Health Recovery Inconsistency and Viability

twing1_ · April 2021

TL;DR

In order to boost health recovery's viability in all types of content across all builds and to simultaneously resolve the current inconsistencies found within the stat across a large number of obtainable sources, bonuses to health recovery should be valued at exactly 3x the value of bonuses to either stamina or magicka recovery, as is consistent with the 5 pc bonus of Beekeeper's Gear and Endurance Set's 3 pc bonus. In order to accomplish this, 2 things must be done:
1. Base health recovery on the character stat sheet should be increased from 309 health recovery to 1,542 health recovery, totaling to exactly 3x the base stamina or magicka recovery on the character stat sheet (514)
2. 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery should be increased from 129 health recovery to 387 health recovery, totaling to exactly 3x the 2-4 pc item set bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery (129)

Problem:
With the recent inclusion of health recovery into Battle Spirit's healing debuff, health recovery as a stat has become underwhelming in both PvE and also PvP, where it once used to excel. This was a warranted change, as health recovery builds were a constant topic of being overly powered in comparison to more active forms of healing in PvP. However, the severity of its reduction in PvP has rendered the stat near useless, as builds capitalizing off of health recovery now require a far greater investment and net a much smaller return than other sources of healing, like healing proc sets.

In addition to the question of health recovery's viability as a stat in general, bonuses to health recovery are being valued very inconsistently from a number of different obtainable sources. Here are a few examples:

2-4 pc item set bonuses value a stat bonus to health recovery at 129 health recovery, and equal to bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery
5 pc item set bonuses value a stat bonus to health recovery at 387 health recovery, and exactly 3x the value of bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery (derived from beekeeper's gear*)
Unique 3 pc item set bonuses value a stat bonus to health recovery at 387 health recovery, and exactly 3x the value of bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery (derived from endurance set**)
Base character recovery values health recovery at 77 health recovery, and far less than the value of stamina or magicka recovery (309 base health recovery vs. 514 base stamina and magicka recovery)

*MATH

Unconditional 5 pc bonuses to character stats are currently valued at ~2.32x a single 2-4 pc item set bonus, as seen in the 5 pc bonuses of the Hunding's Rage, Law of Julianos, Leviathan, Mother's Sorrow, and other similar sets. To double check this, just divide their 5 pc stat bonus by their corresponding 2-4 pc bonus.

Hunding's Rage/Law of Julianos as example:
5 pc bonus: 300 damage
2-4 pc bonus to damage: 129 damage
300/129 = 2.3256

Leviathan/Mother's Sorrow as example:
5 pc bonus: 1528 critical rating
2-4 pc bonus to critical rating: 657
1528/627 = 2.3257

All sets that grant an unconditional 5 pc bonus to raw character stats follow this ratio, except for Beekeeper's gear.

Beekeeper's Gear:
5 pc bonus: 900 health recovery
2-4 pc bonus to health recovery: 129
900/129 = 6.9767

This value of 6.9767 is inconsistent to all other unconditional 5 pc bonuses to raw character stats, which value 5 pc bonuses at ~2.32x their corresponding 2-4 pc item set bonus.

This value of 6.9767 is also exactly 3x the value of 5 pc bonuses that is consistent to all other sets in the game, ~2.32.
6.9767/3 = 2.3255

Tripling the regular 2-4 pc bonus of 129 health recovery to the value of 387 health recovery would resolve this inconsistency, and bring the 5 pc bonus of Beekeeper's Gear more in line with similar sets.
900/387 = 2.3255

**MATH

For unique 3 pc sets, unconditional 3 pc bonuses to character stats are currently valued at ~1.59x a single 2-4 pc item set bonus, as seen in the 3 pc bonuses of the Agility Set and Willpower Sets. To double check this, just divide their 3 pc stat bonus by their corresponding 2-4 pc bonus.

Agility/Willpower Set as example:
3 pc bonus: 206 damage
2-4 pc bonus to damage: 129 damage
206/129 = 1.5969

All unique 3 pc sets that grant an unconditional 3 pc bonus to raw character stats follow this ratio, except for Endurance Set.

Endurance Set:
3 pc bonus: 618 health recovery
2-4 pc bonus to health recovery: 129
618/129 = 4.7907

This value of 4.7907 is inconsistent to all other unique 3 pc bonuses to raw character stats, which value 3 pc bonuses at ~1.59x their corresponding 2-4 pc item set bonus.

