Onebar builds made their way to endgame PvE

Barto92 · March 2023

Yesterday happened something that many players thought was impossible. The first Godslayer achievement in a group whose core consists of damage dealers using extremely popular onebar sorcerer build with Oakensoul mithic ring. Their score was 250k which is a really great result!

Video of said run + public combat logs below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esBqC2NKhKk

logs: https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Some players were electrified by this news and, as usual with this build caused a lot of controversy.

However this is not the first major achievement made with help of this (un)popular build. Previously a team managed to get Immortal Redeemer from the Asylum Sanctorium trial and countless dungeon groups got thier triffecta achievments, including myself in Earthern Root Enclave (link below post*).

[snip]

Is this still a build for accessibility and or..actual meta-build and a big shuffle in the whole ESO's combat system?

*ERE HM clear with 3 onebar sorcs:
https://streamable.com/khm3lf

[edited for baiting]

Meiox · March 2023

It seems we can't have nice things, because there are allways players who call for nerfs.
Yes this post is calling for nerfs, just a hidden call! :'(

Naftal · March 2023

So this is actually 12 players who didn't have the achievement before or people who already knew the content very well?

Barto92 · March 2023

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Kevin
More communication on the future of this build will be much appreciated

OBJnoob · March 2023

Sure take Oakensoul and Empower away.

Also for the same reason-- next time an unbeatable HM comes around that 2-bar builds can't beat, say after an update that nerfed their damage, don't nerf it for them. They obviously relish the chance to "git gud."

KlauthWarthog · March 2023

You still have to prog mechanics and group coordination, so what exactly is the problem here, again?

Snamyap · March 2023

Imho bar swapping and light attack weaving can die in a fire. I'd like to enjoy this game without my wrists going to hell.

That not withstanding: I can imagine end game players being annoyed by this.

Naftal · March 2023

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

You still have to prog mechanics and group coordination, so what exactly is the problem here, again?

Balance between builds I guess.

Seems silly to be able to do almost as much damage on two builds where the other requires 5x more things to do.

AcadianPaladin · March 2023

As a casual solo PvE player (solo many original group dungeons on normal and can solo most non-dlc WB) I do work hard to achieve a moderate level of damage. After U35 destroyed my ability to do that and tempted me to rage quit, I discovered Oakensoul, converted my characters to one bar builds and fell in love with the game all over again. Not only can I achieve moderate damage but I've discovered I absolutely love not spending most of my time in combat simply managing buffs. Playing one bar allows me to focus on footwork, what the enemy is doing and actual fighting. Infinitely more satisfying for me than a two bar build with the buff management monkey on my back.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

I remember when groups got those old achievements when 60k mag 70k stam was considered good. Top players were doing like 80k and that was considered insane. So I don't care that a years old achievement from when the top damage was significantly lower was accomplished. That goes double if any of them already had it before.

Dragonnord · March 2023

Meiox wrote: »

It seems we can't have nice things, because there are allways players who call for nerfs.
Yes this post is calling for nerfs, just a hidden call! :'(

The OP presents a valid argument stating "what was the point of learning how to parse, muscle memory, looking put for buffs and buffs within their trial teams accross multiple support item sets, classes, passives etc. learning mobility and knowing incoming damage..." if now there is easy mode Oakensoul?

I think time, work, effort and skills should always be rewarded more than less time invested, less effort and so...

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

spartaxoxo · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

Yes. That's literally an old trial that people also got the achievements on with years old damage standards, which were way lower than now.

2 bar builds hit harder and that's the reason to use them.

XSTRONG · March 2023

Players use oakensoul 1 bar builds in more content then just Pve endgame.

I use a 1 bar magplar with Oakensoul when farming WBs and would like to keep it that way.

If some players do 100k dps with heavy attacks thats fine for me and for many others i guess.

CharlieVIII · March 2023

You can do more damage with 2 bars anyway so don't worry about it.

hrothbern · March 2023

Barto92 wrote: »

Yesterday happened something that many players thought was impossible. The first Godslayer achievement in a group whose core consists of damage dealers using extremely popular onebar sorcerer build with Oakensoul mithic ring. Their score was 250k which is a really great result!

