Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by your logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by you logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

And you forget to say: All players can use Oakensoul but not all players can do 120k or almost 130k if play with DK.
And ofc... You will not get this numbers with oakensoul.

Right, i'm still waiting someone proving that they can get a 100k single target HA parse without a dummy cheese build. Everyone is claiming that it exists and need to stop, nobody has ever shown that it even exists.

For those of you unaware what a "cheese build" is: Trial dummies are having tons of buffs and debuffs and people are making builds around that. As an example they don't care about Armor Penetration as the dummy provides so much that they simply ignore it and use other damage raising CP instead of Force of Nature, something they would really need for let's say a Trial.

That's cheesing the dummy and getting fake parses. Even if you reach 100k with that it's simply not possible if you would use your regular Trial build but nobody is doing that as it would result in much lower numbers. Don't take everything as a fact simply because someone shows you a number, there's always a story behind it.

Why that build even exist and allowed to be played for so long without major nerf?

Its literally make all the skilled players look like joke .. literally all you have to do is wall then HA and you are top DPS from range and endless survival, no resource .. why??

Its like giving an answer to all the broken souls who cant get achievements a free pass to get all trifecta's, make them meaningless.

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by you logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

And you forget to say: All players can use Oakensoul but not all players can do 120k or almost 130k if play with DK.
And ofc... You will not get this numbers with oakensoul.

Right, i'm still waiting someone proving that they can get a 100k single target HA parse without a dummy cheese build. Everyone is claiming that it exists and need to stop, nobody has ever shown that it even exists.

For those of you unaware what a "cheese build" is: Trial dummies are having tons of buffs and debuffs and people are making builds around that. As an example they don't care about Armor Penetration as the dummy provides so much that they simply ignore it and use other damage raising CP instead of Force of Nature, something they would really need for let's say a Trial.

That's cheesing the dummy and getting fake parses. Even if you reach 100k with that it's simply not possible if you would use your regular Trial build but nobody is doing that as it would result in much lower numbers. Don't take everything as a fact simply because someone shows you a number, there's always a story behind it.

Like you say before. There's so much things around all dps.

All players know and agree with:

1. 2 bars give more DPS then any other build.
2. Best and strongest class is Dragon Knight.
3. Oakensoul have no place in any TOP team looking to push scores.
4. Onebar build is not better then any 2bars build. Not even one 2bars is worse the 1bar.
5. etc etc etc... Oakensoul is not better then 2bars in any situation.

All players know this, but they can't acept it:

• Oakensoul have more dps then 2bars, because 2bar players can't make rotation. That's why ZoS release Oakensoul item. To help all players with bad rotations.
• Oakensoul will be the strongest build in that group because all others have bad rotation.
• Oakensoul only have place in TOP teams if all are using it. Then they can push score as Oakenteam.
• Onebar build will be better then 2bars only if others can't make rotation. Oakensoul will be better... Because ZoS give oakensoul for players with bad rotation. That's why, oakensoul is better. ZoS are saying to you: "use Oakensoul if you have bad rotation."
• etc etc etc... If oakensoul is better then your build.... Mate, go train more or use it. Because ZoS did oakensoul to you. They did it for player like you and me. We can't make perfect rotations... ZoS give us Oakensoul.
• You have bad rotation and you're forcing others to stay bad? Why? They cannot have perfect rotations and they will never have place in top teams. But they can make harder content now.
• Why this is bad???

[snip] I would not bother replying to this and don't think anyone else should, you have been nothing but condescending to players on every single one of your comments.

[Edited for baiting]

Zezin wrote: »

the focus is to get as much dps with the resources you have available to you, a good player learns to do this not only on the dummy but in content as well, that's why some people(like myself) have individual setups for EVERY SINGLE TRIAL BOSS in the game, the damage we achieve by doing this is the fruit of a lot of effort, I have more sets in my bank than what I can hold on my characters inventory(over 300 pieces of gear) all of it with specific purposes.

Please take this comment in the mildest tone you can imagine. I am not trying to antagonize you further.

