Lancer1602 wrote: »

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Some people treat trifectas / HMs / etc as an Achievement ( which it is called in the game ). Current HA Oakensorc builds completely nullify this, as every dungeon and arena trifecta becomes so easy - you can literally do it one handed. Which makes the game very boring, as it feels like playing with cheat codes. Where wearing that magic ring - gives you infinite sustain - better survivability - amazing damage while pressing down LMB and so on. \

Yes - it does provide accessibility for people who are limited physically due to whatever reason, but it also makes content extremely boring for everyone else.

No, I'm looking at it from my angle. It's not wrong just because it's different from yours.

Zezin wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by you logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

And you forget to say: All players can use Oakensoul but not all players can do 120k or almost 130k if play with DK.
And ofc... You will not get this numbers with oakensoul.

Right, i'm still waiting someone proving that they can get a 100k single target HA parse without a dummy cheese build. Everyone is claiming that it exists and need to stop, nobody has ever shown that it even exists.

For those of you unaware what a "cheese build" is: Trial dummies are having tons of buffs and debuffs and people are making builds around that. As an example they don't care about Armor Penetration as the dummy provides so much that they simply ignore it and use other damage raising CP instead of Force of Nature, something they would really need for let's say a Trial.

That's cheesing the dummy and getting fake parses. Even if you reach 100k with that it's simply not possible if you would use your regular Trial build but nobody is doing that as it would result in much lower numbers. Don't take everything as a fact simply because someone shows you a number, there's always a story behind it.

Let me clear some things up for you, you're saying that parsing by optimizing around the dummy is cheesing, well... THEN EVERY SINGLE PARSE VIDEO OF 100K ABOVE IS PRETTY MUCH CHEESING

Yes, you're absolutely right with this one. That's why i "only" parse 95k with my regular setup and that's totally fine for me.

Zezin wrote: »

the focus is to get as much dps with the resources you have available to you, a good player learns to do this not only on the dummy but in content as well

You can't "learn" more Penetration, you either bring it with you one way or the other or it's simply missing.

Zezin wrote: »

some people(like myself) have individual setups for EVERY SINGLE TRIAL BOSS in the game

And you use none of that to parse. If you want real numbers you should try that, i've never been a friend of those bloated fake parss.

Zezin wrote: »

the damage we achieve by doing this is the fruit of a lot of effort, I have more sets in my bank than what I can hold on my characters inventory(over 300 pieces of gear) all of it with specific purposes.

Good, it's very nice of you to always help out as best as you can.

Zezin wrote: »

People also seem to forget that other classes exist besides templar and DKs, have you tried bringing a Necromancer to one of the new dungeons?

I did. As a tank. Both dungeons on vet.

Zezin wrote: »

let me tell you something, in pretty much any of the new content in the game the boss doesn't stay still on top of our damage, but guess which build has zero problems with that? HA.

So what? You can't blame mobs for moving and playing a build with lot of ground DOT's in melee range in a highly mobile fight isn't anyones fault but your decision. Do you remember fire staff meta and why you switched away? You can still use range builds outside of HA and get higher damage numbers with it.

Zezin wrote: »

With that in mind and the sheer effort required to master combat can people really not see how it pisses people off that Empower builds are doing as much as they are without having to put little to no thought into it?

You stood there with a fire staff not long ago and no one blamed you for using it because "it takes less effort and is way easier to play than melee". HA builds are only that good because the concept is relatively simple so people can focus on what's going on more.

Let me tell you a little story: I'm leading beginner Trials for almost two years now, normal and veteran. Since HA OS became a viable option we've been able to clear content people could only dream of not long ago. Most of them are of higher age and can't keep up with 2 bar rotations due to various limitations.
Just about yesterday we did vSO with HM with relative ease at the final boss. They were so happy, so thankful to get this done. They enjoyed it and really cheered uppon completion. HA buils made them anle to actually look at the game, see what's going on and reacting to it. Before they were so tangled up in their "rotation" that they always died as they simply can't do it at the same time no matter how hard they try.

Those are the people who will get hurt by a nerf. Those people, not the ones who already play 2 bar rotations to near perfection and simply switched to HA because it's even easier with still good enough results.
It's not the older, not the disabled people getting the trifecta runs but the ones without any limitations (in most cases) who just want it the easier way. It's not an item being broken but people attitude.