Video of said run + public combat logs below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esBqC2NKhKk

logs: https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Some players were electrified by this news and, as usual with this build caused a lot of controversy.

However this is not the first major achievement made with help of this (un)popular build. Previously a team managed to get Immortal Redeemer from the Asylum Sanctorium trial and countless dungeon groups got thier triffecta achievments, including myself in Earthern Root Enclave (link below post*).

Much of the endgame PvE community expresses deep consternation and mixed feelings about this expressing their attitude towards said build. Namely, a build that simplifies rotation to a level of ease not seen in any of the most popular mmorpg's today, in one of the most difficult content for PvE players. Build that defies rules of doing proper damage established by ZOS which includes light atack weaving, gives a lot of buffs to the mythic holder without really any drawbacks. Don't pretend to ourselves that locking bar-swapping is drawback of Oakensoul ring - it's convenience not a penalty for vast majority of players, especially PC users.

Many endgame PvE players are asking themselves what was the point of learning how to parse, muscle memory, looking put for buffs and buffs within their trial teams accross multiple support item sets, classes, passives etc. learning mobility and knowing incoming damage to create a build, that makes rotation a non-challenge because it's almost non-existent and less fun (especially on sorc), doesn't require bar swapping, which is also part of a good combat in the game and allows you to "stand in the red" because Oakensoul gives a lot of protection buffs so you can ignore a lot of trial/dungeon mechanics?

PLEASE EVERYONE READING THIS: I don't want this thread to turn into another stupid argue between supporters and opponents of onebar Oakensoul build. I want the ZOS to take a stand and clarify this issue. An official statement, was it a planned action or an accident to create a build that gives a lot of good things and asks nothing in return? Us players arguing about it leaves ZOS room for staying silent and ignoring player divisions.

Is this still a build for accessibility and or..actual meta-build and a big shuffle in the whole ESO's combat system?

*ERE HM clear with 3 onebar sorcs:
https://streamable.com/khm3lf

For me personally Oakensoul one-bar enabled me to get away from fumbling with complex two-bar rotations and to be free to get more situational awareness, more mechanics insight building up... and above all more joy in playing difficult content.

INM · March 2023

Oakensoul was a mistake honestly, rewarding for taking easier path isn't good game design and Oakensoal polarazied the community even more. But at this point you can't take away casuals' favorite toy, so it will stay this way

I'm not surprised though, ZoS had tried to raise the floor for years already and they finally managed to do so by massively dumbing down the combat. Funny enough that on release players were complaining that they have not enough skills to actively use and now people complain about opposite.

Dragonnord · March 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

That's literally an old trial

So vDSR, vRG new, and any other trial considered new?

So, 98% of the endgame content (trials and dungeons trifectas) can be Oakensouled.

Nice! We still have 2% of the game where two bars and animation cancelling are required.

Oh! Forgot a new trial is coming in June. That's then a 3% that Oakensoul still can't reach.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

That's literally an old trial

So vDSR, vRG new, and any other trial considered new?

So, 98% of the endgame content (trials and dungeons trifectas) can be Oakensouled.

Nice! We still have 2% of the game where two bars and animation cancelling are required.

Oh! Forgot a new trial is coming in June. That's then a 3% that Oakensoul still can't reach.

Balance is typically done top down when identifying whether something is too powerful in endgame.

If one bar builds are clearly inferior at the very pinnacle of content, then they aren't overpowered.

Dragonnord · March 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

That's literally an old trial

So vDSR, vRG new, and any other trial considered new?

So, 98% of the endgame content (trials and dungeons trifectas) can be Oakensouled.

Nice! We still have 2% of the game where two bars and animation cancelling are required.

Oh! Forgot a new trial is coming in June. That's then a 3% that Oakensoul still can't reach.

Balance is typically done top down when identifying whether something is too powerful in endgame.

If one bar builds are clearly inferior at the very pinnacle of content, then they aren't overpowered.

Sure! They can complete all veteran trials, all trials hard modes, the trifectas of 8 or 9 trials and all dungeons hard modes and trifectas.

