Rework Sorcerers pets

grzes848909 · April 2023

Since the pts is going to be turned on for necrom testing on monday then I thought that hopefully someone in dev team will see this post. Sorcs pets are hard to work around with, most morphs are unhelpful with exception of Twilight Matriarch that casts a good instant heal to multiple targets, and they all take 2 active abilities slots instead of one, making it hard to fit in any build and playstyle.
First and most important to their rework is to make these pets not take 2 ability slots, just one, that's because the bonuses for having a pet are worse than simply slotting 2 diffrent abilities.
Please also do add some more active elements to pets, for example: the Sorcerers could really use a self casted magicka heal over time and currently only magicka heal over time available is one in restoration tree which not only forces one to use a restoration staff but also is weaker than stamina based self heal like vigor, this forces most Sorcerers to have run vigor regardless of how they play, it would be a good idea to convert one the pets morphs to grant magicka heal over time to give people more choices.

And of course there should be some additional drawbacks added since the pets would only take one space, for instance adding 3-5 second cast time and 10000 magicka base cost to recast once killed to create more higher risk higher reward scenarios with using pets.

Down here Ill list some example ideas of reworks I came up with but if you do not wish to read this then thats fine, these are my personal ideas and might not be perfectly balanced; that would be dev team's job to decide.

Summon Winged Twilight: the role of unmorphed twilight as well the twilight matriarch morph are actually fine as they are but the other morph, the twilight tormentor, is worse when compared to other options, most comparably dot effects which often are more effective and bring more utility than tormentors damage. My idea is to rework twilight tormentor morph is to convert it into a spammable instead that deals extra damage to targets above 50%. Where once summoned one could activate tormentors ability to send an electric bolt that deals around same base damage as force pulse or elemental weapon, it would also synergise better with sorcerers passives like amplitude and Energized since it deals shock damage.

Summon Unstable Familiar: alike of winged twilight, the base ability for unstable familiar is also fine but both morphs for unstable familiar are hard to utilize in most scenarios. First of all, the Volatile Familiar morph adds a stun mechanic but the stun is delayed and since the pet has to physically walk up to enemies its often hard to use optimally in most scenarios. I say instead what the unstalbe familiar morph could do is once a player targets an enemy and activated its active ability it would stand in place, charge its legs for 1 second and leap itself (similiar to how clannfear mobs you fight in overworld do) towards enemy and stunning them and anyone around in 5 meter radius on impact (also it would be important to add ability to obviously kill but also both stun and especially interupt the familiar while charging its legs as way to counterplay if someone were to duel against it).
The second morph, the unstalbe clannfear, is rarely utilized at all due the fact that not only it has same active ability of twilight but also grants a weaker heal that only heals the user instead of additional targets. One could instead transform the instant heal to a aforementioned heal over time and perhaps add the effect of Unstable Clannfear to apply minor maim debuff upon its attack.

phaneub17_ESO · April 2023

grzes848909 wrote: »

The second morph, the unstalbe clannfear, is rarely utilized at all due the fact that not only it has same active ability of twilight but also grants a weaker heal that only heals the user instead of additional targets. One could instead transform the instant heal to a aforementioned heal over time and perhaps add the effect of Unstable Clannfear to apply minor maim debuff upon its attack.

Unstable Clannfear is mainly used by tanks as the heal scales with maximum health, for any build that is 64 Stamina or Magicka and doesn't utilize Heavy Armor, then yeah the heal is weak. While at 35k or higher health pools, the amount of healing from the Clannfear to you is quite substantial as you don't have to rely on Max Stats and Weapon/Spell Damage that other heals do.

grzes848909 · April 2023

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

The second morph, the unstalbe clannfear, is rarely utilized at all due the fact that not only it has same active ability of twilight but also grants a weaker heal that only heals the user instead of additional targets. One could instead transform the instant heal to a aforementioned heal over time and perhaps add the effect of Unstable Clannfear to apply minor maim debuff upon its attack.

Unstable Clannfear is mainly used by tanks as the heal scales with maximum health, for any build that is 64 Stamina or Magicka and doesn't utilize Heavy Armor, then yeah the heal is weak. While at 35k or higher health pools, the amount of healing from the Clannfear to you is quite substantial as you don't have to rely on Max Stats and Weapon/Spell Damage that other heals do.

