Surprise Attack needs a rework

Zastrix · April 2023

Currently with the situation of nightblades on the PTS, stamblades are lacking. They have to cast a 10 second 'spammable' constantly and then additionaly cast their own spammable during most of the fight and during execute. The only spammables stamblades can access are either wrecking blow or the unmorphed version of shards and both of them during a boss fight just feel... wrong... Masters of assassination and they use a 2h or s crossbow... sure does sound sneaky to me...

Definitely the magicka morph doesn't need to be nerfed as of currently (I like that you have to cast it) as then the whole class would just be bad in general, but rather buff up the main class stamina spammable or work around with the class passives to make using the class spammable a valid choice.

Zastrix · April 2023

TBH I'd be okay with the 10% damage increase to be moved to the base morph (but that you need to cast it to get the 10% icrease), keep the stamina version to have a guaranteed crit (although 1 in 4 seconds is still waaay to low) and make the magicka version have the speed increase.

There wouldn't be too much difference, the magicka one can be used in PvP to chase down enemies and the stamina one could be used then in PvE.

AndreNoir · April 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

TBH I'd be okay with the 10% damage increase to be moved to the base morph (but that you need to cast it to get the 10% icrease), keep the stamina version to have a guaranteed crit (although 1 in 4 seconds is still waaay to low) and make the magicka version have the speed increase.

There wouldn't be too much difference, the magicka one can be used in PvP to chase down enemies and the stamina one could be used then in PvE.

Yeah, lets trash mNB for making sNB the most overloaded spec in the game

birdik · April 2023

Dude)

Zastrix · April 2023

AndreNoir wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

TBH I'd be okay with the 10% damage increase to be moved to the base morph (but that you need to cast it to get the 10% icrease), keep the stamina version to have a guaranteed crit (although 1 in 4 seconds is still waaay to low) and make the magicka version have the speed increase.

There wouldn't be too much difference, the magicka one can be used in PvP to chase down enemies and the stamina one could be used then in PvE.

Yeah, lets trash mNB for making sNB the most overloaded spec in the game

I did say my preference as one of the options and I did recommend to move the 10% increase to the base morph so it'd still be the same from a MBs' perspective. Although I'd like more that SA gets something unique and to keep the 10% to the magblades.

Faulgor · April 2023

I think the best vector for adjustment is the guaranteed crit chance.
Even removing the cooldown entirely might not be too much compared to CW's 10% buff to all damage.

Zastrix · April 2023

Faulgor wrote: »

I think the best vector for adjustment is the guaranteed crit chance.
Even removing the cooldown entirely might not be too much compared to CW's 10% buff to all damage.

Yeah TBH. Currently as a khajiit full divines golden + The Thief I get around 60-75% crit on my stamblade on SA. That would boost my DPS by maybe 4K because it doesn't, as you said, affect other damage sources. If it gave a guaranteed crit constantly AND increase your crit chance by 2180 / 10% passively that MIGHT make a difference to be similar (I can't guarantee tho).

LittlePinkDot · April 2023

I dunno, my PvP stamblade uses Surprise attack just fine.

HushAzrael · April 2023

The magicka morph being a must cast is fine… but for the love of all things holy, make it ranged then!! Most mnb are running CW for the damage and in content, still have to run another ranged spammable. It’s annoying and a total waste of bar space, just to be able to play ranged.

StaticWave · April 2023

NBs need a nerf, not a buff lol

birdik · April 2023

HushAzrael wrote: »

The magicka morph being a must cast is fine… but for the love of all things holy, make it ranged then!! Most mnb are running CW for the damage and in content, still have to run another ranged spammable. It’s annoying and a total waste of bar space, just to be able to play ranged.

It s not fine

birdik · April 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I dunno, my PvP stamblade uses Surprise attack just fine.

And lose pretty amount of damage

P.s. sry read "pve stamblade", for pvp SA is fine

Zastrix · April 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

NBs need a nerf, not a buff lol

For PvE? It's underwhelming. With the changes, it's a game issue.

For PvP, learn how to counter nightblades, it's a skill issue.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2023

Personally, I don't understand why the are touching Veiled Strike at all. I understand why they are changing CW as it is supposed to be used as spamable & not a passive buff.

As for SA it is a very good class spamable. The only change it really needs (if any at all), is to fix a "flanking" bug as from what I understand it is not based on the position of the enemy, but rather the map coordinates (you can be flanking enemy, but the bonus won't work since you are facing north or something like that).

If any NB ability should use an update / buff then for sure it would be Consuming Darkness & morphs. This ability was decent when Major Protection was 30% and was a "hard to get" buff and there weren't many sources of it. Nowadays, the power creep caused that you can get Major Protection just by casually slotting Flare. Also it is 10% damage reduction and not 30%. Consuming Darkness & morphs would need a total rework.

