NPC's with those "lore friendly" abilities and forget about adding something unique and immersive to the game, if you are just going to rip it away and ruin it the first time some something goes wrong in PVP and you are too damn lazy to change the way skills work separately in PVP and PVE zones to balance things out?

    EDIT: Sorry for being overly frustrated by this, but this issue really irks me. It is what ruined PVE for me in other games as well. Instead of taking the 10% more time to make skills work differently in PVP vs. PVE, they make blanket changes that wreck PVE dynamics to cater to PVP FOTM exploits.

    I mean how hard would that be in a game like this where there are no PVP servers?

    IF (in cyrodiil) AND (Ability X), do this.

    IF (not in cyrodiil) AND (Ability X), do that.

    IF (target is player) AND (Ability Y), do this.

    IF (target is not player) AND (Ability Y), do this.

    Jesus just efing shoot me!
    Edited by Phinix1 on May 6, 2014 7:14AM
  • Zazar
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    @the OP, just want to clear up one thing: Vampirism isn't a class. Its a skill line in TESO. I really think that mindset more than anything is why they rushed some vampire changes through and why i don't think they are done yet.

    Another thing, i think that changes in the Vampirism skill line in TESO are being done to bring it back in line with how it was portrayed in other TES games-as a curse with some benefits but quite a few downsides. I've had access to the vampire skill line since official launch day and i have actually been waiting on these changes to hit.

    Totally agree with it. @AlienDiplomat, you're speaking as if it was your entire class. But no sir, it's just a "bonus" skill line which needs to get in line with other skill lines.
    Edited by Zazar on May 6, 2014 7:18AM
  • Phinix1
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    OK, can we not niggle semantics here please? What difference does it make if you call it a class or a skill line. Yes, it is a skill line, I simply misspoke.

    That doesn't change the fact these nerfs were heavy handed, lazy, and didn't even address the main problem in PVP.
  • ElSlayer
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    60% of ability cost reduction is... kinda fat, don't you think so?
    At cost of HEALTH REGEN - oh, what an important stat!

    Want to get additional skill line? Have a fire resistance penalty.
    Want to use these skills at slightly lesser cost? Have an unimportant stat penalty.
    Don't like it? Pay gold and get cured.

    Human beings just don't like when someone takes away things they ALREADY GOT.
    If such numbers (20% reduction on stage 4) be here from the beginning, you would take it like "Oh, okay, I can live with that"
    But you've already tasted that 60% reduction and now you think that you can't live without it. But you surely can.
    @d0e1ow: There is no singular thing within a game's little ecosystem that will convince you that you hate the game, hate your life, and hate everyone around you faster than the game's official forums will.

    @TaffyIX: Life is too short to get upset by a video game.
  • Zazar
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    OK, can we not niggle semantics here please? What difference does it make if you call it a class or a skill line. Yes, it is a skill line, I simply misspoke.

    That doesn't change the fact these nerfs were heavy handed, lazy, and didn't even address the main problem in PVP.

    I agree that you can find it lazy, but it was the only way. This game wasn't designed to be 80% populated by Vampires. Admit that it was completely broken.

    Moreover, they addressed PvP's issues.
    Edited by Zazar on May 6, 2014 7:26AM
  • Loxy37
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    While it did need to be fixed in PvP, it didn't in PvE! Why the hell do they always nerf because the PvP crown start whining because they get beat! I don't PvP at all so it didn't effect me but these changes sure will! I think that companies should learn instead of 2 steps forward and 3 back. Why couldn't they just nerf it in PvP? Or even disable vamps and wolves in PvP and then the problem would have been solved but of course the PvP crowd would really cry! I wouldn't mind but PvP has always been a side dish in most MMOs with the minority doing PvP.
    Edited by Loxy37 on May 6, 2014 7:27AM
  • Phinix1
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    ElSlayer wrote: »
    Human beings just don't like when someone takes away things they ALREADY GOT.