Okay. I can absolutely understand that many people such as yourself, take joy and satisfaction out of optimizing every boss, and 300 pieces of gear is a lot. I used to put a lot of effort (though not the sheer number of pieces, but professions and other consumables) into endgame in a previous MMO, and spend hours at practice dummies working on my rotations/prios to be able to bring my best to my raid group. But I can't do it anymore, and I don't want to either.

Nowadays I take joy out of a lot of things in ESO, and my bank doesn't have space for loads of gear and I certainly don't have the gold/resources to collect, upgrade, transmute a lot of pieces. Or patience, frankly. I would have more space and gold if I didn't spend my ingame resources on furnishings, materials and motifs. A HA build is easy to manage, and not your cup of tea, but it allows me to play and do the things I want without gear micromanagement and cramping fingers.

Respectfully, our interests are clearly not the same, it doesn't mean we can't coexist happily in the game. I don't think having space for people like me takes away space from you, or your accomplishments. No trial group is ever going to pick me, over you, and certainly if all the sorcs are running around trials playing as carelessly as has been implied elsewhere on the forum lately, I don't expect they'd be taking spots from you either.

Liguar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

the focus is to get as much dps with the resources you have available to you, a good player learns to do this not only on the dummy but in content as well, that's why some people(like myself) have individual setups for EVERY SINGLE TRIAL BOSS in the game, the damage we achieve by doing this is the fruit of a lot of effort, I have more sets in my bank than what I can hold on my characters inventory(over 300 pieces of gear) all of it with specific purposes.

Please take this comment in the mildest tone you can imagine. I am not trying to antagonize you further.

Okay. I can absolutely understand that many people such as yourself, take joy and satisfaction out of optimizing every boss, and 300 pieces of gear is a lot. I used to put a lot of effort (though not the sheer number of pieces, but professions and other consumables) into endgame in a previous MMO, and spend hours at practice dummies working on my rotations/prios to be able to bring my best to my raid group. But I can't do it anymore, and I don't want to either.

Nowadays I take joy out of a lot of things in ESO, and my bank doesn't have space for loads of gear and I certainly don't have the gold/resources to collect, upgrade, transmute a lot of pieces. Or patience, frankly. I would have more space and gold I I didn't spend my ingame resources on furnishings, materials and motifs. A HA build is easy to manage, and not your cup of tea, but it allows me to play and do the things I want without gear micromanagement and cramping fingers.

Respectfully, our interests are clearly not the same, it doesn't mean we can't coexist happily in the game. I don't think having space for people like me takes away space from you, or your accomplishments. No trial group is ever going to pick me, over you, and certainly if all the sorcs are running around trials playing as carelessly as has been implied elsewhere on the forum lately, I don't expect they'd be taking spots from you either.

The problem is not as much trials as it is all the other content in the game(there's only 10 trials compared to the dozens of dungeons), trials for the most part(except vAS) still benefit more from 2 bars, it's in dungeons and arenas where it has become so, this wouldn't have been the case if U35 had never happened but it did, it unbalanced the game to where all ground based AOEs became very weak and those have always represented a large portion of PvE dps damage.

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

[snip] I would not bother replying to this and don't think anyone else should, you have been nothing but condescending to players on every single one of your comments.

[snip]

wicked_prophet wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

If any HA build is making more DPS then you with 2bars, then the problem is your rotation\items. HA builds, will lose in dps everytime for players with perfect rotation. If you use 2bars and you do less DPS then HA builds go trainne your rotation.

Trainne more.

That is simply not true is some situations. I am what a lot of people would consider a "veteran player", having almost all trial trifectas including Planesbreaker and will (hopefully) soon have Swashbuckler as well. And i've done all of them as DD. So i don't think there is much more i can do to "train more". But doing dungeons - the difference between oakensoc and any other 2 bar build is insane. A good friend of mine, who is on a similar skill level as i am is doing the dungeon with me, and where i am doing 65K single target (while having unlimited sustain and 25K resistance, a ton of mitigation and 1 click all team full HP healing ability) he is doing 45K while struggling with sustain, and having 140+ CPM. Yes, oakensorcs do loose out in most trials to 2 bar builds (excluding vAS where they are still the most hard hitting build) - but in dungeons and 4ppl arenas they are insanely overpowered

This is true in any situation.