I forgot they can't get you Planesbreaker and Swashbuckler Supreme. They are not overpowered, you're right.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

So, is it now worth learning animation canceling and everything the OP stated above?

That's literally an old trial

So vDSR, vRG new, and any other trial considered new?

So, 98% of the endgame content (trials and dungeons trifectas) can be Oakensouled.

Nice! We still have 2% of the game where two bars and animation cancelling are required.

Oh! Forgot a new trial is coming in June. That's then a 3% that Oakensoul still can't reach.

Balance is typically done top down when identifying whether something is too powerful in endgame.

If one bar builds are clearly inferior at the very pinnacle of content, then they aren't overpowered.

Sure! They can complete all veteran trials, all trials hard modes, the trifectas of 7 o 8 trials and all dungeons hard modes and trifectas.

I forgot they can't get you Planesbreaker and Swashbuckler Supreme. They are not overpowered, you're right.

VSS can be completed even at low CP

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549331/unlimited-by-meta-vss-low-cp-run

Dungeon trifectas also don't require high skill levels of damage. Why should one bar builds not be able to do what low CP players can do?

2 bar builds have no limits and higher damage. 1 bar builds let you do most things but are significantly worse than the pinnacle. In order to reach that, you'll have to learn a 2 bar build.

That's how it should be.

Dragonnord · March 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dungeon trifectas also don't require high skill levels of damage. Why should one bar builds not be able to do what low CP players can do?

Low CP doesn't mean they don't know how to animation cancel and use complete 12 kills two bars.

Also because, as I already stated, why low effort should be rewarded the same as a lot of time invested, work, real effort and skills?

RevJJ · March 2023

gatekeeping
noun [ U ]
UK /ˈɡeɪt.kiː.pɪŋ/ US /ˈɡeɪt.kiː.pɪŋ/

the activity of trying to control who gets particular resources, power, or opportunities, and who does not.

WuffyCerulei · March 2023

I mean, this is what Zos wanted people to do with heavy attacks. They wanted people to use them more for pve combat. If ya don't believe me, why was Empower made strictly for heavy attacks and only against NPCs? For that sort of playstyle.

Perhaps a good counter for heavy attack dps is having more mechanics punish not bar-swapping, like Relequen in vCR. Voltaic is known to still work on Oakensoul builds. Werewolves are the only ones immune to it.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dungeon trifectas also don't require high skill levels of damage. Why should one bar builds not be able to do what low CP players can do?

Low CP doesn't mean they don't know how to animation cancel and use complete 12 kills two bars.

Also because, as I already stated, why low effort should be rewarded the same as a lot of time invested, work, real effort and skills?

The whole point of that thread, if you read it, was that they weren't especially skilled players. They had well below meta damage even for 2 years ago.

They still completed VSS.

Why? Because VSS does not require high skill damage to complete. It didn't then and it certainly doesn't now.

The one bar builds aren't the same. Being worse at the peak is not the same.

BlueRaven · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dungeon trifectas also don't require high skill levels of damage. Why should one bar builds not be able to do what low CP players can do?

Low CP doesn't mean they don't know how to animation cancel and use complete 12 kills two bars.

Also because, as I already stated, why low effort should be rewarded the same as a lot of time invested, work, real effort and skills?

2 bar builds do more damage. That is their reward.

You want more people to do these harder pve areas, not less. If there is not enough people engaged with those difficult activities there will be less offered in the future.

We had 6+ years of zos trying to encourage 2 bar builds. Guess what? Not enough people did them. Or at least did them well.

You should be happy there are more people capable of doing these harder areas. It’s either that, or the difficulty of those areas would have needed to be nerfed to reach a wider audience.

fizl101 · March 2023

Good on them for getting godslayer with an oakenteam! I bet you all of those people have also done it with 2 bar builds and are probably hitting 120k+ with their 2 bar builds.

Experience and knowledge of those trials most definitely helps, as well as the knowledge you have of 2 bar builds for perfecting your timing and prioritisation of skills.

i have 2 bar builds and oaken builds and they are both fun to play. my oakensorc isn't breaking 94k, it is 25k less than those mega hitting magdk etc and 20k less than my highest hitting character. Would it be a struggle in the newer HM? Very probably! should it be possible to complete trials when good dps at that time was 80k or so? I think yes.