I know, but I asked some people ingame and most common anwser is that they have nirnhoned greatsword on back for rally so they have increased stam recovery and a stamina heal along magicka based heal; which also increases healing from the twilight, and even if it were still a bit weaker then the ability to heal your teammates in an emergency is more valuable then some extra healing. Only time clannfear would be better if you are alone as a tank and have no weapon/spell damage but what content requires that ? Even the solo arenas require damage so you can kill mobs fast enough before they kill you so you would still need some damage. I also remember that it used to taunt enemies but I tested it recently it doesnt seem work; even with command pet it didn't work. Also the taunt on a pet is not that good, mostly because clannfear isn't tanky enough to taunt anything for long enough before it dies; one could try to heal it with the ability but it would tank (ba dum tss) your sustain just to keep the thing alive since it doesn't block; or juggle the taunt between you and pet but pet is dumb and often gets killed in aoes or one shot cause it can't block.

acastanza_ESO · April 2023

grzes848909 wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

The second morph, the unstalbe clannfear, is rarely utilized at all due the fact that not only it has same active ability of twilight but also grants a weaker heal that only heals the user instead of additional targets. One could instead transform the instant heal to a aforementioned heal over time and perhaps add the effect of Unstable Clannfear to apply minor maim debuff upon its attack.

Unstable Clannfear is mainly used by tanks as the heal scales with maximum health, for any build that is 64 Stamina or Magicka and doesn't utilize Heavy Armor, then yeah the heal is weak. While at 35k or higher health pools, the amount of healing from the Clannfear to you is quite substantial as you don't have to rely on Max Stats and Weapon/Spell Damage that other heals do.

I know, but I asked some people ingame and most common anwser is that they have nirnhoned greatsword on back for rally so they have increased stam recovery and a stamina heal along magicka based heal; which also increases healing from the twilight, and even if it were still a bit weaker then the ability to heal your teammates in an emergency is more valuable then some extra healing. Only time clannfear would be better if you are alone as a tank and have no weapon/spell damage but what content requires that ? Even the solo arenas require damage so you can kill mobs fast enough before they kill you so you would still need some damage. I also remember that it used to taunt enemies but I tested it recently it doesnt seem work; even with command pet it didn't work. Also the taunt on a pet is not that good, mostly because clannfear isn't tanky enough to taunt anything for long enough before it dies; one could try to heal it with the ability but it would tank (ba dum tss) your sustain just to keep the thing alive since it doesn't block; or juggle the taunt between you and pet but pet is dumb and often gets killed in aoes or one shot cause it can't block.

Tank Sorcs in vet dungeons and trials rely extensively on the Clanfear for healing. It is an essential part of the SorcTank toolkit.

grzes848909 · April 2023

If you could trust your teammates not to die on their own. Personally I and some of my friends often need to use matriarch and babysit rest of our teams on top of tanking just to get through dungeons. But if you have team you know and trust then yes, you are right, the clannfear could be better if you don't have to worry about everyone and spec everything into survivability.

Caligamy_ESO · April 2023

Where is the massively disagree button when you need it?

gariondavey · April 2023

Just make sorc pets like necro pets (not 2 bar but 1 bar skills)

Nebula_DooM · April 2023

Sorc pets should, in the long run, try and become what nightblade shade, necro pets and warden netch are by having a duration. I do dislike how much bar space sorcs have to give up in order to work especially since overload lost its 3rd bar ages ago.

Ideally, they should become untargetable and also buffed to the point where dps works out near the same on live. I'll give a few examples for the clannfear/matriarch heal and tormentor/volatile familiar.

Clannfear/Matriarch heal should work the same as cauterize for dragonknights. Casting it heals once every 5 seconds for x duration.
Another solution is to make it work like warden's budding seeds. It will provide a HoT for sorcs (which i think everyone will appreciate for sorcs), as well as a burst heal if you recast it before the duration expires. Clannfear will scale with max health and heal pet and player whereas matriarch heals players or pet.
As for the damage morphs, they could honestly remain the same but with a damage boost similar to single target dots and aoe dots (tormentor and volatile respectively). Food for thought tho...

Pelanora · April 2023

Re skin at least, re work would be better, re think is what's really needed.

Sorcs needing familiars is lame.

LukosCreyden · April 2023

Bring back no-pet sorc.

