100th valid reason to NOT nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning Staff - respect player investment.

Zezin · March 2023

Btw major force is 20% increased crit damage

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

I

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

And, you can do the exact same thing, leaning heavily into crit, without oakensoul.....
Same skills, same buttons, etc.... the issue is MUCH deeper than just nerfing a ring.... as I noted above, making the "superior" 2 bar build with identical bars, works the exact same way......

Rather than blame one item, we should be looking into the root cause.
If it was Oakensoul, that was the issue, it would come up with flame and ice staves, as well as duel wield and 2 handed builds..... it does NOT come up there.

It ONLY seems to be a problem with lightning staves, and to a lesser extent, restoration staves..... although they don't get the splash damage.......

I think we are looking at this the wrong way... and grasping at a simplistic answer to a much more complex situation.

Before Oakensoul, and High Isle, even existed... I was using this exact setup, and getting the same results.... unless Oakensoul is also a magical time machine, then that should not have worked, but it has this whole time..... Oakensoul made it more visible.... but it has ALWAYS been there.

Then again, I am violating my own advice.... "never confuse people with facts, when their minds are made up"

Auldwulfe

You may very well be right. I have not mess with a HA build in a while, and this is my first time trying a one bar HA build. I literally just farmed the stuff for the classic oakensorc build last week, slapped it together and was blown away at the simplicity and sheer amount of damage. That said, everyone and their mom seems to be running this build right now. The second we get into 2 bars, and any semblance of LA weaving, we aren't talking about quite the same thing.

I have only literally LOLed a few times in this game when I try something that is so over the top i cant help but audibly laugh, but this might have been the loudest of them all. ( a few that come to mind: Thrassian at launch on my sorc in PVP, Oakensoul on my NB ganker at launch, The torugs pact meta in PVP when sticky dots still proc'ed enchants continuously, not sure I have ever felt this broken in PVE. The early version of HA sorc about a year after VMOL might be up there)

It gets even crazier in real content because literally every part of the rotation is also AOE damage. I only did a few dungeons solo just for grins, but it was laughable. Just replace trap with crit surge and you are darn near invincible, or one step further, make trap your shield and swap your morph to matriarch and I dont see how anything can kill you other than standing in a one shot. I am going to do VMA tonight just for grins to see how stupid easy it is to get FC now.

Blackbird_V · March 2023

Zezin wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

I could not have expressed this any better, a lot of casual players can't differentiate dummy parsing with actual content run by real people, they look at someone like cpcharles doing 130k parses and think that's the norm. If anything HA builds perform much closer to the dummy in content than what a regular build will, because simply we don't have access to the dummy buffs, I'd say most of the time for something like running dungeons it is very much flipped.

Is it flipped, though with Fire staves, or Ice Staves... how about Duel Wield, or 2h weapons?

As I noted, I was running the heavy attack lightning over a year ago, before Oakensoul existed.... and I learned that leaning heavily into crit, using the pets, and the Undaunted passives, among others, let me just burn through a LOT of content.

It's about the same now, except that Daedric Prey is even stronger, and empower gives a better boost, no matter where you get it from ...... the issue is a dynamic that involves the lightning staff......

And the only thing that will happen if you nerf Oakensoul is that the exodus after U35 will look like a trickle, compared to what would happen.... at which point, the game will be maintenance mode.

Auldwulfe

I honestly don't care much about oaken soul, I even called for a buff to it in a thread a while ago, I just have a problem with empower, no other buff in the game is that broken as to give 80% increased damage, the strongest PvE buff could arguably be major force and even that doesn't increase your damage by the full amount by the simple nature of crits occurring on a dice roll.

The issue with Oaken definitely is the Strength of Empower and the Weapons Expert CP giving 20%.... That along with the sets used - Sergeants Arms and Storm Master - make HA builds ridiculous. In addition Oaken gives Minor Slayer, so Slap 5% more damage on that.

