The state of Frozen Retreat

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

I wanted to bring up this lesser used morph as it is a skill that has similarities to recently changed and implemented skills, however it seems to have been forgotten.

Recently during Scribes of Fate, one of the goals of that patch was to implement "some long-time coming reworks to abilities or traits that had been languishing in weird states of balance for a while." i understand that there is not enough time to touch every single problematic morph or skill so i don't want to seem like i'm complaining that nothing has been done because it's understandable. But i simply want to bring some attention to frozen gate and it's morphs so that potentially they may recieve some changes in the future to benefit wardens who want to use them. this goes for tanks as well as damage dealers, which i'll get to later, but first i wanted to cover a general issue that has been brought up since last patch.

Taunting with a Pull

Abilities and item sets that pull a singular target will now also attempt to taunt the target for 15 seconds if they are not already affected by a player taunt.
This applies to the following sources:
Beckoning Armor
Fiery Grip and Unrelenting Grip
Silver Leash
Swarm Mother

Developer Comment:
In a previous update, we removed a feature referred to as “soft taunt” that was seen on a few of these sources, which at the time was actively causing complications with targets becoming taunt immune or tauntable. We’ve found a much better long-term solution after investigating this for a while, with a lot less weird hitches or interactions. Now when you use an ability against a target, it will check if the target is already taunted; if they are not, it will taunt them. If they are already taunted, it will continue to pull the target and all of the other listed effects, but the taunt from the pull will not apply. This should help give more power of control to those who need to taunt targets, while simultaneously allowing non-tanks to still utilize these abilities without getting clobbered in situations such as the Twins in Maw of Lorkhaj.

We are just wondering why Frozen Gate and it's morphs aren't added to this list, as it is an ability that pulls a singular target.

Frozen Retreat's Use Cases

Firstly, as i'm sure many people may be aware, there are 2 morphs for every skill. Frozen Gate has Frozen Device and Frozen Retreat as it's morph options. Here they are:

Frozen Retreat sounds great on paper. a useful tool to save an ally in a sticky situation, however, it just doesn't hold up unless that you are in a situation where you are 1, isolated from your group but within 28 meters, 2, are unable to run back to them and 3, cannot save yourself or be healed through the situation, this is when it would see it's greatest use, however i, personally have never encountered a situation where the tank would be able to use the pull to save me. Additionally, the 28 meter range stipulation heavily cripples it's potential use for this situation. Even in pvp, the synergy's range remains at 28 meters. I have never once seen a tank EVER use this morph in a dungeon or raid over Frozen Device as Major Maim has more potential to be useful than Frozen Retreat. I will add that the only situation i ever encounter Frozen Retreat, is within major cities, and people using it to meme. From my many years playing this game, i can honestly say that people do not know that this morph exists and therefore i make the case that it is time for some change with this morph. I have some additional words about this utility going forward when the Arcanist is introduced into the game.

Arcanist's Passage Between Worlds

With the Release of the Necrom Chapter, we will recieve the Arcanist. Arcanist has some very interesting utility, but i'm only interested in Passage Between Worlds today.

Passage Between Worlds is more specialised as a support skill as it offers no healing, defense/damage boost or a Pull like Frozen Retreat, however it provides a very similar thing that Retreat does without the limitations present. Passage Between Worlds creates 2 portals, this means that whenever the portal is taken, it isn't directly to one player which may be in an extremely hostile situation, the portal allows for Targeted Teleportation. Targeted Teleportation is far more useful as it can be used to bridge gaps/damage walls not already crossed by the group or, it can teleport you up ledges in pvp to allow you to escape easier without having someone already present up said ledge. it's simply more versatile and Arcanist does a far better job at ally transportation. I think there's an argument to be made that Frozen Retreat underperforms in this area to such an extent that it's more worthwhile to take the morph that applies major maim when you already have a source of major maim from your Frost Clench taunt. this brings me to my suggestion.

What could be done?

