clearly a 'nerf sorc' thread.

I'm more curious if ZoS ever remove Empower from the ring if people will adapt and go back to 2 bar heavy attack builds again.

Ironic really, the week 4 u35 Empower change really was a happy accident because without it it was actually going to be nerfed because you lost a tick.

I don't think the team is going to answer you because I firmly believe it was damage control. Anyone still waiting for the "Q&A" for said update.

We now have one bar builds, wonder when the one button builds are coming.

I'm usually more interested in how I play rather than trying to be a control freak over how others choose to do so. If I'm ever in a group that I don't feel happy about or uncomfortable with then I quit.

For me, 1-bar builds are boring.

But I do think it's really great if some players who might have otherwise struggled are able to have fun and play the game which they have paid for.

If i think about all the 'easy modes' that have been introduced over the lifetime of the game from the apparent perspective of the OP I'd quit - xp scroll and potions, ap boosting tortes, research scrolls for fast craft research, trial dummies for easier parsing and checking out build viability .....

No, now I actually think about it, I do think it's really great that the developers have made this and other stuff available so more players can enjoy their recreation time in the game they paid for.

tincanman wrote: »

I'm usually more interested in how I play rather than trying to be a control freak over how others choose to do so. If I'm ever in a group that I don't feel happy about or uncomfortable with then I quit.

For me, 1-bar builds are boring.

But I do think it's really great if some players who might have otherwise struggled are able to have fun and play the game which they have paid for.

I don't do group content at all (because with satellite mega ping it's just unfair to dump that on others), but Oakensoul 1 bar builds help me out with normal questing quite a bit since that sat ping means it's close to impossible for me to bar swap. Also my aging crap reflexes get a lot of relief using the ring plus one gear set (like Hexos' Ward) to provide a damage shield. So while I don't have a horse in this race as to endgame PvE (which I just don't have any real interest in anyway after burnout raiding in WoW), I really love Oakensoul even after the original nerfs. I do hope that we're not going to see any more nerfs of it....

I feel like the constant complaining about gatekeeping tries to shut down any discussion about this and doesn't really add anything.

It's not about gatekeeping as some people said. Honestly I don't care about people clearing endgame content and I'm not hypocrite because I'm using onebar builds myself.

Question still remains: What about tons of people who dedicated time perfecting certain playstyle forced by ZOS combat team themselves when one day appears the build and lefts all that effort in trashcan? **In my opinion** calling this build 'accessible build' is simply not true - it's good old broken meta-build which I'm fine playing, but fine are not people who dedicated their time and effor for getting better and reaching certain point of mastery.

Also it's very unfair mythic item turns drawback into desired feature by many people which is not how rest of the mythics works.

This is not an accessibility option and I beg developers to really reconsider their combat system as a whole and throw more incentives for chilled and 'casual' players instead putting very little in-game-available rewards behind hardcore achievments. That's why many people got mad and calling other people gatekeepers. This is real problem, not one build and that's why I politely asked people to not make this discussion about who likes this build and who doesn't.

If one playstyle takes very less effort to perform amazingly well compared to others - all of them should offer more or less the same.

Thank you

Barto92 wrote: »

...

PLEASE EVERYONE READING THIS: I don't want this thread to turn into another stupid argue between supporters and opponents of onebar Oakensoul build.
...

But that is the only thing a thread like this would cause and you've accomplished exactly that?
Well done :slowclap:

Congratulations for the Oakenbuilds for an awesome achievement! And using the mythic as ZOS intended, ACCESSIBILITY.

And for those that don't understand what that is or why it's needed, if you play ESO, or any game long enough you will, someday.

I only run Oaken on my WW build(Thinking of switching back to RotPO tbh), my finger dexterity is still very good so I can bar swap well.
But while my love for games will likely never get old, I will. Along with my joints and coordination, etc.
When that time comes I will be grateful for mythics and other items like Oakensoul that enable me to enjoy what I love even well after my "GIT GUD" is gone

So more players are getting into much harder content with the help of oakensoul and clearing it? What's the problem exactly?