They need to remove Empower, Minor Slayer and Minor Heroism (srsly, why?) from the ring, or massively nerf the boosts to Heavy Attacks. Example: as I've suggested a few times give empower the Minor/Major Treatment, and have Minor Empower 10% and Major Empower 20%; Weapons Expert CP should have the same treatment as Master-at-Arms, Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge and Biting Aura, so from 20% max to 6% Max.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Zezin wrote: »

Btw major force is 20% increased crit damage

I don't disagree with reviewing empower, and I am fine with knocking it down to 60, or even 40% ....
Honestly, I think that the large boost from Empower, no matter the source, with the cleave effect is the real issue ..... Nothing else that Oakensoul gives, seems to be a problem.... or we would see the same complaints about all the other weapons, and more videos online about using it..... EVERY video touting Oakensoul is also touting lightning staff.....

I know, as, again, I used Lightning HA builds a year ago.... I kind of got bored with it, but keep one around for the days my nerves and joints want to argue with me.
But, in the end, ring, no ring, etc..... there isn't much, if any difference between them, at all.......

However, screaming for a Nerf won't work.... it will anger people, and prevent an actual discussion to get to the root issue.

Auldwulfe

JJMaxx1980 · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Blackbird_V · March 2023

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Sec:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqM5D3MS-4

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

And, you can do the exact same thing, leaning heavily into crit, without oakensoul.....
Same skills, same buttons, etc.... the issue is MUCH deeper than just nerfing a ring.... as I noted above, making the "superior" 2 bar build with identical bars, works the exact same way......

Rather than blame one item, we should be looking into the root cause.
If it was Oakensoul, that was the issue, it would come up with flame and ice staves, as well as duel wield and 2 handed builds..... it does NOT come up there.

It ONLY seems to be a problem with lightning staves, and to a lesser extent, restoration staves..... although they don't get the splash damage.......

I think we are looking at this the wrong way... and grasping at a simplistic answer to a much more complex situation.

Before Oakensoul, and High Isle, even existed... I was using this exact setup, and getting the same results.... unless Oakensoul is also a magical time machine, then that should not have worked, but it has this whole time..... Oakensoul made it more visible.... but it has ALWAYS been there.

Then again, I am violating my own advice.... "never confuse people with facts, when their minds are made up"

Auldwulfe

You may very well be right. I have not mess with a HA build in a while, and this is my first time trying a one bar HA build. I literally just farmed the stuff for the classic oakensorc build last week, slapped it together and was blown away at the simplicity and sheer amount of damage. That said, everyone and their mom seems to be running this build right now. The second we get into 2 bars, and any semblance of LA weaving, we aren't talking about quite the same thing.

I have only literally LOLed a few times in this game when I try something that is so over the top i cant help but audibly laugh, but this might have been the loudest of them all. ( a few that come to mind: Thrassian at launch on my sorc in PVP, Oakensoul on my NB ganker at launch, The torugs pact meta in PVP when sticky dots still proc'ed enchants continuously, not sure I have ever felt this broken in PVE. The early version of HA sorc about a year after VMOL might be up there)

It gets even crazier in real content because literally every part of the rotation is also AOE damage. I only did a few dungeons solo just for grins, but it was laughable. Just replace trap with crit surge and you are darn near invincible, or one step further, make trap your shield and swap your morph to matriarch and I dont see how anything can kill you other than standing in a one shot. I am going to do VMA tonight just for grins to see how stupid easy it is to get FC now.

Now, try it with a 2H weapon.... or duel wield .....

The problem is unique to the lightning staff... and trust me, I LIKE the lightning staff, as I like mage like builds.... there is a reason I have a sorc, with lightning staff, a DK with a flame staff (flame mage idea), and a warden with an ice staff (ice mage)... all 3 are imperials, which means they are both tanky, and get cheap skill costs with their racials. And I dress them in light Ebony Motif, so that they LOOK like Imperial Battle Mages, colored for their spell type... as in purple, red, and light blue, over black....