Zezin wrote: »

Patch after patch we got hit with nerf after nerf, LAs got nerfed so many times I can't even remember anymore, our skills got gutted, the sets we use nerfed one after the other. You say the top end did not get gutted? Have you really forgotten U35 already? Just because Zenimax buffed the crap out of the 21mill dummy doesn't mean we'll forget the 30% slap in the face we got during that patch."

Even with all the so called nerfs the damage is higher than ever before. Even factoring in the dummy nerf people are parsing 148k and above. You always call out the nerfs but never mention the buffs you're getting one way ot the other. You just take them as a given, but that's a two way street.

Zezin wrote: »

If Zenimax wants to remove skilled gameplay out of the game that is fine, just don't expect to keep the players that are here for it.

Nobody is removing skilled gameplay as you call it, there's just another contender in town now and it feels like you can't stand that. Competition stimulates business. If you want to stay on top show that you're worth it with your 2 bar style.

Zezin wrote: »

edit: first of let me apologize for how I came out in this, I tend to go off when I'm in a bad mood, which is very much the case, also while I said that there's little to no thought into HA builds that is not entirely sure, I myself in my own testing used different set combinations for different things however sergeants mail was always present, more specifically a lightning staff, that being said it's still no were near the amount of optimization needed for other types of builds with the amount of 5p sets that you need being at most 4(Noble, sergeant, unweaver and storm master).

It's not on me to judge you.

1. we're on agreement

2. OFC you can "learn" more penetration, that's why there's light armor and Force of nature, part of what I said about optimization is adjusting pen for your specific group, I will almost always use light armor for dungeons for example as alkosh and crimson are not a good option there.

3. Parses are meant to measure the players capacity to generate damage that's it, content is whole different beast.

4. Ok... this thread is about DPS tho.

5. I didn't know your wall of elements moved with the boss if you have a inferno front bar LuL, or are you suggesting I just spam force pulse? either way is less damage than a HA build. BTW I'm usually ranged on my dungeon builds, I do change it depending on the encounter tho, doesn't change the fact AOEs are becoming more and more useless.

6. I still use inferno, bow too, all depends on the encounter, that's the thing, I have to adjust, lightning just works on everything. No comment on the second part.

7. the last time I saw a 148k dps parse was with High Isle pts... on a oakensorc... most classes are on the 120~130k range but even then only for the people capable of that, I myself in all my time playing have never gone above 126k on any class, and that was with me cheesing the hell out of it(I had a build to pre buff lol), without the cheese it's usually under 120k.

Incidentally which buffs would you be talking about? Berserk on wrecking blow from last patch is the only that comes to mind, and with my connection and ping that spammable is a nightmare, I lose damage with it instead of gaining. Even then it's only used situationally as it doesn't have the best cleave damage which is very much needed for newer content.

8. 20 second dots? nerf to all damage over time so it's "easier to manage"? LA nerfs? Caps to crit damage and Light attack damage? need I go on?

9. k

2. That's not "learning" it but going away from the cheese build. Chances are you can translate most of the damageü to real fights but knowing how to cheese the dummy doesn't make me a good player.

3. Everyone should parse with their real fighting gear to make actual comparison possible. These so called "builds" out there are nothing but a "Who can cheese it better" and people actually that will fall short on all end.

4. I brought my DK Dagger + 2H and my HA builds there. First boss in Bal Sunnar is horror for every build, the second only real difference is in the Ox fight to get rid of the laser beams. Got no problems in any other regard.

5. + 6. Ground DOT's being less useful isn't the reason for switching to daggers. They are still in use, daggers just provide more Crit Chance than a fire staff. You can still get very good numbers with it, you just may switch away from almost only ground DOT's. There are a lot of encounters where they still work very well though.

And staying silent on who will be hurt most with a nerf isn't unmaking it.

7. YT is big, you can find anything there if you bother to look for it. And with those numbers of you on a non cheese build, numbers a HA OS build will never even come close to, you're way ahead of everything what is even needed to get things done. You're already overshoting by a long distance, 80k on all DD's is more than enough to get every trifecta run done. And there are HA builds without OS in that range too. The damage is just so high nowadays that it doesn't even matter how you achieve it.

8. That's not removing anything but changing it and slowing its pace down. It also opens room for other rotations that still need fast rotations aka high APM and are quite as effective. That's simply called "Shift of meta" and has always been there.