Naftal wrote: »

Seems silly to be able to do almost as much damage on two builds where the other requires 5x more things to do.

You mean more like 1000x more effort? Doing a well performed 2 bar rotation mid actual fighting (without cheating like macros) is something very difficult. Most even struggle to hit 100k with static simplified 2 bar rotations on a static dummy, while still putting in 100x the effort than just holding down a left mouse button and maybe queuing a skill (with plenty wiggle room that comes with heavy attack weaving) once in a while.

CharlieVIII wrote: »

You can do more damage with 2 bars anyway so don't worry about it.

Sure you can, but how much more and is it balanced to put 1000x more effort into it to reach that little more? And before you start to assume my skill / damage, I can dish out more than oakensoul users but comparing the effort necessary to do so versus the gain it just feels like a slap in the face and I really consider to give up to do so in everything but the absolute most difficult content, because the balance is so dramatically off that its just absolute pointless to play another way.

And in suboptimal buff situations (for example fake healer + bad / fake tank) you might even do less damage on a classic setup because the oakensoul ring just gives you a dozen of buffs you would otherwise miss out. So that you even could end up putting in 1000x the effort but still doing less damage, because oakensoul users do almost the same damage even without any buffs from somewhere else, while even haveing no sustain problems and being more tanky than classic setups.

Also I agree with OP that this huge gap in reward vs effort doesnt look like good game design at all and more like an overseight or even mistake.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Perhaps a good counter for heavy attack dps is having more mechanics punish not bar-swapping, like Relequen in vCR. Voltaic is known to still work on Oakensoul builds. Werewolves are the only ones immune to it.

You are completely wrong here! Voltaic does almost no damage with Oakensoul builds if you dont equip a backbar weapon. So Oakensoul players even can ignore one of the worst mechanics in this trial completely, when they unequip their backbar weapon (which is of no use btw.) - exactly like werewolves. Makeing the trial for them even easier.

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

clearly a 'nerf sorc' thread.

I would be surprised if it wouldnt be a nerf Sorc thread 🤣. Probably this thread will result in DKs doing 120k+ with Oakensoul and Sorcs only hitting for 40k max next patch. But the truth is that if build correctly the classes arent to far apart with Oakensoul and Heavy Attacks right now.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

We now have one bar builds, wonder when the one button builds are coming.

Basically you can have them right now. The One Bar Oakensoul Build can also be played as One Button version (just holding down the left mouse button). This way you can do 80k+ with a One Button Build right now while the One Bar Build can do up to 100k+.

Agenericname wrote: »

I think that because a group of Oakensorc DDs can get Godslayer illustrates a few things, but one of the more important is that the damage required to get that achievement isnt as astronomically high as some believe.

It depends on the supports, especially tanks. They can make runs with lower damage possible or make them fail. Especially when it comes to Add stacking. You wont be able to do something like this with mediocre damage if the supports / tanks would be just mediocre, so the higher the damage is the easier the life of the supports is. And because its a group effort you should try to put in as much as you can and dont rely to much on others. Not saying that oakensoul doesnt provide enough damage (for most situations), in my opinion it does to much or alternative builds just to less for to much effort.

Agenericname wrote: »

When groups start demanding people use that build, I would agree, its a problem. They're still inferior to a skilled and well built 2 bar build. Right now it seems like its allowing more players to enter into veteran content. After U35 Im not sure thats entirely a bad thing.

The enabling to enter such content isnt a bad thing but the balance of effort vs. gain is a giant problem. Its like 1000x the effort you have to put in to get a little bit of more damage. It might encourage low end players to ditch into vet trial content but also it discourages mid end players to continue to put more effort into becomeing top end players or even as good as low end players with oakensoul. Give it one or two years and I bet the non oakensoul players will start slowly to die out and a single build will dominate broad areas of the game. In my opinion such a game would be bad.