This value of 4.7907 is also exactly 3x the value of all of the other unique 3 pc bonuses in the game, which clock in at ~1.59.
4.7907/3 = 1.5969

Tripling the regular 2-4 pc bonus of 129 health recovery to the value of 387 health recovery would resolve this inconsistency, and bring the 3 pc bonus of the Endurance Set more in line with similar sets.
618/387 = 1.5969

Solution:
Bonuses to health recovery should be made more available to player characters, and the relative value of bonuses to health recovery should be made consistent across all obtainable sources.

Proposal:
Stat bonuses to health recovery should be valued at exactly 3x the value of bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery, as is consistent with the current 5 pc bonus of Beekeeper's Gear and the 3 pc bonus of the Endurance Set. This would apply to all sources of health recovery, including regular 2-4 pc item set bonuses and base character health recovery on the stat sheet. In order to achieve this, the following must be done:

2-4 pc item set bonuses should be adjusted from 129 health recovery to 387 health recovery (exactly 3x the 2-4 pc item set bonuses to stamina or magicka recovery of 129)
Base character health recovery should be adjusted from 309 health recovery to 1,542 health recovery (exactly 3x the base character stamina or magicka recovery of 514)
5 pc bonus from beekeeper's is unchanged
3 pc bonus from endurance is unchanged

There are a few other adjustments that must be made, such as to the Steed mundus stone, but due to differing conditions, the analysis isn't as clean-cut as it is with these outlined above. I analyze those in greater detail in this post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562332/stat-bonuses-to-health-recovery-are-inconsistent#latest

Effect:
By making the changes to the health recovery stat outlined above, players will be given greater access to stacking health recovery, particularly at the base level (where base health recovery would be raised from the measly 309 value to a formidable 1,542), which should boost its viability in both PvE and PvP environments. Additionally, making the proposed adjustments would bring consistency to the values of health recovery being granted from different sources, as is consistent with all other stats in the game. These changes would result in a greater overall game balance, as consistency is the key to balance.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Great analysis about some of the issues with the various Integer sources of HP Regen.

twing1_ wrote: »

Solution:
Bonuses to health recovery should be made more available to player characters, and the relative value of bonuses to health recovery should be made consistent across all obtainable sources.

Integer or Percentile? It is quite apparent it was the 2 classes without a unique Percentile Buff to HP Regen which were able to make the strongest and most suddenly exceptional use - in the larger picture - of Integer sources of HP Regen - rather than classes with a unique Percentile Buff to HP Regen. Of course - non-class Percentile Buffs to HP Regen were an important part of the way these 2 classes were able to use HP Regen.

I would say Percentile Buffs to HP Regen could be used as a way to moderate the lack of healing in certain specs, which, we may have seen play out over the last few years, but the ever-increasing integer sources of HP Regen along with ever-decreasing unique Percentile Buffs which had some opportunity cost (Orgnum's, Racial passives, Champion passives) meant that HP Regen was freely available in larger numbers to any spec that wanted it. This meant it only further increased the power of what would've been the strongest specs anyhow, without many meaningful opportunity costs - and that's regardless of the fact that we were in a non-scaled Proc + Malacath meta for damage, which meant a Heavy Armor meta for defense, which meant - the widespread proliferation of the strongest non-class Percentile Buff to HP Regen.

All of this engendered an understandable desire to nerf HP Regen. Of course HP Regen must be subject to Battlespirit to be relevant in PvE without being OP in PvP, but like OP says, it might not be relevant in either at its current numbers, either percentile or integer.

That's my read of things, could be a bad one.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

On the flip side, regarding completely other build elements, if Max HP is such an issue in PvP, why aren't there more competitive foods without Max Health than Lava Foot and Ghastly Eye Bowl?

HP Regen would've been less of an issue if Sugar Skulls wasn't already the statistically best food to run even if you didn't care about HP Regen.

Buff the Steed Sign.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On the flip side, regarding completely other build elements, if Max HP is such an issue in PvP, why aren't there more competitive foods without Max Health than Lava Foot and Ghastly Eye Bowl?

HP Regen would've been less of an issue if Sugar Skulls wasn't already the statistically best food to run even if you didn't care about HP Regen.

Buff the Steed Sign.

Lack of food/drink variety IS a massive problem.

There are so many different foods and drinks in the game yet so many are redundant with each other and obvious niches (such as Max Mag, Mag Recovery, Max Stam, Stam Recovery) are left unfilled patch after patch.