Back to the subject .... I think we need to review how the staves work, and whether the heavy attacks for each are in line .... the 6% bonus damage to single target for fire staff seems weak, next to the cleave and splash from lightning......Ice, however, does give you a resource free damage shield, so there is that.......

I'd be all for making an "explosive" effect from a heavy Flame staff..... an aoe explosion..... while looking at lightning, and maybe reducing the radius of the cleave effect to put them on par with each other......

Pulling the cleave on Lightning would go a long way towards taking down some of that overpower, and then look at reducing empower to 60%.... or so, and try it there.....

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Sec:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqM5D3MS-4

And the video proves what I have been saying --- it is lightning staves.... try it with a bow.

Auldwulfe

JJMaxx1980 · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Sec:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqM5D3MS-4

Not sure what this is. This is a standard parse barely passing 100k. Where’s the 110k with your ‘dynamic hybrid LA/HA rotation’?

SkaiFaith · March 2023

@Blackbird_V Someone just wants to watch the world burn it seems. I think it was supposed to need a nerf not to be buried deep 😅.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I went through, and did a NUMBER of different builds with 2 bar set ups, but designed so that you still only EVER used 3 buttons, as that seems to be one of the big angers..... Sorc only used 2, as the mouse is the same for light or heavy attacks, I am not counting that particular one.

What I did was use the same sets, weapons, enchants, etc.
And I used the fighter cammo skill, and the mage guild empower -- on sorc, Daedric Prey, and both pets, with lightning staff... put it on both bars... and with Sergeant's Mail and All Light Order's Wrath.... and a monster set, Kargaeda.

And I found that WITHOUT Oakensoul, I still did 88K, with an average, in combat, of 37K... pretty identical to my Oakensoul, build, since it can't get a full monster set.... and only uses 2 buttons... one every 6 seconds, and one every 10... easy to maintain --- and it hits EVERY complaint that I have seen from EVERY 2 bar player that is complaining.... all without Oakensoul.

So.... I did Templar next ... and instead of Daedric prey, I did go with some other long term passive skills... most of which had 30 second plus timers, and since I didn't have pets, or Daedric prey, I did use shards to make up the difference.... and again, 3 buttons.... identical bars, 86K / 38K (shards is actually more consistent than pets in live combat), and again, NO OAKENSOUL.....

DK, very similar numbers, as well as NB, and Warden.... I don't have a sufficient level Necro to test with, as I am not much of a Necro player.... but I really don't see an issue.

So, a NO OAKENSOUL build plays just as easy as the OAKENSOUL build with the same numbers, no real extras..... and only 3 keys... or so, each.

I am just as tanky as Oakensoul..... all you need is the Undaunted passives, with a bit of planning on Glyphs.... and with the DK, I get a Free 70% snare that does solid burn damage for 18 seconds .... who cares if they nerfed the stamina regain.... you aren't using that, anyways with a heavy attack staff.... and I never really relied much on Helping Hands, anyways.... however, the, pretty much guaranteed burn damage from DK, coupled with Occult Overload CP (even it it's new crippled state), just added a LOT to my AOE damage, easily outpacing even Daedric Prey and pets... which give you a HUGE chunk of the damage, again, without Oakensoul.....

Yes, it is easier to set up with oakensoul... marginally.
You HAVE to have High Isle
You either HAVE to be ESO+ or have bought other DLC's
You HAVE to grind your antiquities up high enough to actually use it for the leads
You HAVE to grind the leads, sort of like grinding sets in dungeons for 2 bar builds
You HAVE to hope there are enough people at a Volcanic Vent.... just to get one of those leads, and so on......

It's not a gimmee... nor is it easy, and you can get the exact same results in other paths.... I would think the issue may be more in how lightning staves work on a heavy attack, as this does work with the others, but Restoration is one target, and while the other destruction staves don't get the raw damage, they have their own bonuses.... such as ice giving you a free damage shield, and fire pretty much giving you free status effects to feed Occult Overload with.