I believe that Frozen Retreat and Frozen Device should be combined into one morph. I know people who use Silver Leash over Frozen Device as they prefer a less janky and slow pull, however, with an added synergy that may occasionally help, it could convince some people to run the skill in more situations and it doesn't get rid of the morph for those few people who enjoy using it despite it's flaws, a change like this would only serve to help the synergy be used as currently it is not worth it in most situations, so i can predict some creative uses that may stem from it being more accessable.

In it's place, i believe that one of the morphs should be reworked slightly to instead no longer immobilise or pull enemies and have a slightly longer arming time, but instead to deal significantly increased damage to enemies at low health as an execute ability. Arctic Blast, Frost Reach and Winter's Revenge all are the opposite morphs to tanking focused ones. Because of this, both morphs are used and appreciated by their audiences. And as the morph options are quite weak on frozen gate, combining them into one would not effect the balance of the skill other than to make it more enticing and fun for the group to use.

a change like this makes the skill extremely challenging to use in pvp environments as it requires placement on the ground, an arming time and a set health % in order to gain it's maximum benefit and movement prediction. I am well aware that wardens are currently strong right now in pvp which this suggestion aims to avoid. it should provide noticably less benefit in pvp than in pve, where currently, warden damage dealers struggle compared to stronger classes. In addition, a rework like this allows frost wardens to gain another frost damage skill which heavily benefits the fan favourite frostbite set, more viable frost damage sources in frost warden's kit means that the set is able to do more work and potentially might be able to beat other overused sets. Another benefit that this execute rework would provide is being another source of mastery now that our shalks time management mini-game was removed.

The goal with the scorch changes may have been to lessen warden's buff management, however the problem that created was dumbing down warden's kit. As now with no shalks to manage every 3 seconds, we simply spam our spammable more than ever which isn't exactly engaging gameplay. however gameplay in execute range could be significantly more inticing and fun if optimal gameplay was to weave reworked frozen retreat and our spammable between recasting our damage over time skills and scorch. There may exist the option to instead create a new mini-game for wardens to manage in order to gain optimal damage output. frozen retreat could do this if reworked. (minigames refer to skills other classes have such as nightblade's assassin's will, sorcerer's bound armaments, dragonknight's molten whip or templar's power of the light.)

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

Made some minor updates to the what could be done section.

MashmalloMan · April 2023

Agreed, these abilities need work. I've never once wanted to use them over silver leash.

BixenteN7Akantor · April 2023

Also Frozen Device is used as an exploit in Cyrodiil's bridges. Put the devices in the middle, get on the little edges above water, wait, profit because ennemies spawn in the air above lethal water and it even ignores LoS...

Greystag · April 2023

I only play warden, and have tanked almost every vHM dungeon. My only memory of this skill when tanking is the moment I replaced it with leash not long after trying it out. It feels really gimmicky to use when in the middle of combat, and aiming at an enemy's feet is just harder than aiming at them and using a skill.

As for the retreat synergy? I have never seen it used effectively in combat, flat out. I've only ever used it when messing around with friends, parkouring around cities or helping them get unstuck. I like that aspect of the skill, but in PvE it is fundamentally broken. Tanks are usually in the most dangerous spot of a fight, so you don't want to teleport to them. DDs wouldn't want to switch out a damage skill for it or risk pulling adds to them and messing with the Tank's CC. Healing is the only role I see this being used, and even then, the skill is still gimmicky and extremely niche at its core.

Wardens cannot afford to have skills that are this situational. The retreat synergy does NOT warrant a morph. The identity of the "Masters of Ice" already struggles as is, with even the Devs having admitted to the sheer lack of frost damage sources in the game -a lack so noticeable that it makes a set geared to buff the hell out of frost skills underperform-. Portals don't really fit the fantasy of the Warden either.

What I would personally like to see done is to shift the synergy to the Frozen Device morph, and change the base skill to a utility oriented ability, like a trap that causes damage and a debuff to enemies. Then, make the other morph deal DoT on top of that.