Zastrix · April 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Personally, I don't understand why the are touching Veiled Strike at all. I understand why they are changing CW as it is supposed to be used as spamable & not a passive buff.

As for SA it is a very good class spamable. The only change it really needs (if any at all), is to fix a "flanking" bug as from what I understand it is not based on the position of the enemy, but rather the map coordinates (you can be flanking enemy, but the bonus won't work since you are facing north or something like that).

If any NB ability should use an update / buff then for sure it would be Consuming Darkness & morphs. This ability was decent when Major Protection was 30% and was a "hard to get" buff and there weren't many sources of it. Nowadays, the power creep caused that you can get Major Protection just by casually slotting Flare. Also it is 10% damage reduction and not 30%. Consuming Darkness & morphs would need a total rework.

Well stamblades currently are under-performing in PvE. How builds between u37 worked is that you would need the ulti always up, the 10% damage increase from the passive of CW and 10% damage from dizzying swing to get near the damage other classes currently do at the meta. With the new CW changes you would need to cast the CW spammable alongside the 2H spammable in order to keep damage, which would result in not enough mana during fights.

What needs to be done is that the SA needs to be altered to be viable again on stamina nightblade characters.

Edit:

It is also true that CD needs to be altered, but they're not mutually exclusive.

DrNukenstein · April 2023

I'm the biggest Surprise Attack enthusiast in the world, and I think it is so close to what it should be.

The only change I'd like to see is giving the guaranteed crit boosted crit damage or a 10% damage bonus to the skill while flanking. One or the other, both would push it over the line. You use it for that guaranteed crit after an incap. It's like an easier more reliable version of that combo that really tilts people when they die to it.

Zastrix · April 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'm the biggest Surprise Attack enthusiast in the world, and I think it is so close to what it should be.

The only change I'd like to see is giving the guaranteed crit boosted crit damage or a 10% damage bonus to the skill while flanking. One or the other, both would push it over the line. You use it for that guaranteed crit after an incap. It's like an easier more reliable version of that combo that really tilts people when they die to it.

I also love it but currently the situation of stamblades is so bad and just buffing SA itself isn't enough (although it needs to be buffed). I would still lose damage during exec when compared to CW and Dizzying swing.

kalunte · April 2023

beside of that very specific skill i'd like all stam morph to be looked at.

there was a time where WD was superior to SP and therefore some tooltips were lowered when comparing morphs (merciless resolve i'm pointing at YOU) that definatly needs a tweak in one way or another.

also i cant wait to be done with all of them "if you kill your target" buffs which are pointless.. i mean, you put your warning mark target on someone (which totally breaks the point of being stealthed in the first place) and you get a buff if the fight is a win anyway and get major berserk against... ghosts unless you're a crowd assassinator.
while dks get major berserk on a gapcloser.. yeah yeah.

focusing everything on one spamable when the entire kit is forked up unless using high burst thingy with cloak

Zastrix · April 2023

kalunte wrote: »

beside of that very specific skill i'd like all stam morph to be looked at.

there was a time where WD was superior to SP and therefore some tooltips were lowered when comparing morphs (merciless resolve i'm pointing at YOU) that definatly needs a tweak in one way or another.

also i cant wait to be done with all of them "if you kill your target" buffs which are pointless.. i mean, you put your warning mark target on someone (which totally breaks the point of being stealthed in the first place) and you get a buff if the fight is a win anyway and get major berserk against... ghosts unless you're a crowd assassinator.
while dks get major berserk on a gapcloser.. yeah yeah.

focusing everything on one spamable when the entire kit is forked up unless using high burst thingy with cloak

Touché.

kalunte · April 2023

coulé

emilyhyoyeon · April 2023

kalunte wrote: »

also i cant wait to be done with all of them "if you kill your target" buffs which are pointless.. i mean, you put your warning mark target on someone (which totally breaks the point of being stealthed in the first place) and you get a buff if the fight is a win anyway and get major berserk against... ghosts unless you're a crowd assassinator.
while dks get major berserk on a gapcloser.. yeah yeah.

focusing everything on one spamable when the entire kit is forked up unless using high burst thingy with cloak

StaticWave · April 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NBs need a nerf, not a buff lol

For PvE? It's underwhelming. With the changes, it's a game issue.

For PvP, learn how to counter nightblades, it's a skill issue.

Bold of you to assume I need to learn how to counter NBs. I have 10k hours of PvP, I'm pretty sure I know how to counter them. Doesn't take away from the fact that NB needs a nerf.

