Let sap essence's heal scale with damage done already

Jeezye · April 2023

Thx.

This has been a weird oversight for years and makes the heal increadibly weak and lackluster compared to DK draw essence, or its morph alternative which provide 2 increadible strong (de)buffs.

ketsparrowhawk · April 2023

Would also be nice if the major damage buff applied upon casting rather than upon dealing damage.

OBJnoob · April 2023

It already heals more the more damage it does, in that it heals 20% more per enemy hit. Or am I remembering the skill wrong? Anyway I understand you want the base value to scale higher with weapon damage basically, but I just thought I'd point out that the heal does increase.

And as far as the alternative morph goes... It hasn't been that way for long. Sap essence was the only thing used for the longest time.

And I saved this comment for last because I suppose it's a little petty but... Does the 2nd best pvp class, OP as it is, really need tools to work "better the way a DK skill does" when DK is in desperate need of being reined in?

Vaqual · April 2023

It is a bit annoying when fair discussions about adjusting morphs are always brought back to overall class performance. The strength of ability x shouldn't determine the limits for ability y if there is no direct synergy. NB has a lot of decent skills, no question, but if the underperforming/redundant skills are not brought up to baseline there are even less options, making it hard to avoid the overloaded options.

NB performs at a high level due to its burst potential, which solely relies on spec bow. Adjusting sap essence healing will not aggravate this (not that I am advocating for that, just making a point). Of course everything can be taken to the extreme, so lets consider a sensible adjustment. People who play without spec bow will find themselves at a disadvantage then, if every class would be balanced only around their highest performing aspect.

Every class has dead morphs, especially since the hybridisation. Ideally all morphs should have a vision/purpose that is not overshadowed by the other morph or a non-class ability.
I think sap essence is in that weird spot where it is behind power extraction in so many aspects (damage type, minor courage, minor cowardice, not considering resource type, that is the builds responsibility). And this is balanced out by a puny heal, that is only situationally worth the resource cost.

Thematically I dont think it should be an AoE heal anyway, since you are drawing essence in, but that is another story.
Something should be done with it, but I am also not sure what. Scaling with damage done would still be dependent on the amount of enemies hit, so I dont't feel that this is ideal either.

Jeezye · April 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

It already heals more the more damage it does, in that it heals 20% more per enemy hit. Or am I remembering the skill wrong? Anyway I understand you want the base value to scale higher with weapon damage basically, but I just thought I'd point out that the heal does increase.

And as far as the alternative morph goes... It hasn't been that way for long. Sap essence was the only thing used for the longest time.

And I saved this comment for last because I suppose it's a little petty but... Does the 2nd best pvp class, OP as it is, really need tools to work "better the way a DK skill does" when DK is in desperate need of being reined in?

Scaling in damage done is better for a variety of reasons: counterplay by blocking and alternative ways of mitigation and rewarding building into damage instead of getting a guaranteed (low) healing regardless of damage done.

As to your latest comment: nbs are strong atm, but only in a very specific playstyle and only because some skills like conceiled, draw essence, ambush and bow are very overloaded.

In fact anything outside this playstyle like ranged swallow playstyles are not competitive at all.

emilyhyoyeon · April 2023

My main character is in PVP a ranged swallow NB who also doesn't use stealth (all for RP reasons, I know I bring this upon myself). I'd really like a sap essence buff/rework. The siphoning skills are my favorite part of the NB kit thematically and the reason why it's my favorite class.

I think the points Vaqual made are really important to consider in terms of fear of ''buffing'' an already strong class.

I also play my NB on all roles in PVE (dungeons, trials) and solo. There are so few instances I can think of where the heal scaling off enemies hit (vs something like damage done) is useful. The cowardice alone makes the power extraction morph blow sap essence out of the water in terms of PVE usefulness for both tanks and healers, let alone the courage.

Nebula_DooM · April 2023

I believe the only reason this skill is not like draw essence is cause nightblade's were notorious for sap tanking back in the day. You could kill people or monsters while also healing for full. Although the devs have said it multiple times that the game has changed since then so I am not opposed to the idea that it be changed somewhat to its former self. Like @OBJnoob pointed out, the heal already scales per enemy hit with a maximum of 6 targets, either make it unlimited or increase the scaling bonus

Medicate · April 2023

It's a full scale AoE ability so i don't see the point of buffing it even further in points of heal, as this is a bonus, not it's core function.
NB has many other powerful heals already in it's arsenal. So i doubt that a healing buff on sap essence is not needed imo

OBJnoob · April 2023

Jeezye wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It already heals more the more damage it does, in that it heals 20% more per enemy hit. Or am I remembering the skill wrong? Anyway I understand you want the base value to scale higher with weapon damage basically, but I just thought I'd point out that the heal does increase.

And as far as the alternative morph goes... It hasn't been that way for long. Sap essence was the only thing used for the longest time.

And I saved this comment for last because I suppose it's a little petty but... Does the 2nd best pvp class, OP as it is, really need tools to work "better the way a DK skill does" when DK is in desperate need of being reined in?

Scaling in damage done is better for a variety of reasons: counterplay by blocking and alternative ways of mitigation and rewarding building into damage instead of getting a guaranteed (low) healing regardless of damage done.

As to your latest comment: nbs are strong atm, but only in a very specific playstyle and only because some skills like conceiled, draw essence, ambush and bow are very overloaded.

In fact anything outside this playstyle like ranged swallow playstyles are not competitive at all.

I would argue that the ONLY spec of NB not doing incredibly well is Swallow Soul rangeblades. Otherwise... They can gank, they can bomb, they can brawl. They can kill, they can tank, they can heal, and they can poof.

Nobody else can do all that-- not even DK.

So. I'm just going to assume you're mostly talking about PvE and let you have your discussion.

My only final comment before I leave and agree to disagree is just that... power extraction got changed to be useful what, a year ago? Maybe less? Before that every NB that slotted the skill at all used sap essence. So, to me, it isn't as though it's a bad skill. It's just currently the lesser morph. And again... It does, more or less, heal in proportion to damage done in that it heals more per target hit. So not based on your stats but literally based on damage done. Also, doesn't it heal nearby allies also?

I see absolutely no reason to buff it or NBs at all. If you want your max damage to benefit your healing then use shrewd offering. It's preposterously strong.

xDeusEJRx · April 2023

I would rather sap essence be given a secondary effect like a major or minor buff/debuff than give it more healing. More healing is the last thing we need in pvp honestly.

I would loathe to see groups of DK and NB's running around in a ball group spamming deep breath and sap essence with a stronger heal.

emilyhyoyeon · April 2023

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I would rather sap essence be given a secondary effect like a major or minor buff/debuff than give it more healing. More healing is the last thing we need in pvp honestly.

I would loathe to see groups of DK and NB's running around in a ball group spamming deep breath and sap essence with a stronger heal.

I'd be happy to see it get minor courage instead of a heal buff. So the morphs would look like:
stam: courage + cowardice
mag: courage + heal