You could make it a frost-themed version of Engulfing Flames:

Base:
"Summon an ancient portal, which arms after 1.5 seconds. When triggered, the portal shatters, dealing X damage to enemies around it. Affected enemies take 6% more damage from all Frost Damage attacks for 20 seconds."

Morph 1:
"New Effect - The ice shards stick to the enemies, causing them to take X damage over the duration."

Morph 2:
"New Effect - Pull + Synergy."

Alternatively, instead of a DoT, why not use the opportunity to give us the frost shalks we've been begging for for years?

Base:
"Summon an ancient rune, which arms after 1.5 seconds. When triggered, the rune shatters, inflicting Major and Minor Breach and dealing X damage (low) to enemies around it. Affected enemies take 6% more damage from all Frost Damage attacks for 20 seconds."

Morph 1:
"New Effect - The rune now shatters on its own after 3 seconds, and deals greatly increased damage." (make is comparable to Deep Fissure before that weird nerf it got.

Morph 2:
"New Effect - Pull + Synergy."

Those are my ramblings. I just want more abilities that can help Wardens live up to this "Masters of Ice" fantasy.

TLDR; Make the skill work similarly to Shalks, or a Frost version of Engulfing flames.

vgabor · April 2023

As it said above the targeted pull skills are much better, so there are very few case where this skill is used over any other pull ability

- In PvE the brp arena where if the tank knows very well the spawning spots they can place this there before the round starts and then the mob effectively will port on spawn to the tank
- In PvP against flag bombers, when you place the gate on the flag and stand further aside, as then when a bomber comes onto the flag they get ported out to you from the crowd

But beyond these two use case I don't really know any situation where a chain or leash wouldn't be just simply better...

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

vgabor wrote: »

As it said above the targeted pull skills are much better, so there are very few case where this skill is used over any other pull ability

- In PvE the brp arena where if the tank knows very well the spawning spots they can place this there before the round starts and then the mob effectively will port on spawn to the tank
- In PvP against flag bombers, when you place the gate on the flag and stand further aside, as then when a bomber comes onto the flag they get ported out to you from the crowd

But beyond these two use case I don't really know any situation where a chain or leash wouldn't be just simply better...

I know a couple of people that prefer frozen gate but i can't say for sure how many warden tanks use it over silver leash. Either way it's definitely not overperforming.

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

Greystag wrote: »

I only play warden, and have tanked almost every vHM dungeon. My only memory of this skill when tanking is the moment I replaced it with leash not long after trying it out. It feels really gimmicky to use when in the middle of combat, and aiming at an enemy's feet is just harder than aiming at them and using a skill.

As for the retreat synergy? I have never seen it used effectively in combat, flat out. I've only ever used it when messing around with friends, parkouring around cities or helping them get unstuck. I like that aspect of the skill, but in PvE it is fundamentally broken. Tanks are usually in the most dangerous spot of a fight, so you don't want to teleport to them. DDs wouldn't want to switch out a damage skill for it or risk pulling adds to them and messing with the Tank's CC. Healing is the only role I see this being used, and even then, the skill is still gimmicky and extremely niche at its core.

Wardens cannot afford to have skills that are this situational. The retreat synergy does NOT warrant a morph. The identity of the "Masters of Ice" already struggles as is, with even the Devs having admitted to the sheer lack of frost damage sources in the game -a lack so noticeable that it makes a set geared to buff the hell out of frost skills underperform-. Portals don't really fit the fantasy of the Warden either.

What I would personally like to see done is to shift the synergy to the Frozen Device morph, and change the base skill to a utility oriented ability, like a trap that causes damage and a debuff to enemies. Then, make the other morph deal DoT on top of that.

You could make it a frost-themed version of Engulfing Flames:
Base:
"Summon an ancient portal, which arms after 1.5 seconds. When triggered, the portal shatters, dealing X damage to enemies around it. Affected enemies take 6% more damage from all Frost Damage attacks for 20 seconds."