I would also love to see The Steed buffed along both axes.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There are so many different foods and drinks in the game yet so many are redundant with each other and obvious niches (such as Max Mag, Mag Recovery, Max Stam, Stam Recovery) are left unfilled patch after patch..

There was a time long ago some found the taste of Blood Price Pie quite delicious - few can find a flavor for it now, their palates dulled by the overbearing sweetness of Sugar Skulls

BohnT2 · April 2021

HP recovery can neck itself and the change should have been implemented years ago.

olsborg · April 2021

Like I said in a different thread, but its more relevant in this thread.

the flat 50% nerf to hp recovery was the wrong way to fix these "hp recovery builds" in cyrodiil, there was plenty of us who enjoyed focusing a little into hp recovery just to get a bit more survivability in hard pressed situations, im talking 1500-2500 hp recovery, if you just flat cut it in half, its gonna hurt everyone, not just the builds that used 4000-6000 hp recovery..wich is the problem.

I suggest softcaps, from the days of old. Anything over 2500 gets cut in half, hell gets cut by 75% even, just dont make the entire stat useless unless you focus 100% solely into it on your build.

MashmalloMan · April 2021

Very well put with the 3x scaling of regen stats, I've talked about the lack of balance amongst the 1-4 piece values for years.. ZOS bases all of their sets, weapon passives, racial passives and mundus stones on these values, but they haven't been adjusted since one tamriel.. if you forget about Crit last patch for a moment.

While I agree of the premise that HP Regen should be based on a multipluer of stam/mag regen, I disagree in the current context of the game because 129 stam/mag Regen should not be equal to 129 weapon/spell damage. I'd argue the following should be done first.

All of these values listed below are rounded on purpose, in most cases it's a difference of around 1% so why not for simplicity sake.

130 weapon/spell damage.
160 stam regen (1.23x stronger than damage)
320 HP regen (2x stronger than Stam/mag regen).
1500 penetration/armor.
5% healing done/received (needs a boost to make it more valuable for healers to use over stacking spell damage).
1200 max HP.
1200 stamina/Magicka. (Buffed to match HP since CP 2.0 removed 20% scaling, our base characters were compensated, but sets with these values were not, it's fallen way behind in value. This change would buff those max resource based sets.)
657 crit chance - 3% (please just convert this to a percentage for tooltips, this isn't intuitive at all, the playerbase doesn't need to know how the sausage is made).
5% crit damage/healing (why not for build diversity, we have Crit resist now and that didn't exist before, this is based on the ratio between daggers/axes and thief/shadow.)

I chose 2x because I think the newer HP Regen sets you listed like beekeeper are bad examples of a ratio to go by. They are overtuned and only exist as a counter balance to all the awful HP Regen you get from regular set bonuses or your character. 2x is also fair because it's based on the buffed stam/mag reg value of 160, rather than 129.

twing1_ · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Great analysis about some of the issues with the various Integer sources of HP Regen.

twing1_ wrote: »

Solution:
Bonuses to health recovery should be made more available to player characters, and the relative value of bonuses to health recovery should be made consistent across all obtainable sources.

Integer or Percentile? It is quite apparent it was the 2 classes without a unique Percentile Buff to HP Regen which were able to make the strongest and most suddenly exceptional use - in the larger picture - of Integer sources of HP Regen - rather than classes with a unique Percentile Buff to HP Regen. Of course - non-class Percentile Buffs to HP Regen were an important part of the way these 2 classes were able to use HP Regen.

I would say Percentile Buffs to HP Regen could be used as a way to moderate the lack of healing in certain specs, which, we may have seen play out over the last few years, but the ever-increasing integer sources of HP Regen along with ever-decreasing unique Percentile Buffs which had some opportunity cost (Orgnum's, Racial passives, Champion passives) meant that HP Regen was freely available in larger numbers to any spec that wanted it. This meant it only further increased the power of what would've been the strongest specs anyhow, without many meaningful opportunity costs - and that's regardless of the fact that we were in a non-scaled Proc + Malacath meta for damage, which meant a Heavy Armor meta for defense, which meant - the widespread proliferation of the strongest non-class Percentile Buff to HP Regen.

All of this engendered an understandable desire to nerf HP Regen. Of course HP Regen must be subject to Battlespirit to be relevant in PvE without being OP in PvP, but like OP says, it might not be relevant in either at its current numbers, either percentile or integer.

That's my read of things, could be a bad one.

I definitely intended the above changes for only integer sources of hp recovery available to all classes and races, such as base character health regen and item set bonuses.