Faulgor · April 2023

Nebula_DooM wrote: »

Sorc pets should, in the long run, try and become what nightblade shade, necro pets and warden netch are by having a duration. I do dislike how much bar space sorcs have to give up in order to work especially since overload lost its 3rd bar ages ago.

Ideally, they should become untargetable and also buffed to the point where dps works out near the same on live. I'll give a few examples for the clannfear/matriarch heal and tormentor/volatile familiar.

Clannfear/Matriarch heal should work the same as cauterize for dragonknights. Casting it heals once every 5 seconds for x duration.
Another solution is to make it work like warden's budding seeds. It will provide a HoT for sorcs (which i think everyone will appreciate for sorcs), as well as a burst heal if you recast it before the duration expires. Clannfear will scale with max health and heal pet and player whereas matriarch heals players or pet.
As for the damage morphs, they could honestly remain the same but with a damage boost similar to single target dots and aoe dots (tormentor and volatile respectively). Food for thought tho...

TES summons always had timers, but I understand the desire to differentiate the "pet class" in some way.
IMO, Sorc pets should have a duration, but with the ability to extend the duration either with Daedric Prey or Ward, or some other mechanic while in combat.

Currently, Necromancers have more interactivity with their pets through the corpse mechanic. While some might enjoy that Sorc pets are basically "slot and forget", they should remember that the pets received their activation abilities precisely because it was too boring before. IMO, a mechanic that intends to keep your pets alive in contrast to Necromancers that want to use their corpses would be a good way to do this. Maybe rework the useless Rebate passive to that effect, e.g. a buff that applies each time you extend your pets' duration.

Pelanora wrote: »

Re skin at least, re work would be better, re think is what's really needed.

Sorcs needing familiars is lame.

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Bring back no-pet sorc.

Also, these.

BaalMelqartu · April 2023

I have expressed before in other threads but sorc pets look like the most dated thing in the entire game to me. Yes please, at LEAST change their appearance, annoyance level and make non pet sorcs more viable. They have already stated that they are looking at non-pet sorc more viable in the future so there's a start at least.

Faulgor · April 2023

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

I have expressed before in other threads but sorc pets look like the most dated thing in the entire game to me. Yes please, at LEAST change their appearance, annoyance level and make non pet sorcs more viable. They have already stated that they are looking at non-pet sorc more viable in the future so there's a start at least.

There has always been the argument that they don't want to upgrade/change existing assets because people might get upset (like all the way back with the upgraded Redguard/Orc motifs) - but ever since the "new and improved" jabs that argument is out the window.
Ideally they'd offer up skins like they did for the Warden bear.

katorga · April 2023

Reduce the size of the Matriarch to that of a non-combat pet.

Zodiarkslayer · April 2023

I am hopeful that the pets will soon be only one bar slot and not disappear when swapping.
There is an ability coming with the arcanist that gives major Brutality on both bars. Maybe that will be applied to pets too.

Pelanora · April 2023

Merlin and Gandalf didn't need pets

universal_wrath · April 2023

Faulgor wrote: »

Nebula_DooM wrote: »

Sorc pets should, in the long run, try and become what nightblade shade, necro pets and warden netch are by having a duration. I do dislike how much bar space sorcs have to give up in order to work especially since overload lost its 3rd bar ages ago.

Ideally, they should become untargetable and also buffed to the point where dps works out near the same on live. I'll give a few examples for the clannfear/matriarch heal and tormentor/volatile familiar.

Clannfear/Matriarch heal should work the same as cauterize for dragonknights. Casting it heals once every 5 seconds for x duration.
Another solution is to make it work like warden's budding seeds. It will provide a HoT for sorcs (which i think everyone will appreciate for sorcs), as well as a burst heal if you recast it before the duration expires. Clannfear will scale with max health and heal pet and player whereas matriarch heals players or pet.
As for the damage morphs, they could honestly remain the same but with a damage boost similar to single target dots and aoe dots (tormentor and volatile respectively). Food for thought tho...

TES summons always had timers, but I understand the desire to differentiate the "pet class" in some way.
IMO, Sorc pets should have a duration, but with the ability to extend the duration either with Daedric Prey or Ward, or some other mechanic while in combat.