Morph 1:
"New Effect - The ice shards stick to the enemies, causing them to take X damage over the duration."

Morph 2:
"New Effect - Pull + Synergy."

Alternatively, instead of a DoT, why not use the opportunity to give us the frost shalks we've been begging for for years?
Base:
"Summon an ancient rune, which arms after 1.5 seconds. When triggered, the rune shatters, inflicting Major and Minor Breach and dealing X damage (low) to enemies around it. Affected enemies take 6% more damage from all Frost Damage attacks for 20 seconds."

Morph 1:
"New Effect - The rune now shatters on its own after 3 seconds, and deals greatly increased damage." (make is comparable to Deep Fissure before that weird nerf it got.

Morph 2:
"New Effect - Pull + Synergy."

Those are my ramblings. I just want more abilities that can help Wardens live up to this "Masters of Ice" fantasy.

TLDR; Make the skill work similarly to Shalks, or a Frost version of Engulfing flames.

i'm not really sure if it should be another dot because we have arctic blast and winter's revenge doing that already, but if it was a delayed burst execute trap, that'd fill a niche in our kit we currently lack, while also being really unique for a trap skill. it'd add back damage lost from the shalks nerf to warden in pve, especially during execute. we may have an excute ultimate but we can't cast it a lot.

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Agreed, these abilities need work. I've never once wanted to use them over silver leash.

some people just don't think it's worth using than a faster grip skill, however, there is some applicable benefit provided you know the spawn positions of enemies that need to be gripped in as you can place them in preparation.

Foxtrot39 · April 2023

The morph with synergy for allies should be more focused on healing/protecting

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

The morph with synergy for allies should be more focused on healing/protecting

it'd be interesting if they instead gave that synergy to a reworked bursting vines instead of gripping the user to the target.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2023

This skill has been F-Tier (actually, Z-Tier) for SO long now it is refreshing to see some ideas put forth to improve it.

I generally agree with what has been written and would most love to see the synergy re-worked to facilitate some facet of group support or buffing.

The upside of the current situation is that there is almost nowhere to go but up for any changes made to the skill!

ESO_Nightingale · April 2023

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This skill has been F-Tier (actually, Z-Tier) for SO long now it is refreshing to see some ideas put forth to improve it.

I generally agree with what has been written and would most love to see the synergy re-worked to facilitate some facet of group support or buffing.

The upside of the current situation is that there is almost nowhere to go but up for any changes made to the skill!

i think any future supportive elements in warden's kit should be focused into green balance to help pull up the underperforming skills in that tree. frozen retreat would be easier to rework into a damage skill considering all that would need to be done to it is to remove the pull and immobilise feature, and to add some sort of damage increasing effect. They don't have to change the trap mechanics whatsoever. but i'd love to see that synergy moved to device or possibly moved to a reworked bursting vines as no-one uses that and it'd be nice as a "life grip" synergy for healers.

ESO_Nightingale · May 2023

well, i'm not expecting any changes to warden this patch, though it'd be nice if they reverted the uncalled for blast change.

SEINTDARKNES · May 2023

Well for my experience when i play pve I'm mainly a tank and let me tell you that frozen gate is really annoying to use, i prefer to use silver leash because it taunts enemies, is more easy to use, is instant and I don't need to micromanage the skill.

One example of this is bal sunnar final boss in hard mode(really fun dungeon to play as a tank especially in hm) in the final boss one of the mech is pull skevers so your allies don't die but try to pull these enemies and more when start running really fast and your teammates need to run too for their life while you are standing still tanking the boss aoe attack and you try to put portals all the place just to see how it miss the enemy because the rune took so long to arm just to see your allies dies by a little rat and maybe get yelled because you aren't doing your job as a tank.

Some ppl could say gate it's good for arenas(vbrp especially) and yeah can be good but realistically you could do the same with silver leash just a little less effective and i don't think the majority of the ppl is playing arenas trying to get high scores, also i have completed both arenas multiple times with silver leash.