I haven't played NB in 2 years, hopped on it once and already started 1vXing. Here's a clip from 8 months ago with random skills on my bar.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU

Lavennin · April 2023

The 1000th time PvE suffers for PvP’s sake. For what gain? I imagine it’s much harder to balance both together. So why?

And I’d argue that movement speed is actually pretty good. I’d hate to lose it as a Stamblade. I just want a Concealed Weapon that consumes Stamina.

IAVITNI · April 2023

Lavennin wrote: »

The 1000th time PvE suffers for PvP’s sake. For what gain? I imagine it’s much harder to balance both together. So why?

And I’d argue that movement speed is actually pretty good. I’d hate to lose it as a Stamblade. I just want a Concealed Weapon that consumes Stamina.

This is a PvP buff...when most PvP players agree that NB, specifically CW is over-performing...

This has nothing to do with PvP and is clearly targeting PvE play style - they want the ability to be used as a spammable not a passive buff. If you tally it up, nerfs are likely evenly spread or close to a 50/50 split between PvE and PvP.

The closest PvP ever was to class balance was when stamblade was number one. They got nerfed (removed minor berserk) strictly because of PvE since it invalidated healers>Combat Prayer and magblades were the premier dps due to off heals from siphon and path.

The movement speed is relatively useless in PvP if SA provides a damage buff.

Zastrix · April 2023

IAVITNI wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

The 1000th time PvE suffers for PvP’s sake. For what gain? I imagine it’s much harder to balance both together. So why?

And I’d argue that movement speed is actually pretty good. I’d hate to lose it as a Stamblade. I just want a Concealed Weapon that consumes Stamina.

This is a PvP buff...when most PvP players agree that NB, specifically CW is over-performing...

This has nothing to do with PvP and is clearly targeting PvE play style - they want the ability to be used as a spammable not a passive buff. If you tally it up, nerfs are likely evenly spread or close to a 50/50 split between PvE and PvP.

The closest PvP ever was to class balance was when stamblade was number one. They got nerfed (removed minor berserk) strictly because of PvE since it invalidated healers>Combat Prayer and magblades were the premier dps due to off heals from siphon and path.

The movement speed is relatively useless in PvP if SA provides a damage buff.

At least the idea of this post is to buff SA for PvE reasons (as long as it's not empower, stamblades really DON'T NEED EMPOWER). For PvP a speed buff can ofc be usefull if you don't have a gap closer.

I do agree with the devs that the change for CW was needed to change it to real spammable rather than being used as a passive, but not how they completely ignored the stamina version of it. Give it something to perform similar to CW or just give it another buff completely, like a guaranteed crit and an additional 10% crit chance all throughout as just altering SA isn't enough I guess, although I might be wrong, can't know until I parse.

Edit: I meant after potential SA changes. Currently on pts week 2 I'm doing roughly the same damage as on live.

IAVITNI · April 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

The movement speed is relatively useless in PvP if SA provides a damage buff.

At least the idea of this post is to buff SA for PvE reasons (as long as it's not empower, stamblades really DON'T NEED EMPOWER). For PvP a speed buff can ofc be usefull if you don't have a gap closer.

My point was that if a PvP player had to choose between 15% movement speed and 10% damage, it's always 10% damage. Or even 5%. It's relatively useless to have a speed vs damage morph choice. Both PvE and PvP prioritize damage outside of extreme scenarios such as a speed meta (which we should never go back to).

Buffing SA is a bit nuanced. Arguably we are in a tank meta because survivability is to high. and odds of a survivability nerf equally as high. If that nerf happens, NB damage goes from high to overpowered.

A better move is to remove the off balance from CW. The ability is so overloaded already. The end result is essentially beefed up WB vs Dizzy, bringing the power of both abilities in-line with others.

I do think classes like DK and warden need a survivability nerf and would only advocate for a NB damage nerf if the other top classes get hit defensively, where the goal would be that NB maintains the same kill threat/pressure on these classes (i.e. no change). This lowers the ceiling, bringing class balance as a whole more in line, without affect the balance of power amongst the top three classes.

As an aside, Molten Whip needs a slight damage nerf (again just remove off-balance). I'd keep everything else the same, assuming Corrosive is tweaked (tbh this should be reverted back to DoTs only, which would probably balance this ability outright based on the current state of DoTs).

This also means that only small adjustments are needed for classes like templar and sorc. Necro probably needs a bit of a revamp since that class is broken mechanically, whereas the other two are simply lacking stat density to be competitive.

If nb needs buffs in PvE damage-wise, this can occur on Path or other abilities that are essentially PvE exclusive.