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Hybridization and it's Consequences.
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Zulera301✭✭✭✭✭I've been saying this for years. Hybridization was a mistake.
Most of my characters have been reclassed into crafters these days, apart from a couple of mains that had enough points to unlock the crafting skills without needing to ditch their combat skills.Shortly after the formation of the Ebonheart Pact, a Nord woman was given a tour of the Tribunal Temple. When later asked about the experience, she seemed upset. Suffice to say, the Dunmer were not pleased to hear this, and thus they inquired further.
"Well," the Nord frowned, "the priests were very angry and unwelcoming. They kept shouting things at me like "you can't drink that mead in here!" and "somebody stop her, she's running naked!" and "we can't catch her; she's covered in grease!""4 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I understand that endgame isnt the majority but I believe it is absolutely what the game should be balanced around. I could possibly be debated into changing my mind but atm I dont see any reason to balance the game around leveling or questing because balance really doesn't matter much there and those are generally just steps one takes toward endgame which whether a player ever reaches it or not is probably the goal in most cases. If they were more fair in their balancing of skills across mag and stam and didnt make 75% of class skills only have mag morphs and force stam to settle for weapon skills as they did in the past then we wouldn't have had a need for it. I could see leaving passives on weapons and armor hybrid but skills should have stayed. It was better when stam survived off of hots and dodge/block and mag had burst heals and shields imo
You would balance the entire game around 5% of the gaming community?!? IMO, balance shouldn't be done around any one particular situation but upon the entirety of the game. Let the 'end game' players balance themselves... if they choose to go with fewer options, that's on them. I've never cared for BIS, nor cared about 'keeping up with everyone else'. I play ESO strictly for the questing, so why would I want my game balanced based upon content that I don't even play?!?
Funny thing is, your opening line stated you understand endgame isn't the majority, but then state that leveling and questing are just steps towards endgame. So if the majority don't care about endgame, then clearly they don't see leveling and questing as just 'steps towards endgame'. I personally could care less about 'endgame' because I'll never run out of things to do in ESO that don't revolve around endgame. Between all my alts and the continuation of adding new quests, endgame is nowhere in my sights, and I know I'm not alone- hence the 'endgame isn't the majority'.CP: 2105 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025 | Returned: March 2026~~5 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the idea of hybrids, but they needed to do a lot more to balance the game BEFORE hand. Not after.0 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭I never used to have a problem with the fact that meta builds were all the same, wich they are atm, very roughly, but now the problem I have is that metabuilds, whichever class it is, is way ahead of anything dabbling in nonmeta builds so you cant rly play as you want anymore if you want to stay competitive. This is especially true for Gray Host etc, but also true for Ravenwatch.
I was honestly shocked that my werewolf that i made a year ago, was so bad now on gray host. And these absurd heavy attack builds who do half your health in damage with one click need to get out of this game aSaP1 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This was what players were saying when hybridization was being talked about. It turns classes, races, and weapons into cosmetic changes instead of actual differences. The perfect example is Nirn is a universal set for all DDs. That should not be the case in a game where there are this many classes.
In some instances, I like the hybridization, it has turned the Mag DK and Stam Sorc into a killing machines with two resource pools. But for the most part, other classes have suffered, like Templars and Stamblades. I wish it would go back2 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭As someone who used to enjoy playing MagSorc in PVP, I can wholeheartedly vouch for El Borracho's experience of what hybridization did to make StamSorc more powerful, and consequently, MagSorc unviable. Sorcerer is a great example of how hybridization eliminated/narrowed a class down to 1 option.
Every effective Sorc I see in PVP is running Master's Dual Wield front, and most of them Vateshran Ice Staff on back. Hurricane, Haunting Curse, maybe a frag if it procs, streak, spam Twin Slashes/blood craze. Rinse, repeat. This gear/combo constitutes 90% of Sorcs in PVP.
MagSorc has nothing to compare to the instant/rapid damage of spamming Twin slashes at close range (toss in Endless Fury, Hurricane, that second burst of Haunting Curse). Think you're going to streak away? Not from a Stam Sorc. Think you're going to spam Crushing Shock and return the damage/healing being done by Master's DW blood craze -- not even remotely close.
To be clear: I do not fault StamSorcs for all flocking to the best build & combo. My goal is simply to illustrate a specific example of how hybridization actually reduced our options for viable builds/playing styles.
I still play MagSorc sometimes, and do well against non-meta builds. But go up against a skilled player on a meta-build DK, NB, Warden, or StamSorc, and the entire fight is simply postponing the inevitable, or hoping a teammate shows up in time to save your bacon.
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wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The problem I see with hybridization is that it's created a lot of redundancy and Essentially useless trash to contend with.
I am talking in the game in general and not in any specific area.
When eso launched and before OT there were sets that were level specific and designed for each level, same for foods and enchants all the way up to cp 160. Crafting was awesome because sets would by pass this. Now with item set collections and reconstruction you bypass crafting.
Crafting right now is a mess, if it weren't for improvement items and housing it would be a joke. There are a ton of useless sets, recipes, pots, glyphs, and other items.