I agree that percentile based hp recovery should be left as a way of bridging the gap between specs that don't have access to as much healing as others.

twing1_ · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On the flip side, regarding completely other build elements, if Max HP is such an issue in PvP, why aren't there more competitive foods without Max Health than Lava Foot and Ghastly Eye Bowl?

HP Regen would've been less of an issue if Sugar Skulls wasn't already the statistically best food to run even if you didn't care about HP Regen.

Buff the Steed Sign.

Food definitely needs a complete rework, but I think it's a big enough issue to tackle in its own thread entirely. I had ideas for new food scaling by quality, where each gold food would give exactly 10 item set bonuses of stats, typically divided between three different stats with 3 item set bonuses each, and a single set bonus to health recovery, hopefully valued at 387. Then purple food would split exactly 9 item set bonuses between 3 different stats (3 item set bonuses each stat), blue food would split 8 item set bonuses between 2 stats (4 bonuses each stat), and green food would grant 6 item set bonuses to a single stat. This would add viability into all types of food, where green food would actually provide the most item bonuses to a single stat, at the cost of overall stat density.

Also, I didn't address it here in detail, but I did address the steed mundus and other sources of health recovery in my more analytical post, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562332/stat-bonuses-to-health-recovery-are-inconsistent#latest

I won't get into too much detail here, but most other mundus stones hold 1.84x of a 2-4 pc set bonus in value, and the speed portion of it only accounts for about 1.15x set bonuses, leaving almost .69x set bonuses left over for the health recovery portion. With my proposed bump to health recovery stat lines to 387/2-4 pc item set bonus, this would result in the steed mundus providing 266 health recovery and 10% run speed.

twing1_ · April 2021

olsborg wrote: »

Like I said in a different thread, but its more relevant in this thread.

the flat 50% nerf to hp recovery was the wrong way to fix these "hp recovery builds" in cyrodiil, there was plenty of us who enjoyed focusing a little into hp recovery just to get a bit more survivability in hard pressed situations, im talking 1500-2500 hp recovery, if you just flat cut it in half, its gonna hurt everyone, not just the builds that used 4000-6000 hp recovery..wich is the problem.

I suggest softcaps, from the days of old. Anything over 2500 gets cut in half, hell gets cut by 75% even, just dont make the entire stat useless unless you focus 100% solely into it on your build.

I agree that the current 50% reduction without making up for it in other areas hurts builds that didn't spec fully into health recovery too much, and this is probably unintended.

That's why I believe adjusting the base character health recovery from the measly 309 it is currently at to 1,542 health recovery (and exactly 3x the base magicka or stamina recovery, as is consistent with 5 pc set bonuses) would go a long way to make health recovery more viable on all types of builds, across all kinds of content.

This would result in players seeing an increase of 1,231 healing/2 seconds in PvE and 615 healing/2 seconds in PvP at base level on its own, without any additional bonuses to health recovery.

Fawn4287 · April 2021

Stop relying on afk auto healing, healing is very strong and health recovery stacked builds were one of the biggest problems with the last CP system and just help keep heavy armour almost unchallenged as the PvP meta for nearly every stam class. Watching some werewolf auto heal out of execute whilst CCd on the ground is literally the pinnacle of “why do I keep playing this garbage game moment”.

MashmalloMan · April 2021

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Stop relying on afk auto healing, healing is very strong and health recovery stacked builds were one of the biggest problems with the last CP system and just help keep heavy armour almost unchallenged as the PvP meta for nearly every stam class. Watching some werewolf auto heal out of execute whilst CCd on the ground is literally the pinnacle of “why do I keep playing this garbage game moment”.

OP said nothing about keeping the status quo the same, so maybe read their post again instead of wanting to nerf everything that moves because you happen to disagree with someones build choices. Passive healing is a thing, with or without HP regen, this is just one source of it for our builds, there is nothing wrong with that. OP provided a reasonable arguement and it esentially boils down to raising the floor, but lowering the ceiling.

The reason you or anyone may find HP regen stacking builds annoying is because it's extremely advantagous to use the crazy high HP regen stacking sets like Beekeeper, Troll King, Alessian, Heavy Armor, Sorc/NB, etc, etc which were only created in this state because base values of HP regen were so under powered.

The nerf to -50% HP Regen via battlespirit fixes those extreme scenario's, but it hurts every other person who was just using regular sources of HP regen like our base character stats, HP regen glyphs, 1-4 piece item bonuses that had HP regen, Invigorating, etc. Absolutely none of those build choices are why HP regen builds were OP, they are arguably always worse than going with something like a set with no hp regen bonus for the 1-4 piece, well fitted, weapon damage glyphs, etc.