Very good 2bars rotation will beat oakensoul everytime everywhere.
Very good player with oakensoul (not all are so good) will never be better then 2bars pro player. Never!
Oakensoul build are better then players with bad rotation. That's why ZoS make Oakensoul. No?

And to add to that - i'd like to see how many people cleared Immortal Redeemer in a PUG with 3:02 fight time in 2 bar build

[edited quote]

Zezin wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by you logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

And you forget to say: All players can use Oakensoul but not all players can do 120k or almost 130k if play with DK.
And ofc... You will not get this numbers with oakensoul.

Right, i'm still waiting someone proving that they can get a 100k single target HA parse without a dummy cheese build. Everyone is claiming that it exists and need to stop, nobody has ever shown that it even exists.

For those of you unaware what a "cheese build" is: Trial dummies are having tons of buffs and debuffs and people are making builds around that. As an example they don't care about Armor Penetration as the dummy provides so much that they simply ignore it and use other damage raising CP instead of Force of Nature, something they would really need for let's say a Trial.

That's cheesing the dummy and getting fake parses. Even if you reach 100k with that it's simply not possible if you would use your regular Trial build but nobody is doing that as it would result in much lower numbers. Don't take everything as a fact simply because someone shows you a number, there's always a story behind it.

Let me clear some things up for you, you're saying that parsing by optimizing around the dummy is cheesing, well... THEN EVERY SINGLE PARSE VIDEO OF 100K ABOVE IS PRETTY MUCH CHEESING

Yes, you're absolutely right with this one. That's why i "only" parse 95k with my regular setup and that's totally fine for me.

Zezin wrote: »

the focus is to get as much dps with the resources you have available to you, a good player learns to do this not only on the dummy but in content as well

You can't "learn" more Penetration, you either bring it with you one way or the other or it's simply missing.

Zezin wrote: »

some people(like myself) have individual setups for EVERY SINGLE TRIAL BOSS in the game

And you use none of that to parse. If you want real numbers you should try that, i've never been a friend of those bloated fake parses.

Zezin wrote: »

the damage we achieve by doing this is the fruit of a lot of effort, I have more sets in my bank than what I can hold on my characters inventory(over 300 pieces of gear) all of it with specific purposes.

Good, it's very nice of you to always help out as best as you can.

Zezin wrote: »

People also seem to forget that other classes exist besides templar and DKs, have you tried bringing a Necromancer to one of the new dungeons?

I did. As a tank. Both dungeons on vet.

Zezin wrote: »

let me tell you something, in pretty much any of the new content in the game the boss doesn't stay still on top of our damage, but guess which build has zero problems with that? HA.

So what? You can't blame mobs for moving and playing a build with lot of ground DOT's in melee range in a highly mobile fight isn't anyones fault but your decision. Do you remember fire staff meta and why you switched away? You can still use range builds outside of HA and get higher damage numbers with it.

Zezin wrote: »

With that in mind and the sheer effort required to master combat can people really not see how it pisses people off that Empower builds are doing as much as they are without having to put little to no thought into it?

You stood there with a fire staff not long ago and no one blamed you for using it because "it takes less effort and is way easier to play than melee". HA builds are only that good because the concept is relatively simple so people can focus on what's going on more.

Let me tell you a little story: I'm leading beginner Trials for almost two years now, normal and veteran. Since HA OS became a viable option we've been able to clear content people could only dream of not long ago. Most of them are of higher age and can't keep up with 2 bar rotations due to various limitations.
Just about yesterday we did vSO with HM with relative ease at the final boss. They were so happy, so thankful to get this done. They enjoyed it and really cheered uppon completion. HA builds made them able to actually look at the game, see what's going on and reacting to it. Before they were so tangled up in their "rotation" that they always died as they simply can't do it at the same time no matter how hard they try.