Crafting anything between cp 10 and cp 160 is almost pointless and gets done no more than once.
Jejota is so undesirable that it sells less than Ta on the markets.
Beyond being a completionist or leveling the skill one rarely crafts food beyond the few that are useful.
Many many item sets go unused.
Honestly, I feel that we are approaching a time where items either need to be rescaled to match current cp scaling with gear going from level 3 up to cp 1800, or the crafting system needs to be consolidated down to fewer items along the range of how jewelry is set up.
I also feel that with hybridization being what it is that light and medium armor should be broken out to require separate improvement item trees, the primary reason dreugh wax is in such demand is that it improves 2 of the 3 armor types and both are more useful than heavy. I also feel that weapons at the blacksmith should have a separate improvement item from heavy armor.0 -
CrashTest✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meta PvE endgame has always been only a few sets, so nothing has changed there.
The main difference between then and now isn't the number of sets but that mag and stam chars are virtually the same now.
I'm still not sure how I feel about it. Sometimes, I like it bc I don't have to have two different characters to have a mag and stam dps for the same class anymore, but then I don't like it bc most of my mag toons are in dw and 2h to get the most damage instead of using staff mag weapons.3 -
MagicalLija✭✭✭✭✭I always loved the super distinct playstyles between both stamina and magicka. Now everything just feels the same and feels boring, it caused me to switch from dps to healing just because I like the singular archetype more now.3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Even as a tank main i hate it. Resources management on both stam and mag was more or less just a tank thing.
Hybrid meta make tanks feel less unique.4 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭so...basically nothing has changed
the "meta" doesn't really matter to most players, but a shift from 2 meta builds (stam and mag) to 1 good build (hybrid) really isn't that much of a difference, in comparison to the huge change hybridization presents for players playing at a lower level. now a lot more combinations of skills are, while not "the best thing", much more viable.
so when you say the "play as you want" philosophy has been damaged, i wonder if you are playing a completely different game to me. and maybe you are, maybe you exclusively play at the highest level of play and so you feel you've been pidgeonholed into using "the best thing"
but, if that is the case, and i do realise it's an assumption on my part, try to remember that there are more people who play this game than endgame players, and that players focused on using "the best thing" make up a very small portion of the playerbase
The mid tier diversity is also at an all time low. Now it’s half the player near median level just oakensoul lighting staff heavy attack, you can’t even tell what class they playing half the time.
IMO, hybrid meta was requested by mostly bottom tier players, and it drastically increased skill gap between median and 1st percentile.
Now many median players would rather oakensoul than actually manage 8 dots and 2 resources. And once again the median dd does at least 2x dps of a 90th percentile dd.1 -
Auzsi✭✭✭El_Borracho wrote: »This was what players were saying when hybridization was being talked about. It turns classes, races, and weapons into cosmetic changes instead of actual differences. The perfect example is Nirn is a universal set for all DDs. That should not be the case in a game where there are this many classes.
In some instances, I like the hybridization, it has turned the Mag DK and Stam Sorc into a killing machines with two resource pools. But for the most part, other classes have suffered, like Templars and Stamblades. I wish it would go back
They are homogenized not cosmetic. Which means they are feels the same but there will be a single one which produces the highest number and you will just always going to pick that. Take races as an example. There is no reason to use anything but dunmer (part of the reason i left the game) if you rolling a damage dealer. The rest are the same but worse. Same with weapons where you always end up dual wielding regardless of your class and build. This is a lot worse than being cosmetic only. In my opinion Meta gaming in eso was never fun (it can be super punishing) or diverse and with Hybridization they doubled down on it.2 -
Auzsi✭✭✭I understand that endgame isnt the majority but I believe it is absolutely what the game should be balanced around. I could possibly be debated into changing my mind but atm I dont see any reason to balance the game around leveling or questing because balance really doesn't matter much there and those are generally just steps one takes toward endgame which whether a player ever reaches it or not is probably the goal in most cases. If they were more fair in their balancing of skills across mag and stam and didnt make 75% of class skills only have mag morphs and force stam to settle for weapon skills as they did in the past then we wouldn't have had a need for it. I could see leaving passives on weapons and armor hybrid but skills should have stayed. It was better when stam survived off of hots and dodge/block and mag had burst heals and shields imo
You would balance the entire game around 5% of the gaming community?!? IMO, balance shouldn't be done around any one particular situation but upon the entirety of the game. Let the 'end game' players balance themselves... if they choose to go with fewer options, that's on them. I've never cared for BIS, nor cared about 'keeping up with everyone else'. I play ESO strictly for the questing, so why would I want my game balanced based upon content that I don't even play?!?
Funny thing is, your opening line stated you understand endgame isn't the majority, but then state that leveling and questing are just steps towards endgame. So if the majority don't care about endgame, then clearly they don't see leveling and questing as just 'steps towards endgame'. I personally could care less about 'endgame' because I'll never run out of things to do in ESO that don't revolve around endgame. Between all my alts and the continuation of adding new quests, endgame is nowhere in my sights, and I know I'm not alone- hence the 'endgame isn't the majority'.