Plus.. ZOS claims to use standards for everything in set design, yet the multipliers for the sets in question are about 3x as strong as their base values. He showed the math to prove it, but I don't think you read any of that.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

@BohnT2

Let's cut to the chase rather than squabble over 1k HPS.

As for the path forward for DK, what do you think between these two choices, or do you think there is another idea:

A. Revive the old Pressure Tank role

B. Big damage increase on the second hit of Inhale along with highest-stat scaling and Major Expedition on Wings

Anyhow thanks @MashmalloMan , I figured there was a StamSorc or two out there that could sympathize with their old D Swing Cousins about this one. StamSorc is a brilliant success story as to how an off-meta, underpowered, base-game class can be brought up to the current meta.

There's hundreds of thousands of DKs out there waiting for the same thing.

Fawn4287 · April 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Stop relying on afk auto healing, healing is very strong and health recovery stacked builds were one of the biggest problems with the last CP system and just help keep heavy armour almost unchallenged as the PvP meta for nearly every stam class. Watching some werewolf auto heal out of execute whilst CCd on the ground is literally the pinnacle of “why do I keep playing this garbage game moment”.

OP said nothing about keeping the status quo the same, so maybe read their post again instead of wanting to nerf everything that moves because you happen to disagree with someones build choices. Passive healing is a thing, with or without HP regen, this is just one source of it for our builds, there is nothing wrong with that. OP provided a reasonable arguement and it esentially boils down to raising the floor, but lowering the ceiling.

The reason you or anyone may find HP regen stacking builds annoying is because it's extremely advantagous to use the crazy high HP regen stacking sets like Beekeeper, Troll King, Alessian, Heavy Armor, Sorc/NB, etc, etc which were only created in this state because base values of HP regen were so under powered.

The nerf to -50% HP Regen via battlespirit fixes those extreme scenario's, but it hurts every other person who was just using regular sources of HP regen like our base character stats, HP regen glyphs, 1-4 piece item bonuses that had HP regen, Invigorating, etc. Absolutely none of those build choices are why HP regen builds were OP, they are arguably always worse than going with something like a set with no hp regen bonus for the 1-4 piece, well fitted, weapon damage glyphs, etc.

Plus.. ZOS claims to use standards for everything in set design, yet the multipliers for the sets in question are about 3x as strong as their base values. He showed the math to prove it, but I don't think you read any of that.

I read it, health recovery has been bought in line with all other healing and he wants a 300% increase to make the recent change not only rendered useless but health recovery to get an overall buff on top of a huge increase of 5 times the base health recovery based on the numbers of a three piece set and an extremely off meta tank set. If anything these sets have been cherry-picked as their values are above normal range ie. ancient grace gives >2.5 times a normal max mag 2-4 piece bonus whilst endurance gave nearly 5 times the health recovery of 2-4 piece bonus until changed.

Therer are many inconsistencies in the game regarding stats, resistance given by nord racial passive vs. lady mundas vs protective jewellery trait is a good example, others include the outlier of serpant and atronach offering more recovery and steed giving both health recovery and movement speed.

Health recovery is nearly useless in PvE since you have a dedicated healer. Having health automatically regenerate at such an extreme rate without even using player input is the textbook definition of lowering the floor. Thinking your ability to craft the cheesiest most annoying to fight lowest amount of button pressing build is pushing some sort of skill ceiling is laughable at best. The only players that spec in to health recovery en masse are cheesy PvP stam builds usually running heavy armour crutching on the auto healing that can be easily stacked for example using seventh, orgnums/eternal vigor, sugar skulls in 7 heavy coupled with CP.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The only players that spec in to health recovery en masse are cheesy PvP stam builds usually running heavy armour crutching on the auto healing that can be easily stacked for example using seventh, orgnums/eternal vigor, sugar skulls in 7 heavy coupled with CP.

Right, so like 2 years ago or so, of all those things you listed? Every single one of those sources of HP Regen? Here's what was available:

Orgnum's: 50% bonus
Heavy: 5% per piece (or whatever)
Champion: 25%, eventually reduced to 15%

Fast forward to now, on live, rough numbers:

Heavy: 4% per piece
Champion: 2000 integer
Orgnum's: 800 integer
Eternal Vigor: 1000 integer
Sugar Skulls: 500 integer
Seventh Legion: 350 integer

This is what I'm talking about, this proliferation of new large integer values of HP Regen - while some Percentile Buffs in this game - notably some of the base Class Passives - were devised in an environment where there were few large integer inputs for Percentile Buffs to HP Regen.