There are issues with the staves... oakensoul just makes it easier to see them.

Auldwulfe

@Auldwulfe I would pin your comment if I could. That's the point. If the same results can be achieved with different 2 bars setups it is no problem to anyone apparently, because it sounds more legitimate. If it's achieved with Oakensoul THEN it really comes a big problem, man!
Which problem? I still didn't get it after 200+ posts, but it sounds like *creating the possibility* to have things easier is controversial, even when no one is forcing anybody to use said easier way, and even if the easier way helps more people enjoy the game, and could potentially prevent 2 bars users to damage their wrists - in which case, guess who would wish for an Oakensoul build then...

"Oakensoul affects everyone"! ... Maybe we could end up fighting The Ominous Oakensoul Ring at the end of Necrom, who knows, 'cause sure it feels like people think it's more dangerous to Tamriel than Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal combined.

ghost_bg_ESO · March 2023

@PaddyVu collection is also heavy attack builds, if all remember it.
way before oakensoul, it was just critical damage the king at this time and easier to get.
(undaunted unweaver + infiltrator)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/566401/i-want-to-share-my-solo-collection-to-everyone

Blackbird_V · March 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Sec:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqM5D3MS-4

And the video proves what I have been saying --- it is lightning staves.... try it with a bow.

Auldwulfe

92k DPS Snipe spam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xpcpD0dVI

82k DPS bow Heavy Attack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1EpA2CR__E

So it's relatively close.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@Blackbird_V Someone just wants to watch the world burn it seems. I think it was supposed to need a nerf not to be buried deep 😅.

Eh, over the years meta builds I've run have been buried deep, including the class I play. It's only fair

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

As someone who has mastered this build from the beginning. None of this is true.

Show me the CMX or a POV or else it’s just talk.

Sec:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqM5D3MS-4

And the video proves what I have been saying --- it is lightning staves.... try it with a bow.

Auldwulfe

92k DPS Snipe spam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xpcpD0dVI

82k DPS bow Heavy Attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1EpA2CR__E

So it's relatively close.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@Blackbird_V Someone just wants to watch the world burn it seems. I think it was supposed to need a nerf not to be buried deep 😅.

Eh, over the years meta builds I've run have been buried deep, including the class I play. It's only fair

Relatively close, but without the cleave and splash damage from the HA ...

I agree, but then again, it is possible to get that with ANY heavy build that is reasonably put together without Oakensoul ..... because I have done it.

And that works, because HA should give a solid chance of doing well enough to get through content...
HA has always existed in game... it is a viable way of play, and SHOULD be within the ballpark of good enough for group play.

Again, proving the point that maybe the issue isn't Oakensoul.... it's other things.

Auldwulfe

SkaiFaith · March 2023

In another thread, on the PTS page, I said Empower taken to 60% and Trifocus splash damage taken to 80% is what I would have felt acceptable at most as a nerf. I still feel those shouldn't go lower. Weapon Expert to 16%? Maybe (not 6 because let's face it, people lamented for every CP taken down to 6% because it makes leveling almost nonsense, a slog).

Remember that firstly it should remain a viable option since it's officially an accessibility tool, and with "viable" I don't mean on the low tier, otherwise it would not help anyone access more content.
Secondly, we're talking like if EVERYBODY will utilize this combination, which is obviously not the case, and people outside of this type of builds should still be willing to create builds around those values taken separately - what if someone's build only utilizes weapon expert, or only empower, or only trifocus, but not simultaneously... You wouldn't want to break the game to them.

