These Forums

MurkyWetWolf198 · February 2023

So, I've been kinda thinking about these forums and have some issues with them, or really, their users.

1. These forums are heavily dominated by complaints and other negativity. Not that those things don't have their place, but very little acknowledgement is given to the devs when good changes are made. It's the exact same situation that modern media is in really. But seriously, is no one gonna acknowledge that changes to the WD/SD enchants, the taunt and block changes, etc. were all very good and welcome changes?
2. The perspectives I most commonly come across seem to be mid-level PvP perspectives. I rarely see people talk about PvE issues, and when I do, it's only in response to massive changes like those from U35 and other ridiculous things. Furthermore, these perspectives RARELY bother to consider the impacts of their desires on the PvE scene, and that's rather hypocritical seeing as the PvP community has long complained about being overshadowed and ignored due to PvE.
3. Posts are often made from very limited perspectives. I understand that players can only speak to what they themselves experience, but they often fail to show any concern for opposition or alternative ideas. For example, people complain about DK and Nightblade power all the time relative to the other classes, but nerfing those classes isn't going to help the others perform better. There just seems to be this strange logic that dictates "if my favorite class can't have good things, then neither can yours". Honestly, why can't we all agree we want the best versions of each class where everything feels fun to play and use
4. Posts are often made without consideration for the MULTITUDE of build types that ESO offers. For example, people often complain about Sorc's inability to have both good survivability and good damage output (in PvP), yet I can personally testify to the existence of Sorcs who go toe-to-toe with full-power DKs in this patch. Not to single out Sorcs here though, almost all classes do this, but in the current Meta I find Sorcs are the most common talked about class (Templars are too busy drowning without hope to really complain anymore). It's just a bit ridiculous to try and say that "ALL sorcs are rough this patch" when there are ways to make them good. Maybe it should be more accessible, sure. Maybe they're more limited than other classes, sure. But there's FAR too many ways to make a build, and I think more people should be conscious that any changes made to benefit or weaken a certain type of build will inevitably affect builds that may use completely different playstyles
5. The forums design automatically pushes recently commented-on posts to the top. Hence, topics that spark a lot of controversy, or posts that incite a large resistance from the community are often dragged to the top. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it does mean issues that are being talked about are theoretically being pushed to the forefront, but it does mean that posts that make people agree (in which case, they'll hit the agree button and not leave a comment) get ignored and fall to the wayside

Y'all are free to disagree with me, but I think that a large portion of the active posters in these forums need to show a bit more empathy for both the devs (yeah, I know, they have PROBLEMS, but if we don't acknowledge the things they do right than we're no better at listening to them than they are at listening to us) and our fellow players who are enjoying using powerful classes and set-ups. Classes shouldn't be badgered for being strong (please read the word "strong" and realize there's a difference between strong and over-powered. OP stuff should be tuned down because, by definition, it makes everything else super weak in comparison), we should want all classes to be strong (or would you prefer all classes to be as weak? And no, medium-to-middle isn't really an option, because there's NO WAY the devs could actually manage to fine tune all the classes to get there, not a chance).

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

1. This is a forum for the PTS. PTS feedback is naturally going to be mostly complains, and bug reports.

2. The reason you mainly hear from PvPers is because PvP is the only part of the game where class balance really actually matters. Since it's the only time classes actually get pitted head-to-head in day-to-day gameplay. Alll that needs to be considered for PvE balance is that all classes can reasonably clear up vet/vetHM content with appropriate player skill. But in PvP things like defensive imbalances make a severe impact. Whereas PVE complains mainly revolve around of which class is dominating the top of the leaderboards, a niche that is irrelevant for the vast majority of day-to-day gameplay.

3. Nerfing overperforming features is just as important as buffing underperforming ones. This is how content, in both PVP and PVE aspects of the game can be balanced. If one class is so strong that they can blow through content that other classes will struggle with, then it is extremely difficult to balance. ZOS has a history of balancing hardmode content in particular around the top 1% of gameplay. If that 1% is only reachable by certain classes, then those classes to need to be reined in to allow the content to be balanced for everyone. I don't think anyone is objecting to classes being "strong" but when top performing classes are getting 10% (named, or unnamed) damage buffs out of the blue, and strugglign classes are getting nothing, there is a major problem.

4. "There are good sets", and "extremely good players exist" has nothing to do with the fundamental realities of what a class's toolkit offers. It is a fact of the game that if you take two equally skilled players, one on Sorc, one on DK (or NB), the Sorc player loses. The Sorc toolkit simply lacks the level of buff/debuff access and synergistic ability design that top performing classes do. The only way a Sorc is good this patch is if it almost completely abandons its in-class toolkit and relies on weapon and guild skills and relies on proc sets to completely carry both defense and offense. Other classes have viable builds that work with their class skills. Now, I can't really speak to Templar, but from my perspective, they have excellent defensive capability and one of, if not the best, executes in the game right now. Yes, they did get hit pretty hard by nerfs recently, but at least in terms of survivability and small-scale play, IMO, they're still head-and-shoulders above Sorcerer.

That said, I 100% agree that a lot of the time we aren't giving ZOS due credit for the things they are doing well.
On that note; I'm very much looking forward to the next chapter, from what we've seen it looks like they put in a lot of really hard work to make it freaking awesome. And the dungeon design recently has been top notch.

MurkyWetWolf198 · February 2023

@acastanza_ESO These are fair points.