Currently, Necromancers have more interactivity with their pets through the corpse mechanic. While some might enjoy that Sorc pets are basically "slot and forget", they should remember that the pets received their activation abilities precisely because it was too boring before. IMO, a mechanic that intends to keep your pets alive in contrast to Necromancers that want to use their corpses would be a good way to do this. Maybe rework the useless Rebate passive to that effect, e.g. a buff that applies each time you extend your pets' duration.

Pelanora wrote: »

Re skin at least, re work would be better, re think is what's really needed.

Sorcs needing familiars is lame.

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Bring back no-pet sorc.

Also, these.

1 minute timer to pets is a good duration and it can be increased when equiping and using original bound aegis before rework (old skill).

Also, maybe re-skin tormentor to imps since both use about same attacks. I'm also sure there are better deadric pets who specialized in healing better than clannfear like the twilight or spriggons.

i11ionward · April 2023

I love the concept of call and forget pets in PvE. But the place on the bar is limited (which puts a pet sorcerer in a weaker position compared to other classes), it would be nice if the pets, when called, also gave buffs like Major Brutality/Sorcery, Major Savagery/Prophecy or others.

Elrond87 · April 2023

they need to rework the pets textures and make skins available for it too

ixthUA · April 2023

As a warden, i want bear to have pink flappy wings and hover near me. A cross between bear and matriach would be perfect.

Ragnarok0130 · April 2023

Faulgor wrote: »

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

I have expressed before in other threads but sorc pets look like the most dated thing in the entire game to me. Yes please, at LEAST change their appearance, annoyance level and make non pet sorcs more viable. They have already stated that they are looking at non-pet sorc more viable in the future so there's a start at least.

There has always been the argument that they don't want to upgrade/change existing assets because people might get upset (like all the way back with the upgraded Redguard/Orc motifs) - but ever since the "new and improved" jabs that argument is out the window.
Ideally they'd offer up skins like they did for the Warden bear.

The recent Templar spear model and animation changes are proof of this. We Templars are largely up in arms about these changes and the grievance hasn't even been acknowleged by ZoS. At this point we'd kill to be able to use "customized actions" to revert these changes while allowing those who like them to continue to use the new ones, and I suspect many long time Sorc players would have a similar level of revulsion to such sweeping visual changes after 9 years.

jaws343 · April 2023

Faulgor wrote: »

Nebula_DooM wrote: »

Sorc pets should, in the long run, try and become what nightblade shade, necro pets and warden netch are by having a duration. I do dislike how much bar space sorcs have to give up in order to work especially since overload lost its 3rd bar ages ago.

Ideally, they should become untargetable and also buffed to the point where dps works out near the same on live. I'll give a few examples for the clannfear/matriarch heal and tormentor/volatile familiar.

Clannfear/Matriarch heal should work the same as cauterize for dragonknights. Casting it heals once every 5 seconds for x duration.
Another solution is to make it work like warden's budding seeds. It will provide a HoT for sorcs (which i think everyone will appreciate for sorcs), as well as a burst heal if you recast it before the duration expires. Clannfear will scale with max health and heal pet and player whereas matriarch heals players or pet.
As for the damage morphs, they could honestly remain the same but with a damage boost similar to single target dots and aoe dots (tormentor and volatile respectively). Food for thought tho...

TES summons always had timers, but I understand the desire to differentiate the "pet class" in some way.
IMO, Sorc pets should have a duration, but with the ability to extend the duration either with Daedric Prey or Ward, or some other mechanic while in combat.

Currently, Necromancers have more interactivity with their pets through the corpse mechanic. While some might enjoy that Sorc pets are basically "slot and forget", they should remember that the pets received their activation abilities precisely because it was too boring before. IMO, a mechanic that intends to keep your pets alive in contrast to Necromancers that want to use their corpses would be a good way to do this. Maybe rework the useless Rebate passive to that effect, e.g. a buff that applies each time you extend your pets' duration.

Pelanora wrote: »

Re skin at least, re work would be better, re think is what's really needed.

Sorcs needing familiars is lame.

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Bring back no-pet sorc.

Also, these.

I think there is actually a really easy way to approach sorc pets with only needing to slot on 1 bar.

Keep the current, passive damage as it is for them, but remove the cast times. You cast them, and they go out for 20 seconds, whether you swap bars or not. And they do their passive damage to a target as normal.