Those are the people who will get hurt by a nerf. Those people, not the ones who already play 2 bar rotations to near perfection and simply switched to HA because it's even easier with still good enough results.
It's not the older, not the disabled people getting the trifecta runs but the ones without any limitations (in most cases) who just want it the easier way. It's not an item being broken but peoples attitude.

Zezin wrote: »

Patch after patch we got hit with nerf after nerf, LAs got nerfed so many times I can't even remember anymore, our skills got gutted, the sets we use nerfed one after the other. You say the top end did not get gutted? Have you really forgotten U35 already? Just because Zenimax buffed the crap out of the 21mill dummy doesn't mean we'll forget the 30% slap in the face we got during that patch."

Even with all the so called nerfs the damage is higher than ever before. Even factoring in the dummy nerf people are parsing 148k and above. You always call out the nerfs but never mention the buffs you're getting one way or the other. You just take them as a given, but that's a two way street.

Zezin wrote: »

If Zenimax wants to remove skilled gameplay out of the game that is fine, just don't expect to keep the players that are here for it.

Nobody is removing skilled gameplay as you call it, there's just another contender in town now and it feels like you can't stand that. Competition stimulates business. If you want to stay on top show that you're worth it with your 2 bar style.

Zezin wrote: »

edit: first of let me apologize for how I came out in this, I tend to go off when I'm in a bad mood, which is very much the case, also while I said that there's little to no thought into HA builds that is not entirely sure, I myself in my own testing used different set combinations for different things however sergeants mail was always present, more specifically a lightning staff, that being said it's still no were near the amount of optimization needed for other types of builds with the amount of 5p sets that you need being at most 4(Noble, sergeant, unweaver and storm master).

It's not on me to judge you.

wicked_prophet wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

You're both a troll and you're toxic Yulan, I would not bother replying to this and don't think anyone else should, you have been nothing but condescending to players on every single one of your comments.

You have no argument for me. That's why im toxic and problematic, cuz i speak without any fear to tell the true.
Im toxic because i 100% give my suport to oaksoul users?
Im toxic because none 2bar builds is better then onebar?
im toxic because i say DK is the strongest build in all game?
im to toxic because, so many players ask to nerf Oakensoul and i ask to nerf DK cuz they are indeed strongest?
im toxic because anyone can create a topic to ask nerf oakensoul, but i cant make one to ask nerf DK?
Im toxic because i see so many players happy if ZoS kill oakensoul, but i can't be happy if ZoS kill rotation?
Im not toxic. You say your point of view, i speak freely without fear of ban. (And only because of this line.... maybe its the end for me)

wicked_prophet wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

If any HA build is making more DPS then you with 2bars, then the problem is your rotation\items. HA builds, will lose in dps everytime for players with perfect rotation. If you use 2bars and you do less DPS then HA builds go trainne your rotation.

Trainne more.

That is simply not true is some situations. I am what a lot of people would consider a "veteran player", having almost all trial trifectas including Planesbreaker and will (hopefully) soon have Swashbuckler as well. And i've done all of them as DD. So i don't think there is much more i can do to "train more". But doing dungeons - the difference between oakensoc and any other 2 bar build is insane. A good friend of mine, who is on a similar skill level as i am is doing the dungeon with me, and where i am doing 65K single target (while having unlimited sustain and 25K resistance, a ton of mitigation and 1 click all team full HP healing ability) he is doing 45K while struggling with sustain, and having 140+ CPM. Yes, oakensorcs do loose out in most trials to 2 bar builds (excluding vAS where they are still the most hard hitting build) - but in dungeons and 4ppl arenas they are insanely overpowered

This is true in any situation.

Very good 2bars rotation will beat oakensoul everytime everywhere.
Very good player with oakensoul (not all are so good) will never be better then 2bars pro player. Never!
Oakensoul build are better then players with bad rotation. That's why ZoS make Oakensoul. No?

And to add to that - i'd like to see how many people cleared Immortal Redeemer in a PUG with 3:02 fight time in 2 bar build

You're referencing to an over 5 years old and very outdated Trial people are able to complete nowadays faster than ever. How long do you think a Trial and its mechanics stay relevant? It's 1-2 years at best, then there will be something that makes it way easier in some regard. Mythic items in this and many other cases and it all started with Wading Kilt.