A new oakensorc player who has only done normal trials or maybe the odd vet is not going to suddenly get godslayer, they will need to prog just like 2 bar build players did, learn the trials, learn the priorities of adds and bosses , learn when to dodge vs trust their healers etc. It isn't going to be handed to them.

So far I've seen VAS2, VCR3 and now a Godslayer. Looking forward to seeing more

fred4 · March 2023

At the risk of adding to the division, I still want to say that I share the OPs concern. I recently attempted vBRP yet again. As usual, it went badly. We were on Discord, we had the addon, but the group wasn't up to it. What shocked me, however, was examining combat metrics afterwards. It was a 3 self-healing DD attempt. I survived OK on my 2-bar magplar, not much better or worse than the others, but frequently did only 20% of the damage. The other DDs must have done double my damage. This is unusual for me. I'm typically average or above average.

One of the other players was an Oaken-heavy-attack-sorc. I talked to them aftewards. They ran that build because they were not good at weaving and rotations in their own estimation. They were left-handed, struggling with their mouse and keyboard setup, and had started playing more recently than me. I don't know what the 3rd DD was running. I was just shocked by how much damage the Oakensorc could dish out while being similarly survivable. I'm good at melee builds. I run them in vMA and vVH. I don't think heavy attack builds being ranged fully explains it.

My problem is that it seems like playing an Oakensorc myself will be the only way I can compete. One build. Goodbye beloved magplar, goodbye everything else. So I can see where the OP is coming from. If even top players are scratching their heads, then why are there two bar builds? Why are there other classes? Why are there other playstyles? Why bother?

Contrary to rumours, I'm still here and still playing the game. I don't know when the last straw will come, but this is one of them. I need something to aspire to, not Oaken-easy-mode.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

Perusing that thread I linked earlier, I found an interesting statement that gives players an idea of the standard gameplay when this trial was created. I am just quoting the relevant part to this thread, not the whole thing. To see the whole thing, click the link I posted earlier.

Most vSS trials I have seen the minimun requirements are

dd: 45k dps
healer: Olo, Hollow, and two other dps sets I forget for debuff
Tank: Alkosh, Ebon, PA, Yolna

810cp + show achievement

It's extremely rigid

This statement was made in 2020.

So 45k was the low end of what was considered good and 80k+ was insane. I believe the first Godslayer had 80k+ players...

Just to give players an idea of the environment in which Godslayer was designed by the devs.

Since then a number of changes have been made to the game. It's why trials like Rockgrove are so much harder than Sunspire. It's to accommodate the fact that player power has crept up significantly. 80k is considered on the low end of vet dlc trials power now.

Aces-High-82 · March 2023

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dungeon trifectas also don't require high skill levels of damage. Why should one bar builds not be able to do what low CP players can do?

Low CP doesn't mean they don't know how to animation cancel and use complete 12 kills two bars.

Also because, as I already stated, why low effort should be rewarded the same as a lot of time invested, work, real effort and skills?

Why anyone can set a macro for a static rota within a couple of minutes?

Soarora · March 2023

There’s no point in ever arguing against oakensoul at all unless you want to be mobbed. If zos touches it either, they will get mobbed too. It is what it is.

The_Titan_Tim · March 2023

Heavy attack builds have been the sole reason new players have been jumping into Veteran Trials,

As a raider, watching your scene come to life with activity should be great. People are finally interested in the content again.

I’ve never had a grasp on why someone would have complaints about players performing well in PvE as there is zero loss for anyone involved or otherwise. If someone else succeeds, how is that affecting your gameplay?

Maybe there’s a motive here? Is the underlying concern that paids are no-longer necessary? Because this was worded in a way that slates heavy attack builds as competitive to LA builds when they are 30k dps less in each of their respective classes.

Leaderboards are for competition.
Progression is for cooperation.

Two separate things.

When you’re a better team getting knocked off of the leaderboard by builds like those, I would get the frustration, but that just doesn’t happen.