Then, for the active abilities. The scamp should have a bit reduced damage when you activate the active ability, however, when you use the scamp's active ability, it refreshes its timer as well. Same for the Tormentor morph of the twilight.

For the matriarch morph, no cast time. Rather it doing damage, have it provide a major or minor buff while it is out. And when you cast a second time, you get the same heal as now. But, it does not refresh the timer. So you have to recast it after it despawns, but it gives you a buff while out and a heal when activated.

Both options allow you to keep the skill single barred and allow you to choose when/if you let the skill run out.

Jestir · April 2023

How about not touching what makes the class one of the easiest classes and great for new players and instead do whatever needs to be done to the class to make no-pet sorcs competitive again to appease people who want to play the class but do not want to have to double bar the pets

Nebula_DooM · May 2023

Faulgor wrote: »

TES summons always had timers, but I understand the desire to differentiate the "pet class" in some way.
IMO, Sorc pets should have a duration, but with the ability to extend the duration either with Daedric Prey or Ward, or some other mechanic while in combat.

Currently, Necromancers have more interactivity with their pets through the corpse mechanic. While some might enjoy that Sorc pets are basically "slot and forget", they should remember that the pets received their activation abilities precisely because it was too boring before. IMO, a mechanic that intends to keep your pets alive in contrast to Necromancers that want to use their corpses would be a good way to do this. Maybe rework the useless Rebate passive to that effect, e.g. a buff that applies each time you extend your pets' duration.

What would be cool to do is make Sorc play around their haunting curse/daedric prey. Increase the duration of it, and provide sorc only buffs like increased damage for sorc skills, increased durations for pets by having an active curse etc

Something like this would be so cool for sorcs. Nightblades for example play around generating bow stacks by getting light attacks in between skill casts, DKs if using molten whip build around ardent flame abilities getting used. Necro plays around their corpse generation etc.

Ideas like these would be nice in the game for each class. The only issue i see with this is that it forces classes to play in a specific way that not everyone would like to play.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · May 2023

I just dislike dual slot pet but on the other hand i hate resummoning pet every few seccond like the netch or the necro. Also there is precedent to infinite summon time limit in other tes game also. Well at least in skyrim, not sure for others. In skyrim master conjuration spell summoned permanent version of the deadra/corpse which stay until killed.

I think they should buff the 2 pets and their morph to actually compensate you for the 2 lost slots. I would say maybe by about 10-20% of oakensoul value(to be ajusted) each as its a similar case of loosing slots just a lesser ammount

Also pet skin akin to the warden bear's one would be appreciated

Credible_Joe · May 2023

Sorc pets should un-summon outside of combat, and re-summon automatically when combat starts (after the initial summon).

I've always hated that pets don't persist between bars. It inflates their skill economy cost higher than their benefit. Especially since matriarch is the sorc's class heal-- something they can only use if they double-bar it at the expense of any other skill on their front. They're the only class with this weakness.

If making it persistent is a line that can't be crossed, at least make the re-summon instant, automatic, and free between bars. Sorcs should be able to back bar their class heal. But this way, the pet won't contribute free DPS on the front.

Trejgon · May 2023

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Also there is precedent to infinite summon time limit in other tes game also. Well at least in skyrim, not sure for others. In skyrim master conjuration spell summoned permanent version of the deadra/corpse which stay until killed.

Which is a master spell, couple centuries later, and to my knowledge is the only "permanent" summon across mainline TES games. (I am not counting the alchemy exploitation from morrowind allowing to get your hands on effectively infinite effects in here)

Dark_Lord_Kuro · May 2023

Trejgon wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Also there is precedent to infinite summon time limit in other tes game also. Well at least in skyrim, not sure for others. In skyrim master conjuration spell summoned permanent version of the deadra/corpse which stay until killed.

Which is a master spell, couple centuries later, and to my knowledge is the only "permanent" summon across mainline TES games. (I am not counting the alchemy exploitation from morrowind allowing to get your hands on effectively infinite effects in here)

Well to my knowlege, i dont think there is lore saying second era mage couldnt conjure master level deadra. Pretty sure lorewise the vestige isnt an avarage conjurer (sorc vestige at least)

VaxtinTheWolf · May 2023

Playing a Sorc Tank, and if they were timer based I'd accept 30 seconds at base, and the timer pauses while Conjured Ward is active on them. Like its as if 'stabilizing them' with the barrier.