Throwing big percentage numbers nerfs makes it look like you don't even really care, which takes your opinion automatically out of the equation at the eyes of the devs. It's called "fine tuning" in the end, not "Drunken Nord's Smashing" XD

Zezin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

In another thread, on the PTS page, I said Empower taken to 60% and Trifocus splash damage taken to 80% is what I would have felt acceptable as a nerf. I still feel those shouldn't go lower. Weapon Expert to 16%? Maybe (not 6 because let's face it, people lamented for every CP taken down to 6% because it makes leveling almost nonsense, a slog).

Remember that firstly it should remain a viable option since it's officially an accessibility tool, and with "viable" I don't mean on the low tier, otherwise it would not help anyone access more content.
Secondly, we're talking like if EVERYBODY will utilize this combination, which is obviously not the case, and people outside of this type of builds should still be willing to create builds around those values taken separately - what if someone's build only utilizes weapon expert, or only empower, or only trifocus, but not simultaneously... You wouldn't want to break the game to them.

Throwing big percentage numbers nerfs make it looks like you don't even really care, which takes your opinion automatically out of the equation at the eyes of the devs. It's called "fine tuning" in the end, not "Drunken Nord's Smashing" XD

I'd be cool with 60% empower for HA if we could get 15~20% on LA, also keep WE as is, I very much dislike the constant nerfs to CP.

edit: is it weird that I don't want tri focus to be nerfed? the only problem I have with lightning staves RN is that they're doing more damage single target than infernos which are supposed to be better at that... so buff inferno HA a little?

Rageypoo · March 2023

Personally, I think Z0S did a good job balancing the oakensoul with HA builds to make them strong without being as capable as a 2h, and not being so weak that they hold a group back. It's the best of both worlds and I wouldn't change a thing. 2 bars get to brag that they are still the superior elite.

Oaken HA attacks do need good weaving in order to keep up pace with 2 bars. You may not like the playstyle but they don't just get it for free like some people like to claim, it does take work.

Zezin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

In another thread, on the PTS page, I said Empower taken to 60% and Trifocus splash damage taken to 80% is what I would have felt acceptable at most as a nerf. I still feel those shouldn't go lower. Weapon Expert to 16%? Maybe (not 6 because let's face it, people lamented for every CP taken down to 6% because it makes leveling almost nonsense, a slog).

Remember that firstly it should remain a viable option since it's officially an accessibility tool, and with "viable" I don't mean on the low tier, otherwise it would not help anyone access more content.
Secondly, we're talking like if EVERYBODY will utilize this combination, which is obviously not the case, and people outside of this type of builds should still be willing to create builds around those values taken separately - what if someone's build only utilizes weapon expert, or only empower, or only trifocus, but not simultaneously... You wouldn't want to break the game to them.

Throwing big percentage numbers nerfs makes it look like you don't even really care, which takes your opinion automatically out of the equation at the eyes of the devs. It's called "fine tuning" in the end, not "Drunken Nord's Smashing" XD

While I understand and agree that throwing around big percentage nerfs or buffs is wrong this is exactly what happened with empower, it was increased by 100% (from 40% to 80%) for heavy attacks and then excluded Light attacks. Just pointing out that the devs do precisely this kind of thing on a somewhat regular basis, most recently the graveyard synergy got a 37% nerf for example.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

Rageypoo wrote: »

Personally, I think Z0S did a good job balancing the oakensoul with HA builds to make them strong without being as capable as a 2h, and not being so weak that they hold a group back. It's the best of both worlds and I wouldn't change a thing. 2 bars get to brag that they are still the superior elite.

Oaken HA attacks do need good weaving in order to keep up pace with 2 bars. You may not like the playstyle but they don't just get it for free like some people like to claim, it does take work.

Wise words. The fact that some define "boringly easy" Oakensoul HA builds doesn't automatically mean that no one is still "trying hard" utilizing them - I still have hurting pain in my fingers, hands and wrists even though I mostly HA.
"It's just keeping a button down". Well, to some even that can be difficult, unfortunately. But it sure is better than else.