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

The problem is not as much trials as it is all the other content in the game(there's only 10 trials compared to the dozens of dungeons), trials for the most part(except vAS) still benefit more from 2 bars, it's in dungeons and arenas where it has become so, this wouldn't have been the case if U35 had never happened but it did, it unbalanced the game to where all ground based AOEs became very weak and those have always represented a large portion of PvE dps damage.

I guess I just didn't see why it matters so much in 4-man content, since as I understood it the ring was intended for small groups where there wouldn't be so many buffs. But I suppose it's just that we are still talking chalk and cheese since you likely mean hard modes and speed runs and I'm thinking about just being able to do DLC dungeons in a duo with 2 companions.

It's a shame if what constitutes basic access to content for me is implemented in such a way that it negatively affects you.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Some people treat trifectas / HMs / etc as an Achievement ( which it is called in the game ). Current HA Oakensorc builds completely nullify this, as every dungeon and arena trifecta becomes so easy - you can literally do it one handed. Which makes the game very boring, as it feels like playing with cheat codes. Where wearing that magic ring - gives you infinite sustain - better survivability - amazing damage while pressing down LMB and so on. \

Yes - it does provide accessibility for people who are limited physically due to whatever reason, but it also makes content extremely boring for everyone else.

Noone is forcing *you* to play with it, so your achievements are not diminished

And arguing that someone would not understand achievements seems a bit like a strawman. Everyone has their own achievements of what they do within their limits.

Again, really wrong point of view. Why would someone deliberately choose a more difficult route? Also, people who enjoy Oak HA gameplay are just people who like everything handed to them on a silver platter. Since they are afraid of trying harder and since devs gave them an easy route - they all ran straight there. The only exclusion is people who have physical trauma / etc.

I really dont get it why PVE should be that accessible to everyone and that content has to be that easy. Like what is even a point then? Imagine if dark souls for example would be so easy - you could beat any boss with a few clicks of a mouse button.
Or if that race in mafia 1 would be so easy - you could do it blindfolded. Why are people are so afraid of a challenge? I just honestly don`t get it.

I HEAVILY disagree with what you're saying, you should not encompass a whole portion of the playerbase like that, you started right, "why would someone choose a more difficult route?" and then you went the wrong way about it, it's a matter of balance and reward/effort not being handed stuff on a silver platter.

For new players and people who don't interact/practice the meta this is a matter of giving up power, I've said this many times HA builds are just plain better RN than 2h builds for 90% of content.

Also I would highly recommend you don't bash people based on what they choose to run on their characters, it's plain wrong and leads to nothing but toxicity, it's why I'm here asking for nerfs to empower and adjustments to HA instead of anything else, I would never for example deny a spot in a group to someone based on their gear as long as they can perform.

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

The problem is not as much trials as it is all the other content in the game(there's only 10 trials compared to the dozens of dungeons), trials for the most part(except vAS) still benefit more from 2 bars, it's in dungeons and arenas where it has become so, this wouldn't have been the case if U35 had never happened but it did, it unbalanced the game to where all ground based AOEs became very weak and those have always represented a large portion of PvE dps damage.

I guess I just didn't see why it matters so much in 4-man content, since as I understood it the ring was intended for small groups where there wouldn't be so many buffs. But I suppose it's just that we are still talking chalk and cheese since you likely mean hard modes and speed runs and I'm thinking about just being able to do DLC dungeons in a duo with 2 companions.

It's a shame if what constitutes basic access to content for me is implemented in such a way that it negatively affects you.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Some people treat trifectas / HMs / etc as an Achievement ( which it is called in the game ). Current HA Oakensorc builds completely nullify this, as every dungeon and arena trifecta becomes so easy - you can literally do it one handed. Which makes the game very boring, as it feels like playing with cheat codes. Where wearing that magic ring - gives you infinite sustain - better survivability - amazing damage while pressing down LMB and so on. \

Yes - it does provide accessibility for people who are limited physically due to whatever reason, but it also makes content extremely boring for everyone else.

Noone is forcing *you* to play with it, so your achievements are not diminished

And arguing that someone would not understand achievements seems a bit like a strawman. Everyone has their own achievements of what they do within their limits.

Again, really wrong point of view. Why would someone deliberately choose a more difficult route? Also, people who enjoy Oak HA gameplay are just people who like everything handed to them on a silver platter. Since they are afraid of trying harder and since devs gave them an easy route - they all ran straight there. The only exclusion is people who have physical trauma / etc.