    Thank you for your psychological insights, but the fact remains these nerfs didn't address the main underlying problem people were exploiting with mist form health regeneration.

    Try playing as a cloth wearing caster without access to fire resist enchanted jewelry and with the cooldown on heal potions and tell me again how a 75% health reduction penalty is trivial.
    Zazar wrote: »
    I agree that you can find it lazy, but it was the only way. This game wasn't designed to be 80% populated by Vampires. Admit that it was completely broken.

    Moreover, they addressed PvP's issues.

    It was NOT the only way. I already gave several suggestions how they could have done it more professionally.

    1) Have the ability cost reduction not apply to Ultimate.
    2) Have abilities work differently in PVP zones vs PVE.

    It did NOT address the issue in PVP being exploited, where vamps could use Bat Swarm before Mist and get healed WHILE gaining the 75% damage reduction AND doing damage.
    Edited by Phinix1 on May 6, 2014 7:29AM
  • Zazar
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    Loxy37 wrote: »
    While it did need to be fixed in PvP, it didn't in PvE! Why the hell do they always nerf because the PvP crown start whining because they get beat! I don't PvP at all so it didn't effect me but these changes sure will! I think that companies should learn instead of 2 steps forward and 3 back. Why couldn't they just nerf it in PvP? Or even disable vamps and wolves in PvP and then the problem would have been solved but of course the PvP crowd would really cry!

    Or, they could have nerfed both PvE & PvP Vampires, but of course the PvE crowd would really cry!

    Oh wait....
  • emailgosurwb17_ESO
    OP, you are right. But they are not only ruining PvE with this patch, they are also ruining vampires PvP.

    I never abused that ultimate and many people did not do it too. They were supposed to edit vampires ultimate and mist/blink. But instead they made stage 5 useless.

    By the way, some of vampires passives are not working at all.
  • whykillme
    whykillme
    It killed PVP so it had to be nerfed. Maybe they can make it like the nerf only applies in cyrodill..
  • ElliottXO
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    Health regeneration debuff is trivial. Do the math and stop crying.
  • Phinix1
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    ElliottXO wrote: »
    Health regeneration debuff is trivial. Do the math and stop crying.

    Please take un-constructive comments like this to a thread where anyone cares.

  • Cepeza
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    Just one single vamp nerf whine on forums so far? I am a little bit disappointed.
  • Dramonicous
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    The nerf should had been to simply remove the ability to stack ultimate reduction cost items. This nerf along with every other nerf they have made so far directly damages all the other players that are playing the game as intended.

    That being said, and know im on your side... you will never ever see this vampire nerf get changed into something reasonable. Everyone will hate you when you cry about it they will call you a pvp exploiter even if you never used it like that or even played any pvp at all. Thats the world we live in, full of people that are too stupid to understand anything.

    I expect more over the top nerfs will be coming in this game.
    Devs caving in to massive forum spam and just make a quick fix solution instead of gradually nerfing it.

    Next up: Likely to be Crystal Fragments.
    I mean really? Did you sorcs expect to have spammable execution dps?
    Say hello to 300 dps no knockdown, rather than 800 dps + knockdown.
  • xMovingTarget
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    Sorry, but you cant complain about the changes. This fix was mandatory. It was absolutely broken.
    To be a vampire should not mean to be god. And for what it stands now, you lil Edwards are still more powerful than werewolfs.

    I am sorry you got your WinButton cut down. This patch ruined nothing for being a Vampire. You still can Heal-suck in combat and get away with that Mist Cloud.

    +1 Zenimax, now get Werewolf on par !
  • Zazar
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    The nerf should had been to simply remove the ability to stack ultimate reduction cost items. This nerf along with every other nerf they have made so far directly damages all the other players that are playing the game as intended.

    That being said, and know im on your side... you will never ever see this vampire nerf get changed into something reasonable. Everyone will hate you when you cry about it they will call you a pvp exploiter even if you never used it like that or even played any pvp at all. Thats the world we live in, full of people that are too stupid to understand anything.