I don't have an issue with the fact that the easy availability of these large integers means they should be half their value on live, I'm only taking an issue with the fact that this is, in lieu of buffs or revisions to those old Class Passives, unfavorable towards the interests of classes for whom this stat was often relevant in some considerations.

gariondavey · April 2021

I don't know why they say this was an issue because of champion points, and then screw over people who don't use champion points (no cp PvP). Like what?!

twing1_ · April 2021

Fawn4287 wrote: »

I read it, health recovery has been bought in line with all other healing and he wants a 300% increase to make the recent change not only rendered useless but health recovery to get an overall buff on top of a huge increase of 5 times the base health recovery based on the numbers of a three piece set and an extremely off meta tank set. If anything these sets have been cherry-picked as their values are above normal range ie. ancient grace gives >2.5 times a normal max mag 2-4 piece bonus whilst endurance gave nearly 5 times the health recovery of 2-4 piece bonus until changed.

The 200%* increase I'm calling for is strictly to 2-4 pc bonuses to health recovery, not any of the 5 pc bonuses, monster sets, or 3 pc set bonuses that were listed as problematic before health recovery was affected by battle spirit. Those values would remain untouched, and their healing would continue to be halved by battle spirit.

The sets I've so called "cherry picked" to fit my example happen to offer the most clear cut insight into the relationship between the value of health recovery and other stats, as they provide unconditional set bonuses to raw character stats, which ZOS has claimed are valued on par with other unconditional set bonuses to raw character stats. They also happen to be the most recently adjusted sources of health recovery in the game. It is for these reasons that I believe these sets shed the most light onto what ZOS values integer sources of health recovery to be at when compared to other raw character stats, and what the balance of the game should be based around.

Although these 2 sets provide the cleanest comparison of this, there are other instances too, take eternal vigor for example.

Eternal vigor:
While health is above 50%, gain 337 stamina and Magicka recovery. While health is below 50%, gain 1011 health recovery.

Based on the similar proc conditions and the mutual exclusivity of both of EV's stat bonuses, it is safe to assume that the stam/mag recovery is weighted equally to the health recovery offered by the set.

As is the case with other hybrid sets in the game, (domihaus/swarm mother 1 pc bonuses both granting 1096 magicka and stamina, many of the crafted set 2-4 pc set bonuses granting both 129 weapon and 129 spell damage in the same line, etc), its safe to assume that the magicka and stamina recovery of EV is being given the same treatment.

EV stam/mag recovery stat density:
337 (EV value) / 129 (2-4 pc set bonus value) = 2.61

EV health recovery stat density:
1011 (EV value) / 129 (2-4 pc set bonus value) = 7.83, exactly 3x the stat density of the mutually exclusive bonus to raw stats that's paired with it.

7.83 / 3 = 2.61

Coincidence? I think not.

This set's health recovery bonus too seems to value 2-4 pc bonuses to health recovery at the 387 mark. There are examples all around, I simply chose Beekeeper's Gear and Endurance for simplicity's sake.

It's no secret that in order for there to be absolute balance in the game, the relative strength of any particular character stat when compared to another must remain consistent across all obtainable stat sources, and in the games current state, this does not hold true for health recovery. It is because of this reason, and the evidence listed above, that I hypothesize 2-4 pc bonuses to health recovery should be valued at the integer 387, and all other sources should be based off of this balance, including the base health recovery on the character stat sheet, the steed mundus, and any 5 pc bonuses moving forward, as beekeeper's, endurance, eternal vigor, and others I haven't yet laid the math out for you already are.

Yes, there are other inconsistencies in the game, and if it were up to me those would be resolved as well. I've brought into light inconsistencies between mundus stones in my other post found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562332/stat-bonuses-to-health-recovery-are-inconsistent#latest

and the inconsistencies between racial skills in yet another post, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560656/definitively-balancing-racial-skills#latest

and the inconsistencies in the healing done 2-4 pc bonuses before it was brought more in line with ZOS's standard in one more post, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461580/healing-done-is-broken-and-inconsistent#latest

and I even plan on making another post about the inconsistencies between food, although I haven't gotten to that one yet because I'm currently tackling the health recovery issue.