I really dont get it why PVE should be that accessible to everyone and that content has to be that easy. Like what is even a point then? Imagine if dark souls for example would be so easy - you could beat any boss with a few clicks of a mouse button.
Or if that race in mafia 1 would be so easy - you could do it blindfolded. Why are people are so afraid of a challenge? I just honestly don`t get it.

Everyones point of view is different. There is no wrong point of view So I am not sure if you are just trying to offend here, it does not come across as an honest argument. But I'll bite.

And many games do provide different types of game play, high/low APM for different classes / builds. Some prefer lower APM, some prefer high APM/Piano playstyle. Neither is right or wrong. It is just a matter of taste.

Similiarly some prefer hard content, as clearly you do, some dont. Again, neither is right and wrong. And to make a successful MMO you likely should cater to both groups, though typically casual players are more numerous, so from a financial point of view, just catering to the hard core group does not make so much sense.

(And as you say, there are no shortage of games that are designed to be more difficult, for those who enjoy that)

Yes - there is a lot of less challenging content in this game. Thousands of quests, openworld world bosses, housing, group zones in craglorn, dolmens, volcanos, this list goes on and on and on. While the only challenging parts are hard modes of the DLC dungeons and the trials. So why the hard content should have an easy route, just because people who dont enjoy a challenge - want that tiny bit of content made easy for them? Please enjoy the other 95% of the game. Imagine if tables were turned and every dungeon - even base game fungal grotto would be extremely hard, what would you say then?

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Again, really wrong point of view. Why would someone deliberately choose a more difficult route? Also, people who enjoy Oak HA gameplay are just people who like everything handed to them on a silver platter. Since they are afraid of trying harder and since devs gave them an easy route - they all ran straight there. The only exclusion is people who have physical trauma / etc.

I really dont get it why PVE should be that accessible to everyone and that content has to be that easy. Like what is even a point then? Imagine if dark souls for example would be so easy - you could beat any boss with a few clicks of a mouse button.
Or if that race in mafia 1 would be so easy - you could do it blindfolded. Why are people are so afraid of a challenge? I just honestly don`t get it.

You said it yourself, you find the easy route boring, but apparently you want it to not exist to make ensure people play the harder (better) way. So I don't really get your argument either. Angles, am I right?

I hope that by the time you are old and feeble people will have changed your opinion on PvE accessibility. You might be wanting some options yourself

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

The problem is not as much trials as it is all the other content in the game(there's only 10 trials compared to the dozens of dungeons), trials for the most part(except vAS) still benefit more from 2 bars, it's in dungeons and arenas where it has become so, this wouldn't have been the case if U35 had never happened but it did, it unbalanced the game to where all ground based AOEs became very weak and those have always represented a large portion of PvE dps damage.

I guess I just didn't see why it matters so much in 4-man content, since as I understood it the ring was intended for small groups where there wouldn't be so many buffs. But I suppose it's just that we are still talking chalk and cheese since you likely mean hard modes and speed runs and I'm thinking about just being able to do DLC dungeons in a duo with 2 companions.

It's a shame if what constitutes basic access to content for me is implemented in such a way that it negatively affects you.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Some people treat trifectas / HMs / etc as an Achievement ( which it is called in the game ). Current HA Oakensorc builds completely nullify this, as every dungeon and arena trifecta becomes so easy - you can literally do it one handed. Which makes the game very boring, as it feels like playing with cheat codes. Where wearing that magic ring - gives you infinite sustain - better survivability - amazing damage while pressing down LMB and so on. \

Yes - it does provide accessibility for people who are limited physically due to whatever reason, but it also makes content extremely boring for everyone else.

Noone is forcing *you* to play with it, so your achievements are not diminished

And arguing that someone would not understand achievements seems a bit like a strawman. Everyone has their own achievements of what they do within their limits.

Again, really wrong point of view. Why would someone deliberately choose a more difficult route? Also, people who enjoy Oak HA gameplay are just people who like everything handed to them on a silver platter. Since they are afraid of trying harder and since devs gave them an easy route - they all ran straight there. The only exclusion is people who have physical trauma / etc.

I really dont get it why PVE should be that accessible to everyone and that content has to be that easy. Like what is even a point then? Imagine if dark souls for example would be so easy - you could beat any boss with a few clicks of a mouse button.
Or if that race in mafia 1 would be so easy - you could do it blindfolded. Why are people are so afraid of a challenge? I just honestly don`t get it.