Another big problem i have with gate is don't pull major enemies and gate doesn't taunt enemies neither at least silver shard taunts major enemies, is not practical but could be used as "range taunt".

Like op @ESO_Nightingale said i think to combine both gate morphs into one of the morphs is better(maybe will be useful to pull a friend in pve or pvp?) because realistically you will never try to pull an ally to the danger zone where the tank is holding more cause almost all the bosses have some kind of aoe direct damage that one shot your allies or aoe pools of dmg that kill really fast even tanks take a lot of dmg inside these, also you need to be in range, also also i think the final version of both morphs combined need some kind of buff to the placement of the runes(I don't know why but when you are moving or running this skill, healing seeds and secluded grove takes a lot of time to trigger the ability taking 2-3 seconds to place the aoe in the floor or sometimes it cancel the skill and just show the ring where it will be placed but nothing happen and you need to recast the skill one more time), short the timer to trigger the rune and maybe a short animation.

For the other morph i think op have a nice idea converting that morph into a damage skill, I think we need more options to deal damage in the warden kit in general for stam and mag so this can be very useful for frostdens giving them more options to play with, and maybe in the future we could get more options to bleeden too(sub assault bleed/deep fissure frost
Anyone? maybe? Just me?).

ESO_Nightingale · May 2023

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Well for my experience when i play pve I'm mainly a tank and let me tell you that frozen gate is really annoying to use, i prefer to use silver leash because it taunts enemies, is more easy to use, is instant and I don't need to micromanage the skill.

One example of this is bal sunnar final boss in hard mode(really fun dungeon to play as a tank especially in hm) in the final boss one of the mech is pull skevers so your allies don't die but try to pull these enemies and more when start running really fast and your teammates need to run too for their life while you are standing still tanking the boss aoe attack and you try to put portals all the place just to see how it miss the enemy because the rune took so long to arm just to see your allies dies by a little rat and maybe get yelled because you aren't doing your job as a tank.

Some ppl could say gate it's good for arenas(vbrp especially) and yeah can be good but realistically you could do the same with silver leash just a little less effective and i don't think the majority of the ppl is playing arenas trying to get high scores, also i have completed both arenas multiple times with silver leash.

Another big problem i have with gate is don't pull major enemies and gate doesn't taunt enemies neither at least silver shard taunts major enemies, is not practical but could be used as "range taunt".

Like op @ESO_Nightingale said i think to combine both gate morphs into one of the morphs is better(maybe will be useful to pull a friend in pve or pvp?) because realistically you will never try to pull an ally to the danger zone where the tank is holding more cause almost all the bosses have some kind of aoe direct damage that one shot your allies or aoe pools of dmg that kill really fast even tanks take a lot of dmg inside these, also you need to be in range, also also i think the final version of both morphs combined need some kind of buff to the placement of the runes(I don't know why but when you are moving or running this skill, healing seeds and secluded grove takes a lot of time to trigger the ability taking 2-3 seconds to place the aoe in the floor or sometimes it cancel the skill and just show the ring where it will be placed but nothing happen and you need to recast the skill one more time), short the timer to trigger the rune and maybe a short animation.

For the other morph i think op have a nice idea converting that morph into a damage skill, I think we need more options to deal damage in the warden kit in general for stam and mag so this can be very useful for frostdens giving them more options to play with, and maybe in the future we could get more options to bleeden too(sub assault bleed/deep fissure frost
Anyone? maybe? Just me?).

i don't see the retreat synergy ever being good unless it comes with the entire frozen device package as a bonus. there's a reason that barely anyone picks the morph. it's just so niche that the major maim is better most of the time.

ESO_Nightingale · May 2023

while i doubt this skill will be touched at all this cycle, we can at least hope they may actually revert arctic blast's random changes.

ESO_Nightingale · June 2023

With the next pts cycle approaching in a couple of weeks, i hope we see some changes to frozen retreat. Seeing no changes to revert arctic blast was incredibly frustrating and disheartening.