P. S. Protective trait and lady mundus are already in line with the balance of a 2-4 pc item set bonus to resistance granting 1487 resistances and mundus stones being valued at ~1.85x this value and jewelry traits being valued at ~.80x this value. The 2600 resistances nord gives has more to do with the lack of a standardization between racial skills and not the lack of balance within the resistances character stat.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Yeah. As far as I can remember, when this 129 base number was made the only other sources of integer HP Regen were basic foods, enchants, and the Steed Sign, which was less than its current value. The inconsistencies started when they revised Alessian, Endurance, and 7th, giving them all large integer HP Regen values, and then buffed Beekeeper, probably Permafrost and Green Pact too, and revised Orgnum's. Despite all that Troll King received only a nerf. Despite all that, like I'm saying, if Sugar Skulls wasn't the meta food even if you didn't care about HP Regen while also being overwhelmingly the most stat dense food that did have HP regen, I think it would've been less likely that this stat was an issue. Alessian WWs still would've been incredibly strong if Sugar Skulls didn't exist, of course.

Anyhow my point is really just:

Add a 0 to DK's Elder Dragon passive. This would give DK the strongest use of HP Regen - buffing their HPS in a much needed way, and giving them some defensive advantage that other classes don't have.

We can assume this won't lead to nerf DK threads, because HP Regen is a stat for scrubs, it's AFK Auto-healing, and we'll be made fun of for using it. That's fine, sounds like a great deal for us.

Or not, revise it to some other defensive passive. Right now burst mitigation is much more important than HPS really. My interest in this matter is rather narrow in the end - the interests of DK.

etchedpixels · April 2021

It's also completely borked for warden because if the bear is slotted you have 500 ultimate you never use. Now slot the right CP star and that's 1500 health regen all day every.

twing1_ · April 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Very well put with the 3x scaling of regen stats, I've talked about the lack of balance amongst the 1-4 piece values for years.. ZOS bases all of their sets, weapon passives, racial passives and mundus stones on these values, but they haven't been adjusted since one tamriel.. if you forget about Crit last patch for a moment.

While I agree of the premise that HP Regen should be based on a multipluer of stam/mag regen, I disagree in the current context of the game because 129 stam/mag Regen should not be equal to 129 weapon/spell damage. I'd argue the following should be done first.

All of these values listed below are rounded on purpose, in most cases it's a difference of around 1% so why not for simplicity sake.

130 weapon/spell damage.
160 stam regen (1.23x stronger than damage)
320 HP regen (2x stronger than Stam/mag regen).
1500 penetration/armor.
5% healing done/received (needs a boost to make it more valuable for healers to use over stacking spell damage).
1200 max HP.
1200 stamina/Magicka. (Buffed to match HP since CP 2.0 removed 20% scaling, our base characters were compensated, but sets with these values were not, it's fallen way behind in value. This change would buff those max resource based sets.)
657 crit chance - 3% (please just convert this to a percentage for tooltips, this isn't intuitive at all, the playerbase doesn't need to know how the sausage is made).
5% crit damage/healing (why not for build diversity, we have Crit resist now and that didn't exist before, this is based on the ratio between daggers/axes and thief/shadow.)

I chose 2x because I think the newer HP Regen sets you listed like beekeeper are bad examples of a ratio to go by. They are overtuned and only exist as a counter balance to all the awful HP Regen you get from regular set bonuses or your character. 2x is also fair because it's based on the buffed stam/mag reg value of 160, rather than 129.

I agree that the relative values of character stats need to be adjusted, but more important than that I believe is to make consistent the obtainable sources of stats. This way, the relative stat values can be adjusted and because all obtainable sources would just be a coefficient of this value, all sources would be adjusted at the same time while also maintaining the same balance between character stats. It is for this reason that inconsistency is such a big issue in the game, but once that's resolved we can start toying around with actual stat values to find true balance.

That being said, I agree with your suggestions. Recovery values should be higher than weapon damage values, and max stat bonuses should see a 20% bonus to compensate for the loss of the cp 20% boost. It would also be nice to see the values rounded out as you suggested, and also to see the relatively weak healing received and healing done bonuses boosted as well. Crit chance being converted into percentages would be an intuitive change as well.

The one part where I disagree with you is that I believe defensive bonuses should be valued 10% stronger than offensive bonuses, as is the current case between hp and max mag/stam (1206 vs 1096). This is because defensive bonuses are required to be slightly stronger than offensive bonuses if they are to be viable in PvP.