Everyones point of view is different. There is no wrong point of view So I am not sure if you are just trying to offend here, it does not come across as an honest argument. But I'll bite.

And many games do provide different types of game play, high/low APM for different classes / builds. Some prefer lower APM, some prefer high APM/Piano playstyle. Neither is right or wrong. It is just a matter of taste.

Similiarly some prefer hard content, as clearly you do, some dont. Again, neither is right and wrong. And to make a successful MMO you likely should cater to both groups, though typically casual players are more numerous, so from a financial point of view, just catering to the hard core group does not make so much sense.

(And as you say, there are no shortage of games that are designed to be more difficult, for those who enjoy that)

Yes - there is a lot of less challenging content in this game. Thousands of quests, openworld world bosses, housing, group zones in craglorn, dolmens, volcanos, this list goes on and on and on. While the only challenging parts are hard modes of the DLC dungeons and the trials. So why the hard content should have an easy route, just because people who dont enjoy a challenge - want that tiny bit of content made easy for them? Please enjoy the other 95% of the game. Imagine if tables were turned and every dungeon - even base game fungal grotto would be extremely hard, what would you say then?

Agreed that hard modes can be scaled up all the way to impossible, but not allowing a diverse set of builds to be competitive in normal / vet dungeons is a different matter.

I am all for having a wide range of difficulty, but there is significant effort put into dungeons/arenas/trials. So for the game community, it is beneficial if as many as possible (that are interested) can enjoy that content.

As a sidenote, at least in other MMOs, much of the bragging rights of clears came from doing them the first week. Clearing a raid a few months down the line once strategies had settled and gear had been optimized was significantly less challenging than doing them on release day. I imagine it is similar here, even if gear does not scale as heavily.

[snip]
Oakensoul allows people to compete with their teammates, the ring does allow you to be productive although not to the highest degree, the mechanics and the ability to follow them dictate whether the dungeon/trial is completed.
If your going to make a mythic item not be viable in a trial then do it to all of them.
Why not Spaulder of Ruin make it so it has to be taken off during one of the bosses or make it do damage to its user as wll as lowering your stats the longer its used.
People use mythics all the time pale order, wild hunt etc... don't make it impossible to to complete a trial using one when the user had to go to a great deal of effort to acquire it.

Oaensoul ring users have always been able to clear Cloudrest so stopping future users from doing so is [snip]!!!

[edited for baiting]

Except that I have a HA 2 bar build with less buttons than most Oakensoul builds use... AND.... I get the EXACT same result ......

The Oakenphobes have gotten so terrified of Oakencooties, that they see them where they aren't.

Seriously.... the majority of people against Oakensoul have fallen for click bait videos made in the hope of getting pre-U35 viewers back.

The new one, yesterday, for the bow build actually can be done without Oakensoul, and identical bars .... oh, and as someone so adroitly put it, the mechanic of looking at the screen and breathing....... but, putting Oakensoul in it means that the people who want to use it will click that bait.... and the ones that hate it will also click that bait... because they desperately want and need something to be outraged about.

I don't hear ANYONE upset about the Queen's Elegance set from Auridon.... a set so small, that you can trade it....
It gives 3 seconds of Empower, whenever you do damage, no cooldown. THERE you go, that, with Sergeant's mail, lightning, and the right CP's and skills.... surge every 33 seconds, and the fighter guild crit booster, that you don't even have to push.... and Daedric Prey with pets ..... and you get 83K easy on the dummy --- one key every 6 seconds, and one every 33.... on a side note, critical surge also heals you 50% of the time you hit, at least, where my crit is on it..... which, with a lightning heavy attack being 4 times, or about once a second, for a set amount of healing that is quite sufficient to hold you up in most situations... with maybe a potion, once in a while....
Meaning you can lean into the more damaging morphs of the pets..... AND, you can EASILY keep it up, so you get a HUGE chunk of that in any actual battle....

I built it on an Imperial.... so I get the extra tankiness from my racials....


And, if someone checks..... no Oakensoul..... did a recent trial with it, and managed 39K all the way through.
I mean, if you can't find Auridon on the map, you might have an issue getting this......

At this point, the people complaining about it are ignoring the real reason, deliberately.....
It's the synergy between Lightning Staves and Heavy Attack Boost armor sets ..... anyone actually looking at REAL results can see it.