Kisakee wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Hold left mouse, click a button every few seconds, press WASD. Oh and also they need to do the mechanics of breathing and looking at the screen.

Point is that OS players can slap on an item which right now is pay-to-win for a lot of people (saying that you gave effort to get it whilst that's like 2 hours max isn't too much of an effort in an MMORPG...) and you can do a lot of damage from holding your left button and moving out of AOEs which surprise-surprise everyone has to do. It's ranged, it's AOE and in a couple of scenarios 2bar builds will be out DPSd because of how selfish the build is, how long-range and AOE it is and because you can use light armor and just pen the crap out of it.

The game is pay to play in the first place as you need to buy it. Then every singly mythic, every DLC Dungeon set, every DLC Trial set is pay to win by you logic. So everyone buying DLC's and chapter's or getting ESO+ is pay to win. You are part of that and yet you blame it. Always keep in mind that your Wading Kilt is nothing different from Oakensoul and you blamed no one for using it.

Also HA builds have existed way before Oakensoul, they have always been there. The only difference is that they are now actually viable for end game content for thousands and thousands of people out there. Floor got raised, damage on the bottom made a significant jump upwards while no one at the top got gutted.
This only means you now have more useful people to complete team efforts and yet you just envy them instead of being thankful. Are you that elite? Can't you be happy for someone finally being able to enjoy all the content you enjoyed? They also payed for it just like you so they have every right to also be there.

And if you really can't let it go that damage got constantly raised over the years and that people complete and get achievements out of Trials that are many years old now that's not the game or ZOS being the problem.

And you forget to say: All players can use Oakensoul but not all players can do 120k or almost 130k if play with DK.
And ofc... You will not get this numbers with oakensoul.

Right, i'm still waiting someone proving that they can get a 100k single target HA parse without a dummy cheese build. Everyone is claiming that it exists and need to stop, nobody has ever shown that it even exists.

For those of you unaware what a "cheese build" is: Trial dummies are having tons of buffs and debuffs and people are making builds around that. As an example they don't care about Armor Penetration as the dummy provides so much that they simply ignore it and use other damage raising CP instead of Force of Nature, something they would really need for let's say a Trial.

That's cheesing the dummy and getting fake parses. Even if you reach 100k with that it's simply not possible if you would use your regular Trial build but nobody is doing that as it would result in much lower numbers. Don't take everything as a fact simply because someone shows you a number, there's always a story behind it.

Let me clear some things up for you, you're saying that parsing by optimizing around the dummy is cheesing, well... THEN EVERY SINGLE PARSE VIDEO OF 100K ABOVE IS PRETTY MUCH CHEESING

Yes, you're absolutely right with this one. That's why i "only" parse 95k with my regular setup and that's totally fine for me.

Zezin wrote: »

the focus is to get as much dps with the resources you have available to you, a good player learns to do this not only on the dummy but in content as well

You can't "learn" more Penetration, you either bring it with you one way or the other or it's simply missing.

Zezin wrote: »

some people(like myself) have individual setups for EVERY SINGLE TRIAL BOSS in the game

And you use none of that to parse. If you want real numbers you should try that, i've never been a friend of those bloated fake parss.

Zezin wrote: »

the damage we achieve by doing this is the fruit of a lot of effort, I have more sets in my bank than what I can hold on my characters inventory(over 300 pieces of gear) all of it with specific purposes.

Good, it's very nice of you to always help out as best as you can.

Zezin wrote: »

People also seem to forget that other classes exist besides templar and DKs, have you tried bringing a Necromancer to one of the new dungeons?

I did. As a tank. Both dungeons on vet.

Zezin wrote: »

let me tell you something, in pretty much any of the new content in the game the boss doesn't stay still on top of our damage, but guess which build has zero problems with that? HA.

So what? You can't blame mobs for moving and playing a build with lot of ground DOT's in melee range in a highly mobile fight isn't anyones fault but your decision. Do you remember fire staff meta and why you switched away? You can still use range builds outside of HA and get higher damage numbers with it.