One note: i mentioned my "reasonable nerf" suggestion in my last comment, but I was by no means thinking Oakensoul needs a nerf. I agree that the devs have already done a good enough job with balancing. But I was starting to understand and feel Rich's frustration, so I gave up a bit and shared my opinion on the eventual nerf - which I hope will never come anyway.

FrancisCrawford · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

I could not have expressed this any better, a lot of casual players can't differentiate dummy parsing with actual content run by real people, they look at someone like cpcharles doing 130k parses and think that's the norm. If anything HA builds perform much closer to the dummy in content than what a regular build will, because simply we don't have access to the dummy buffs, I'd say most of the time for something like running dungeons it is very much flipped.

Agreed also. 80% of my vDungeons now when I queue have either a Fake Tank, Fake Healer or both.... Running Oakensoul Heavy Attacks roleplaying as Nikola Tesla probably yelling I'M ZAPP BRANNIGAN. No group buffs, debuffs or taunts.

It's massively affecting my experience using the system. It feels bad to queue now knowing that I am likely going to see stupid flappy wings in my face and ZAP ZAP ZAP with a fake tank running away from bosses/adds, wasting my aoes and resources and make dungeons a massively unenjoyable experience.

Same with Raids. Pugged a vSO last week and the oaken users were oblivious to first boss mechanics, getting killed the the earthquake/"popcorn" mechanic.
A Pug vRG I did this week had same issue - Oakensorcs going Brrrrrr paying no attention and killing the group at Bahsei with the curse/bomb.... even tho they have little else to pay attention to, as it's 2 skills and heavy attack.

It's becoming frustrating to play with randoms as it's just cancer at this point.

It seems that your complaint is that being able to do more damage encourages bad players to team up with you, when in fact the other deficiencies in their play make them unworthy of doing so.

Am I understanding correctly?

Auldwulfe · March 2023

[/quote]

Agreed also. 80% of my vDungeons now when I queue have either a Fake Tank, Fake Healer or both.... Running Oakensoul Heavy Attacks roleplaying as Nikola Tesla probably yelling I'M ZAPP BRANNIGAN. No group buffs, debuffs or taunts.

It's massively affecting my experience using the system. It feels bad to queue now knowing that I am likely going to see stupid flappy wings in my face and ZAP ZAP ZAP with a fake tank running away from bosses/adds, wasting my aoes and resources and make dungeons a massively unenjoyable experience.

Same with Raids. Pugged a vSO last week and the oaken users were oblivious to first boss mechanics, getting killed the the earthquake/"popcorn" mechanic.
A Pug vRG I did this week had same issue - Oakensorcs going Brrrrrr paying no attention and killing the group at Bahsei with the curse/bomb.... even tho they have little else to pay attention to, as it's 2 skills and heavy attack.

It's becoming frustrating to play with randoms as it's just cancer at this point.[/quote]

One reason is that a LOT of the true tanks, myself included, stopped doing PUGs and randoms, due to abusive players.... I still use my DK tank for my guild, and when with friends, but I totally stopped running my tank anywhere else.

As for transmutes, I build characters I don't plan on leveling after level 30 to 35 --- usually sword and shield with the basic taunt, or healer, and run regular dungeons .... once they get high enough, I delete and rebuild .... lets me get my crystals, and no worries on other things.

Auldwulfe

Rkindaleft · March 2023

The most acceptable solution is to just nerf Empower to 60%, even without Oakensoul that buff was overtuned as soon as they changed it to 80%.

Estin · March 2023

Rkindaleft wrote: »

The most acceptable solution is to just nerf Empower to 60%, even without Oakensoul that buff was overtuned as soon as they changed it to 80%.

60% is still overtuned. There was no reason for ZoS to make empower greater than 40% in the first place. I understand the removal of LAs from empower because they wanted to make weaving less of an importance, but the buff to HA was such an out of nowhere change, and I do suspect that they've never expected players to pair it with every single item in the game that already boosts HAs to make it do a massive amount of damage with 100% cleave. People can debate accessibility and player investment all day, but at the end, it doesn't change that it's way too overtuned.