If you not doing end game or group content then balance should be 100% irrelevant for you. They should balance there game mostly around end game, since that's the only community which is ruly affected by it. Outside of dungeons and trials everything is so easy that your companion can complete it alone while you are cooking in the kitchen. You can do any build and it will work, it will feels powerful. Also the goal of the devs was (partially) to incrase the number of players participating in end game activities Recent combat changes were mostly done to reduce the barrier needed to enter into endgame and make meta gaming less punishing. It had a huge cost, at the same time it wasn't a complete success imo.Edited by Auzsi on April 12, 2023 8:19PM5 -
WittyWindwalker✭✭✭I understand that endgame isnt the majority but I believe it is absolutely what the game should be balanced around. I could possibly be debated into changing my mind but atm I dont see any reason to balance the game around leveling or questing because balance really doesn't matter much there and those are generally just steps one takes toward endgame which whether a player ever reaches it or not is probably the goal in most cases. If they were more fair in their balancing of skills across mag and stam and didnt make 75% of class skills only have mag morphs and force stam to settle for weapon skills as they did in the past then we wouldn't have had a need for it. I could see leaving passives on weapons and armor hybrid but skills should have stayed. It was better when stam survived off of hots and dodge/block and mag had burst heals and shields imo
You would balance the entire game around 5% of the gaming community?!? IMO, balance shouldn't be done around any one particular situation but upon the entirety of the game. Let the 'end game' players balance themselves... if they choose to go with fewer options, that's on them. I've never cared for BIS, nor cared about 'keeping up with everyone else'. I play ESO strictly for the questing, so why would I want my game balanced based upon content that I don't even play?!?
Funny thing is, your opening line stated you understand endgame isn't the majority, but then state that leveling and questing are just steps towards endgame. So if the majority don't care about endgame, then clearly they don't see leveling and questing as just 'steps towards endgame'. I personally could care less about 'endgame' because I'll never run out of things to do in ESO that don't revolve around endgame. Between all my alts and the continuation of adding new quests, endgame is nowhere in my sights, and I know I'm not alone- hence the 'endgame isn't the majority'.
If you not doing end game or group content then balance should be 100% irrelevant for you. They should balance there game mostly around end game, since that's the only community which is ruly affected by it. Outside of dungeons and trials everything is so easy that your companion can complete it alone while you are cooking in the kitchen. You can do any build and it will work, it will feels powerful. Also the goal of the devs was (partially) to incrase the number of players participating in end game activities Recent combat changes were mostly done to reduce the barrier needed to enter into endgame and make meta gaming less punishing. It had a huge cost, at the same time it wasn't a complete success imo.
I don't think a finer point could be made here Auzsi with regard to balance and end gaming. I'd humbly add that hybridization has always existed for everyone in casual play. Quest, roll play and do it however you want. Simply put more points into the off resource (or even make it 50/50) and slot whatever the heck you want. I think it's great ESO allows for us all to play how we want.
As I've stated for me, and this is just my opinion, I hate hybridization. FULL STOP.*Windwalkers*We are 100% committed to these principles:RespectIntegrityGuild UnityWe are a close band of gaming friends who are committed to excellence in these principles, free from discrimination and bias of race, creed, color, religion, sexual identity, gender, national origin, ethnicity, and social-economic status. Our principles define us, and our freedoms are not exhaustive.https://twitch.tv/wittywindwalker3 -
Vrienda✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nothing changed then. Even back in Lower Craglorn days there was a meta.Desperate for Roleplaying servers to bring open world non-organised RP to Elder Scrolls Online. Please ZOS.2 -
ixthUA✭✭✭✭✭
Trial finder (pug) should be the first step to bring population into endgame.If you not doing end game or group content then balance should be 100% irrelevant for you. They should balance there game mostly around end game, since that's the only community which is ruly affected by it. Outside of dungeons and trials everything is so easy that your companion can complete it alone while you are cooking in the kitchen. You can do any build and it will work, it will feels powerful. Also the goal of the devs was (partially) to incrase the number of players participating in end game activities Recent combat changes were mostly done to reduce the barrier needed to enter into endgame and make meta gaming less punishing. It had a huge cost, at the same time it wasn't a complete success imo.1 -
Auzsi✭✭✭
Trial finder (pug) should be the first step to bring population into endgame.If you not doing end game or group content then balance should be 100% irrelevant for you. They should balance there game mostly around end game, since that's the only community which is ruly affected by it. Outside of dungeons and trials everything is so easy that your companion can complete it alone while you are cooking in the kitchen. You can do any build and it will work, it will feels powerful. Also the goal of the devs was (partially) to incrase the number of players participating in end game activities Recent combat changes were mostly done to reduce the barrier needed to enter into endgame and make meta gaming less punishing. It had a huge cost, at the same time it wasn't a complete success imo.
And a dungeon journual. Instead we got Hybridization and u35.2