Zezin wrote: »

With that in mind and the sheer effort required to master combat can people really not see how it pisses people off that Empower builds are doing as much as they are without having to put little to no thought into it?

You stood there with a fire staff not long ago and no one blamed you for using it because "it takes less effort and is way easier to play than melee". HA builds are only that good because the concept is relatively simple so people can focus on what's going on more.

Let me tell you a little story: I'm leading beginner Trials for almost two years now, normal and veteran. Since HA OS became a viable option we've been able to clear content people could only dream of not long ago. Most of them are of higher age and can't keep up with 2 bar rotations due to various limitations.
Just about yesterday we did vSO with HM with relative ease at the final boss. They were so happy, so thankful to get this done. They enjoyed it and really cheered uppon completion. HA buils made them anle to actually look at the game, see what's going on and reacting to it. Before they were so tangled up in their "rotation" that they always died as they simply can't do it at the same time no matter how hard they try.

Those are the people who will get hurt by a nerf. Those people, not the ones who already play 2 bar rotations to near perfection and simply switched to HA because it's even easier with still good enough results.
It's not the older, not the disabled people getting the trifecta runs but the ones without any limitations (in most cases) who just want it the easier way. It's not an item being broken but people attitude.

Zezin wrote: »

Patch after patch we got hit with nerf after nerf, LAs got nerfed so many times I can't even remember anymore, our skills got gutted, the sets we use nerfed one after the other. You say the top end did not get gutted? Have you really forgotten U35 already? Just because Zenimax buffed the crap out of the 21mill dummy doesn't mean we'll forget the 30% slap in the face we got during that patch."

Even with all the so called nerfs the damage is higher than ever before. Even factoring in the dummy nerf people are parsing 148k and above. You always call out the nerfs but never mention the buffs you're getting one way ot the other. You just take them as a given, but that's a two way street.

Zezin wrote: »

If Zenimax wants to remove skilled gameplay out of the game that is fine, just don't expect to keep the players that are here for it.

Nobody is removing skilled gameplay as you call it, there's just another contender in town now and it feels like you can't stand that. Competition stimulates business. If you want to stay on top show that you're worth it with your 2 bar style.

Zezin wrote: »

edit: first of let me apologize for how I came out in this, I tend to go off when I'm in a bad mood, which is very much the case, also while I said that there's little to no thought into HA builds that is not entirely sure, I myself in my own testing used different set combinations for different things however sergeants mail was always present, more specifically a lightning staff, that being said it's still no were near the amount of optimization needed for other types of builds with the amount of 5p sets that you need being at most 4(Noble, sergeant, unweaver and storm master).

It's not on me to judge you.

1. we're on agreement

2. OFC you can "learn" more penetration, that's why there's light armor and Force of nature, part of what I said about optimization is adjusting pen for your specific group, I will almost always use light armor for dungeons for example as alkosh and crimson are not a good option there.

3. Parses are meant to measure the players capacity to generate damage that's it, content is whole different beast.

4. Ok... this thread is about DPS tho.

5. I didn't know your wall of elements moved with the boss if you have a inferno front bar LuL, or are you suggesting I just spam force pulse? either way is less damage than a HA build. BTW I'm usually ranged on my dungeon builds, I do change it depending on the encounter tho, doesn't change the fact AOEs are becoming more and more useless.

6. I still use inferno, bow too, all depends on the encounter, that's the thing, I have to adjust, lightning just works on everything. No comment on the second part.

7. the last time I saw a 148k dps parse was with High Isle pts... on a oakensorc... most classes are on the 120~130k range but even then only for the people capable of that, I myself in all my time playing have never gone above 126k on any class, and that was with me cheesing the hell out of it(I had a build to pre buff lol), without the cheese it's usually under 120k.

Incidentally which buffs would you be talking about? Berserk on wrecking blow from last patch is the only that comes to mind, and with my connection and ping that spammable is a nightmare, I lose damage with it instead of gaining. Even then it's only used situationally as it doesn't have the best cleave damage which is very much needed for newer content.