    I expect more over the top nerfs will be coming in this game.
    Devs caving in to massive forum spam and just make a quick fix solution instead of gradually nerfing it.

    Next up: Likely to be Crystal Fragments.
    I mean really? Did you sorcs expect to have spammable execution dps?
    Say hello to 300 dps no knockdown, rather than 800 dps + knockdown.

    Umad. :)
    Edited by Zazar on May 6, 2014 7:40AM
  • Tavore1138
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    If a single skill line is such that players have to build their entire play style around it and go into much emo-ness when it receives some scaling down then it is probably a safe bet that it has been somewhat broken.

    I can't, offhand, think of any other skill line on which people are so dependent and would cause so much misery if it got scaled back.
  • bugulu
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    What they should have done is to remove ultimate spell reduction.
    Spell cost reduction should affect spells and skills, not ultimates.

    Vampires were never the sole problem. It's the synergy with how ultimate cost reduction, coupled with Mist Form, Dragon Knights Battle Roar and a simple immunity to knockdown effects that caused the issues.
    How often did you see a vampire nightblade obliterate a whole zerg by themselves?
    Edited by bugulu on May 6, 2014 7:44AM
  • Phinix1
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    Zazar wrote: »
    Umad. :)

    Get out of my thread, troll.

  • Zazar
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    Zazar wrote: »
    Umad. :)

    Get out of my thread, troll.

    Can't sir, I like you guys trying to argue on something that won't change now.
  • Draconiuos
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    ElliottXO wrote: »
    Health regeneration debuff is trivial. Do the math and stop crying.

    Please take un-constructive comments like this to a thread where anyone cares.

    Why don't you take your unconstructive thread and shove it some where. I am tired of hearing the crying on both sides of the freaking Vampire issue. Go try Werewolf for a bit and then come back and tell me Vampire is a waste in its current state. I bet the werewolves would give up 75% health regen for a passive that reduces their ult by 20%.
  • Phinix1
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    Sorry, but you cant complain about the changes. This fix was mandatory. It was absolutely broken.
    To be a vampire should not mean to be god. And for what it stands now, you lil Edwards are still more powerful than werewolfs.

    I am sorry you got your WinButton cut down. This patch ruined nothing for being a Vampire. You still can Heal-suck in combat and get away with that Mist Cloud.

    +1 Zenimax, now get Werewolf on par !

    And I am sorry, but you are running your mouth without having the slightest idea what you are talking about.

    What needed to be fixed, hmm? Do you even know? No, you don't, you are just spouting jingoism to troll something you don't have any knowledge of because it is easier than thinking for yourself.

    If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would know that the problem of using Bat Swarm and Mist together to negate the no healing of Mist and get 75% damage reduction WHILE healing AND damaging was NOT fixed by this at all.

    Also, how does having the magic cost of one or two abilities on my bar reduced at the cost of massive health regeneration reduction make me godlike? Also for all those saying 75% health regen is trivial, how about you give it a try? Even out of combat, it makes 25% of your health take a minute to regenerate.
    Next up: Likely to be Crystal Fragments.
    I mean really? Did you sorcs expect to have spammable execution dps?
    Say hello to 300 dps no knockdown, rather than 800 dps + knockdown.

    Better yet, how about we take a "play what you like, how you like" game and reduce every class to light/heavy attack spam with different color sparkles. After all, being able to do ANYTHING unique might be considered godlike and overpowered.
  • emailgosurwb17_ESO
    Zazar wrote: »
    Zazar wrote: »
    Umad. :)

    Get out of my thread, troll.

    Can't sir, I like you guys trying to argue on something that won't change now.

    You are right, this wont change now. Now we have to stay stage 1 always.

    This is sad, even now some people think that if you are a vamp, you abused an ultimate bug.


    Fixes that they are doing are pretty childish, they should think of hiring somebody with balancing experience.
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