Ragnarok0130 · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

_Yulan_ wrote: »

As long Oakensoul is making more dps then players with bad rotation and as long ZoS allow dps share/show to all players... People will never stop.

Dps share is a very big problem and will allways create so much hate.
Disable only this function.... Problem 100% solved.

ZoS disable for exemple, functions for BeamMeUp addon because this was very harm to the game.
But disable DPS share.... Nah. They love blood too xD

You have to opt in to DPS share if you want to be able to see someone's specific DPS in real time. This is a very useful tool for raid leaders, and if you dont like it, dont join a competitive raid group. I can certainly see my percentage of DPS, but end of the day, that is just basic math. I know how much DPS I do, I know what the health of the enemies is, and I learned long division in like 3rd grade. Not sure they could disable that if they wanted to.

Also, nobody is running to eso logs after a random group finder and shaming people that show up as anonymous.

Now, now @Oreyn_Bearclaw, don't ruin his argument with facts. I've seen him posting angrily all over the forums during the past couple of day advocating for bizarre things like 30 second bar swap cooldowns trying to get vengeance on two bar builds for his precious being nerfed/exploit being patched by the devs in vCR. He also seems to be strangely anti-discord for some unknown reason.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Rkindaleft wrote: »

The most acceptable solution is to just nerf Empower to 60%, even without Oakensoul that buff was overtuned as soon as they changed it to 80%.

That's a decent solution, but I'd also agree with the cleave being down to 80%, too ....
Again, you don't have anyone complaining about Oakensoul one bar builds with ice staves, or fire staves... so it is likely only a part of the issue.

Then again, this is ZOS, Dragon Knight go BRRRRR

Auldwulfe

Shihp00 · March 2023

1 bar builds were never a problem but how can any decent player look at this mythic and say that it's "not busted" rofl. Do people just read the buffs without knowing what they do? I don't have a problem with the ring btw, just like OP I'd prefer they Don't nerf it a 2nd time (don't care if they do, still won't affect me)

Tia413 · March 2023

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

@FrancisCrawford 100%this

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

@Vulkunne for once I am gonna agree with you on 99% of what you said......

"Entitlement "is as bad of a choice of word usage as was my "created" choice , that I deleted. At least imo it is.

I agree with you about "word of mouth" and how it can spread and do damage as fast as a Stage 4 STD can.

The community just can't keep the info about their current builds, sets, skill usage, etc to themselves.
I understand we are supposed to help each other with these things BUT when we do try to share these helpful things
on the forums, on Reddit or other such platforms or via streaming to whichever venue you prefer...what happens next?

Someone comes along and finds a way to use what info you offered up as help in your chat with them, post or video, as an exploit. Or gets jealous and calls for a nerf of this or that.
I have seen it happen too many times on this game (as well as others).
IK this info is supposed to be helpful to not only players but to ZOS too, but I have found it to be more harmful than good.

Just like I am upset with a certain well known ESO build web site owner for posting up some builds that he has that make it extremely harder for those us trying to make a buck in the game or play the game in a way that is comfortable for our RL situation/impairment. And I have stopped using his stuff altogether as my go to person for info because of this.
***I won't link to any of his videos that I am speaking about so don't ask me to. All I will say about 1 of his builds is that we might as well still have BOTS in the game.

Some years back I fell under the knife of a gear nerf just like you did. I had to completely re-think/redo my whole build. I wasn't exploiting in any way. I had just managed to come across a very delicious build through trial and error.
I openly spoke about it (the gear I was using, skills I used, where I had cp points allocated, etc). Just trying to be helpful and share my knowledge with others. And it back fired on me.