I now have my fastest clear times on the above set for soloing dungeons .... same bar, front and back, because then, I don't have to stop and recharge a weapon .... flick and go....
I use one button every 33 seconds, and one every 6, on boss targets... don't need it the rest of the time, even....

Just hose and go.... and not a SINGLE Mythic in sight.....

At this point, the majority of the Oakensoul builds you see online are pretty much within racial passive margins of nearly identical builds without. But hitting that CLICKBAIT and then screaming is just so adictive.

Auldwulfe

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Agreed that hard modes can be scaled up all the way to impossible, but not allowing a diverse set of builds to be competitive in normal / vet dungeons is a different matter.

I am all for having a wide range of difficulty, but there is significant effort put into dungeons/arenas/trials. So for the game community, it is beneficial if as many as possible (that are interested) can enjoy that content.

So if the dungeons had Easy - Normal - Hard - Extreme - Impossible modes instead of Normal + Vet , people would not be moaning that Impossible mode is too difficult for them, and they want that being accessible to them?

In my opinion this would be a good solution to keep giving challenges even if DPS continues to creep up.

Though that is not really the core of the discussion here. The discussion here is that there should be lower APM / simpler rotations available that are also somewhat competitive.

Having a range of dungeon difficulty is no argument for saying that a 2 bar build should be mandatory for "Impossible". That is a matter of preference.

2 Bar build should not be mandatory, but also a low APM build should not be that powerful. There should be a good scaling.
Why in the world having LMB pressed down should be more effective than a guy playing a "piano" playstyle? Why would a guy who play a "piano" would even continue to do so, if his high effort is not rewarded at all? At this moment in the game , Oaken HA sorc is more effective than any other class. Since you can have 3 HA sorcs + tank and complete any trifecta in any dungeon without any challenge whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOHXhnouYl8

there , a group of people got a trifecta using 3 HA sorcs , while its their first ever time there for 2 of them. HA Oaken build gives you an infinite sustain - so you dont care about your resource management. Good survivability and matriarch + surge removes a need to have a healer there. And their damage for single target and AOE is higher than any 2bar class, since they dont need to look after their health/stamina/magicka and have 3 DPS players.

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Agreed that hard modes can be scaled up all the way to impossible, but not allowing a diverse set of builds to be competitive in normal / vet dungeons is a different matter.

I am all for having a wide range of difficulty, but there is significant effort put into dungeons/arenas/trials. So for the game community, it is beneficial if as many as possible (that are interested) can enjoy that content.

So if the dungeons had Easy - Normal - Hard - Extreme - Impossible modes instead of Normal + Vet , people would not be moaning that Impossible mode is too difficult for them, and they want that being accessible to them?

In my opinion this would be a good solution to keep giving challenges even if DPS continues to creep up.

Though that is not really the core of the discussion here. The discussion here is that there should be lower APM / simpler rotations available that are also somewhat competitive.

Having a range of dungeon difficulty is no argument for saying that a 2 bar build should be mandatory for "Impossible". That is a matter of preference.

2 Bar build should not be mandatory, but also a low APM build should not be that powerful. There should be a good scaling.
Why in the world having LMB pressed down should be more effective than a guy playing a "piano" playstyle? Why would a guy who play a "piano" would even continue to do so, if his high effort is not rewarded at all? At this moment in the game , Oaken HA sorc is more effective than any other class. Since you can have 3 HA sorcs + tank and complete any trifecta in any dungeon without any challenge whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOHXhnouYl8

there , a group of people got a trifecta using 3 HA sorcs , while its their first ever time there for 2 of them. HA Oaken build gives you an infinite sustain - so you dont care about your resource management. Good survivability and matriarch + surge removes a need to have a healer there. And their damage for single target and AOE is higher than any 2bar class, since they dont need to look after their health/stamina/magicka and have 3 DPS players.

the music OMG I'm dying hahahahaha

I had to click it to check the music, thats the best walkthrough vid music ever!

Oh good gods. I am really sadden that there are those on here that are arguing AGAINST this as - checks reasons - it allows more people to access harder stuff.

Why does that matter? Surely getting more people into endgame stuff is good for the game? My guild is having a blast organising 1bar sorc vet trials - and its not a HM no death clear, do have to still understand & deal with mechs - but its FUN. Some have trifecta clears already, some not, some are learning.
But, again, is FUN.

FUN. What a game should be 😁

[snip]

I bar sorcs are a breath of fresh air in the game. Please leave them alone.

[edited for baiting]