8. 20 second dots? nerf to all damage over time so it's "easier to manage"? LA nerfs? Caps to crit damage and Light attack damage? need I go on?

9. k

@wicked_prophet I was curious to see if anyone had so I did a youtube search. I saw lots of 6 minute/7 minute runs etc then found this one with bow/bow builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=961-F22oQzw 2:39!! I was flabbergasted lol

fizl101 wrote: »

@wicked_prophet I was curious to see if anyone had so I did a youtube search. I saw lots of 6 minute/7 minute runs etc then found this one with bow/bow builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=961-F22oQzw 2:39!! I was flabbergasted lol

keep in mind that this is a pug full of score pusher and WR holders LoL, cpcharles is one of the best players in the game, member of what is arguably the best group in the game as well, Unchained Animals does things that are simply not feasible to most other groups.

fizl101 wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

@wicked_prophet I was curious to see if anyone had so I did a youtube search. I saw lots of 6 minute/7 minute runs etc then found this one with bow/bow builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=961-F22oQzw 2:39!! I was flabbergasted lol

keep in mind that this is a pug full of score pusher and WR holders LoL, cpcharles is one of the best players in the game, member of what is arguably the best group in the game as well, Unchained Animals does things that are simply not feasible to most other groups.

It was interesting, and amazing!

it's fantastic to watch them in action, I've watched unchained animals runs so many times, they truly are amazing.

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Current HA builds are like a magic crutch that can make a disable man into an olympic runner. Yes, they will never be faster than Usain Bolt ( or whoever is the fastest now) - but they are still faster than 95% of everyone else. And you saying that if they just train better - they will all be just as fast as the Usain Bolt is just wrong.

If this is indeed the case, it point towards LA / 2 bar builds having scaling that is way off. Both scaling too hard, but also ignoring basic game design that there needs to be diminishing returns for skill.

Having HA builds scaling differently with a higher floor and lower ceiling can hardly be an issue?

Yazrz wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

The problem is not as much trials as it is all the other content in the game(there's only 10 trials compared to the dozens of dungeons), trials for the most part(except vAS) still benefit more from 2 bars, it's in dungeons and arenas where it has become so, this wouldn't have been the case if U35 had never happened but it did, it unbalanced the game to where all ground based AOEs became very weak and those have always represented a large portion of PvE dps damage.

I guess I just didn't see why it matters so much in 4-man content, since as I understood it the ring was intended for small groups where there wouldn't be so many buffs. But I suppose it's just that we are still talking chalk and cheese since you likely mean hard modes and speed runs and I'm thinking about just being able to do DLC dungeons in a duo with 2 companions.

It's a shame if what constitutes basic access to content for me is implemented in such a way that it negatively affects you.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Some people treat trifectas / HMs / etc as an Achievement ( which it is called in the game ). Current HA Oakensorc builds completely nullify this, as every dungeon and arena trifecta becomes so easy - you can literally do it one handed. Which makes the game very boring, as it feels like playing with cheat codes. Where wearing that magic ring - gives you infinite sustain - better survivability - amazing damage while pressing down LMB and so on. \

Yes - it does provide accessibility for people who are limited physically due to whatever reason, but it also makes content extremely boring for everyone else.

Noone is forcing *you* to play with it, so your achievements are not diminished

And arguing that someone would not understand achievements seems a bit like a strawman. Everyone has their own achievements of what they do within their limits.

Again, really wrong point of view. Why would someone deliberately choose a more difficult route? Also, people who enjoy Oak HA gameplay are just people who like everything handed to them on a silver platter. Since they are afraid of trying harder and since devs gave them an easy route - they all ran straight there. The only exclusion is people who have physical trauma / etc.

I really dont get it why PVE should be that accessible to everyone and that content has to be that easy. Like what is even a point then? Imagine if dark souls for example would be so easy - you could beat any boss with a few clicks of a mouse button.
Or if that race in mafia 1 would be so easy - you could do it blindfolded. Why are people are so afraid of a challenge? I just honestly don`t get it.