And ZOS just completely would fail one of their goals. Dont remember the exact wording and couldnt find the thread right now but a short time ago they stated something that one of their goals was it to make it rewarding for people who put in more effort / master things. As far as I know light attack weaving was also mentioned in this regard. But right now this is so much off that they absolutely fail at this goal and I see this as one of the most important things to do well for computer games.

tincanman wrote: »

If it's any consolation to the OP I would fully expect the devs to nerf the 1-bar build to extinction once everyone starts using it - it's pretty clear from dev comments and spreadsheet balancing that they don't like single skills/builds/gear etc except during the few months after they release a new chapter/dlc.

You are somehow right, but on the other hand ZOS would introduce a big *** if they would nerf it to extinction. So I guess this wont happen. Still, I think it would be a good thing if it gets adjusted.

1. One way would be to lower the effectiveness of oakensoul builds.
2. Another way would be to higher the effectiveness of classic builds.
3. The third way would be to make heavy attack oakensoul builds more difficult to play, for example makeing weaving more difficult (similar to light attack weaving) or makeing heavy attacks cost ressources (so that its not possible to sustain them or one had to sacrifice damage for sustain) or something like this.
4. Make classic builds easier to play. For example makeing light attack weaving easier (similar to heavy attacks, so that you dont have to hit perfectly).
5. Maybe there are other ideas but I fully agree with OP that I dont think the actual state is good...

robpr wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

How can you in good faith to the discussion ask people to keep it unbias when you’ve made yours clear in your OP?

It’s absolutely gatekeeping and by no means are heavy attacks the meta. Not even remotely.

Meta builds are two-bar greatsword and daggers builds that are hitting around 130k. That’s 30% increased efficiency… over the alternative.

And what that 30% increased efficiency will do for you if both do the same outcome? Better score with meaningless reward from it?

Better score and rewards isn't a meaningless outcome in a competition. One bar builds are outperformed at the peak.

Objectively speaking, 2 bar builds are clearly superior.

So the issue isn't that they are the same. The issue is that there is a debate about whether they should be made even more inferior to 2 bar builds.

Barto92 wrote: »

What about tons of people who dedicated time perfecting certain playstyle forced by ZOS combat team themselves

What percentage of the total playerbase is actually going to switch over to one-bar builds?
It's not tons of people. I bet it's far fewer people than you're trying to claim.
You're inflating the importance of this situation beyond what is likely actually happening; trying to fear-monger folks into outrage.


Not to mention that Oakensoul builds are not readily accessible. One needs access to the relevant (somewhat unpopular) DLC in order to access the (also somewhat unpopular) Antiquities system, then one has to battle RNG to farm the relevant leads, AND have both Antiquarian skill-lines maxed to level 10 in order to even retrieve a max-level multi-piece Mythic antiquity, all BEFORE they can attain the one piece of gear that makes it all possible.
I.E., it requires no small amount of effort and time to be able to create said build.

And even then, two-bar builds are still superior for multiple reasons and will remain the dominant playstyle because of that.

robpr wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

How can you in good faith to the discussion ask people to keep it unbias when you’ve made yours clear in your OP?

It’s absolutely gatekeeping and by no means are heavy attacks the meta. Not even remotely.

Meta builds are two-bar greatsword and daggers builds that are hitting around 130k. That’s 30% increased efficiency… over the alternative.

And what that 30% increased efficiency will do for you if both do the same outcome? Better score with meaningless reward from it?

That depends. I think that we could make the argument that depending on the content more damage is the safer alternative.

A read an argument once where the tank stated that they would rather run vFL HM (with regards to the trifecta) with 3 DDs vs having a healer because the ghost walls were the biggest threat. More damage equaled fewer walls. Pushing higher damage to have fewer mechanics has been a thing for, well, a long time now.