Now I tell no one that info. I know skills and if a person is using the Oakensoul ring are easy for some to find out (quite a few addons show this info) and I can't do anything about that , but only ZOS has access to what gear I am using and where I have my CP pts allocated.
And I am in no way obligated to answer any person that should happen to ask me what gear I am wearing. The only person who has a right to know that info is ZOS.
And this comes from a person who doesn't have a single selfish bone in her body.
Case in point: I once fed a homeless person Thanksgiving dinner because we had enough to not only feed 6 people but a small army and knew I would get beat for doing so...I did what I felt was the right thing to do. No regrets.(*** Again, I want no sympathy!)

I do agree that Empower on the ring doesn't really help LA builds(which is what I use) and to remove it wouldn't hurt me much at all, but that does not make it fair to HA users, imo.
I would never call for a nerf of the ring just because HA users do more DPS than I do.

That's called jealousy... a very evil sin. And is Toxic.

And the very thing that is starting to make MMO's not look appetizing to many people any longer.

And even though I was advised to use MMO's by a Therapist back in 2003 as a method to socialize due to having Social Anxiety Disorder I find it best to barely talk ingame or even on a games' forums. Because of the Toxicity.
And the very reason why I stick to myself, don't do group content, and while playing only pay 10% attention to what others are doing or saying around me.
Even though this is an MMO and I should be interacting with others.
It's just sad that it has had to come down to this.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

Since I am the one who has thrown the word "entitled" I feel obligated to explain my point.
I was only saying that as everyone is "entitled" to have its own opinion, you and me as everyone else, no one should go as far as saying "No! It's not true that in your experience this item is not OP! Because in my experience and for whoever else it is OP!" - who the hell one thinks he is? No one has the capabilities of being in someone else's mind or body. If someone says that in his specific case it is not I give the benefit of the doubt, since I can't judge his specific case. Someone in this thread said happens to play with just one hand sometimes if I recall correctly so... How can one judge that or state that it's OP? Be honest, no one is a supreme judge with omniscience.
With this said, if I say that I don't think Oakensoul is OP in my specific case, I feel I am "entitled" to think so. I'm not saying you should think so too... Just don't say I'm wrong because you technically can't/don't have the knowledge to.
If it's OP for you, fine. But don't pretend it is so for everyone else.

thepandalore · March 2023

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?

I personally know a few disabled players (paraplegics and neurodivergents with multiple vDLC dungeon challenger/trial achievement clears) who have literally been told after U37, "you don't belong here, you belong in overland" by other endgame raiding communities simply because they use Oakensoul to be able to enjoy the harder content. The U37 Cloudrest change is being used as justification.

There are no neutral or kind words to describe the players employing that kind of ableist gatekeeping. The players who do it deserve to have their accounts terminated.

Heelie · March 2023

I crunched some numbers and just making empower additive with other damage buffs would take a good 15-20k off of oakensoul builds and 99% of oakebsoul players would never notice.

Heelie · March 2023

thepandalore wrote: »

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?

I personally know a few disabled players (paraplegics and neurodivergents with multiple vDLC dungeon challenger/trial achievement clears) who have literally been told after U37, "you don't belong here, you belong in overland" by other endgame raiding communities simply because they use Oakensoul to be able to enjoy the harder content. The U37 Cloudrest change is being used as justification.

There are no neutral or kind words to describe the players employing that kind of ableist gatekeeping. The players who do it deserve to have their accounts terminated.

I have has the opposite happen to me actually, when I did the world's highest vHoF score one handed, people told me I wasn't disabled enough on the forums, and that disabled people should only play one bar builds. I find the argument that one bar builds is for disabled people extremely offensive, as it projects disabled players as 2nd rank players not as capable as anyone else in the game. Let disabled players decide for themselves what and how they want to play and stop speaking on their behalf. From my experience disabled players are underrepresented among one bar players, from the 45 players I know personally with physical disabilities less than 5 plays exclusively one bar builds. Being critical of oakensoul is not ableist, emplying that disabled players can't comprehend two bars and weaving is tho.