Let's use 2 players as an example, where one specs fully into damage and another specs fully into defense. In this example, 1 defensive bonus = 1 offensive bonus, where one defensive bonus perfectly counters one offensive bonus in terms of damage done, health lost, etc. In a 1v1 match, it's a stale mate. Because the defensive player has no investment in offense, they cannot kill the offensive player and because the offensive player is perfectly countered by the defensive player, the offensive player cannot kill the defensive player. But now let's say another offensive player enters the mix. With the 2 offensive players both on the defensive player, the defensive player dies. So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

If the best case scenario for the defensive play style is a stale mate (no kills) and every other scenario is death, players will be encouraged to stay away from the defensive play style all together and instead spec into offense. Both play styles should be existent and appealing, and therefore defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses. This would also encourage group roles in PvP, where one player is able to tank damage from multiple sources without completely failing.

So the adjustments I would make to your values would be:

Max stam/mag: 1200
Max health: 1320
Penetration: 1500
Resistances: 1650

OG_Kaveman · April 2021

@twing1_ So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses

in pvp, people need to die, stalemates are bad for pvp progression. therefore defensive abilities/stats always ought to be weaker then offensive.

twing1_ · April 2021

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@twing1_ So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses

in pvp, people need to die, stalemates are bad for pvp progression. therefore defensive abilities/stats always ought to be weaker then offensive.

So if a player specs into 2 defensive sets and a defensive monster set, you believe that a single player should have the capacity to melt them?

Do you believe the group role of tank should exist in PvP? Or should that solely be left to PvE?

master_vanargand · April 2021

twing1_ wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@twing1_ So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses

in pvp, people need to die, stalemates are bad for pvp progression. therefore defensive abilities/stats always ought to be weaker then offensive.

So if a player specs into 2 defensive sets and a defensive monster set, you believe that a single player should have the capacity to melt them?

Do you believe the group role of tank should exist in PvP? Or should that solely be left to PvE?

Tank should be block.
If Tank can't block, Tank needs to die.

sentientomega · April 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

It's also completely borked for warden because if the bear is slotted you have 500 ultimate you never use. Now slot the right CP star and that's 1500 health regen all day every.

Summoning the bear does not cost ultimate, so you can still have them out and make use of that awesome CP slottable.

etchedpixels · April 2021

sentientomega wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

It's also completely borked for warden because if the bear is slotted you have 500 ultimate you never use. Now slot the right CP star and that's 1500 health regen all day every.

Summoning the bear does not cost ultimate, so you can still have them out and make use of that awesome CP slottable.

That was the point I was trying to make yes.

OG_Kaveman · May 2021

twing1_ wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@twing1_ So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses

in pvp, people need to die, stalemates are bad for pvp progression. therefore defensive abilities/stats always ought to be weaker then offensive.

So if a player specs into 2 defensive sets and a defensive monster set, you believe that a single player should have the capacity to melt them?

Do you believe the group role of tank should exist in PvP? Or should that solely be left to PvE?

yes. 2 v 1. yes. 1 v 1. yes. there is no point to a tank without a group. if there was a group of 3 dps (however you want to damage dealer in pvp) vs a group of 3 with one tank and 2 dps and one tank, i think that the group with the tank ought to win, if the tank is actually doing things tanks ought to be doing, IE CC and staying alive while the dps kill the other dps.

cheemers · May 2021

twing1_ wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@twing1_ So what's to encourage players to play defensively?

defensive bonuses should have the slight edge over offensive bonuses

in pvp, people need to die, stalemates are bad for pvp progression. therefore defensive abilities/stats always ought to be weaker then offensive.

So if a player specs into 2 defensive sets and a defensive monster set, you believe that a single player should have the capacity to melt them?

Do you believe the group role of tank should exist in PvP? Or should that solely be left to PvE?

This is disingenuous. PvP is not a slugfest where two people just stand still and do a damage rotation on each other.

If the defensive player holds block, they increase their effective defense by 60+%. What can the offensive player do to similarly boost their damage by that margin? If the defensive player and offensive player have equal stats, and the defensive player dodge rolls a single attack, then over time the defensive player will have a net HP gain.

Your argument is so narrow and unrealistic that it comes across as woefully uninformed.

sneakymitchell · May 2023

Make HP recovery great again!

ZOS_Kraken · May 2023

Hello

We have gone ahead and closed this thread down since it is rather old. Please keep in mind that sometimes it is better to create a new topic, instead of replying in one that was posted a while ago. Thanks for your understanding.