1. I agree that PvPers speak up more due to the more important aspect that class balance plays in PvP. That being siad, my issue is not with focusing on balance, but that PvP posts on the forums often attempt to fix PvP issues without proper considerations for the impacts on PvE
2. I do not claim that "well, because I know there is 1 Sorc build that's good, the class is fine". Rather, I'm pushing for a more overall look at each class, as I feel that comparisons between classes often focus on either the peaks or valleys of a class's potential. This is unrealistic imo, because most players are not the best of the best or worst of the worst. For example, a lot of people agree DK is strong right now, which I would agree with. However, calls to nerf DK are a bit much (excluding the Major Berserk on Chains, that's just nutty lol) imo, and I am rather tired of seeing people complain about the power level of a good class. For most players, I'd argue that DK's current state is just fine, and other classes should be brought to about the same (though perhaps a hit to Coagulating and maybe Corrosive would be warranted, as well as fixing the cost reduction exploit with Ash Cloud and morphs). The only class that may be too strong right now is possibly Nightblade, because while Incap and Bow proc may have some downsides with being dodge-able and somewhat intensive to set-up, many players don't have the internet connection and performance to actually use these weaknesses in a fight, and just get hit with 30k burst over 2 GCDs (10k incap and 20k bow) before they really have a chance to react. Granted, I'm a console player, maybe it's more balanced on PC due to better performance, but it's a problem over here that most players have no real means of fighting against besides holding block 24/7.
3. Just to reiterate and establish my point from 2., I am pointing out a problem with the community discussion of the classes, not the actual approach to balance (separate issue, not gonna touch that here, only really intend t discuss the forums themselves). Posts that discuss class balance focus on the extremes of each class, and while these are important, they should not really be the focus of discussion imo. What should be considered is the current average player experience, not the top 1% or bottom 1%

All of that being said, I'm glad we agree that ZOS should get some appreciation for the good changes and good content. I too love the recent dungeons, and honestly have enjoyed pretty much every single pair since BDV dropped. Furthermore, DSR is my favorite trial, as it's far more mechanically oriented and engaging than many of the straight up dps checks that bosses turned into (looking at you VRG HM).

Tannus15 · February 2023

1. You're right that people focus on the negative aspects of the PTS, but exactly what discussion do you expect around the positive aspects?

"I think the enchantment changes are great!"
"So do I!"

100 comments of people agreeing that they are great for a week?

The stuff that's going to spark discussion is something like the DK major berserk change, which the biggest buff of the patch going to the strongest class on live. It's not surprising that people are concerned about it, or in the case of sorcs, feeling over looked. As you point out in your own post in point 5, by the end of week 1 it's going to be focused on pain points because that's where the discussion is to be had. ZoS can pretty much assume that if no one is talking about it then it's an ok change.

2. For the most part class "balance" is going to be discussed from a PvP perspective, because honestly it doesn't matter that much in PvE. Any class can run mostly non class skills and do ok. with the damage standards put in place it really comes down to outliers and passives. At the top end of PvE it really matters however which is why when you look at the HM group compositions in ESOLOGS it's basically all DK's and some necros.

3. I'm not actually seeing anyone asking for nerfs this patch. It's pretty much either people pointing out that DK's are very strong already and don't need major berserk or asking for buffs for templar or sorc.

4. On the topic of sorcs, they have felt neglected by the devs from LAST patch. U35 gutted the class, literally every skill was nerfed and the crystal weapon build went from BIS to obliterated. Then the dev's acknowledged they were over nerfed and promised some help, and the entirety of that help was to buff the pet dps benefit from prey.

Sorcs are still holding out hope that they will get that promised help and then it comes in the form of a buff to shields, leaving a class that is based around combo burst dps lacking the power they need in PVP and feeling inferior if they try and copy a tanky sustained pressure build because they have no class dots and no burst heal. This isn't really a subjective opinion, this is just the state of the class right now.

Likewise in PVE there was one unique benefit that sorcs could bring to the table, which was major berserk from the atro which is looking irrelevant now because of wrecking blow or DK chains.

Since update 35 they are forced to slot both pets because 1 pet or no pet builds are severely lacking in dps because again, the "help" they got was a buff to daedric prey.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

I think the issue with the "negativity" is that people misconstrue asking for buffs by comparing abilities to the stronger version that other classes get is asking for those other classes to be nerfed, when the majority don't want that at all, they only want to bring their class up to that level (at least that's the case with most of the sorc threads) and they are using those other classes as an example of the level to where they think their class can be buffed to since that power level already exists on other classes in the game.

Tannus made a very good point about sorcs though and why there are so many threads discussing it lately.
We were promised fixes and buffs at the end of U35 because the dev team realized they went way too far nerfing the class in that update and all we got was a massive, unneeded buff to pet builds that only work in pve or as a cheese build in duels, while everything else remained mediocre. This was also completely ignored through U36 with no changes in that update and then in this pts, we were given a buff to shields that was also not what the players were asking for.
So many sorc players feel that they are being ignored and the class is being neglected (almost deliberately at this point) and that the devs just aren't listening to the players regarding where the issues with the class actually lies and instead just going off in a random direction that provides an unnecessary buff that will 100% get overnerfed again the following patch with no compensatory buffs/fixes that leaves the class in as bad or worse state than it was before the buff (same thing happened with crystal weapon in U34 and rune cage a long time ago).

It also doesn't help when there are people who don't play the class at all, or they "FOTM/meta hop" between all of the classes and only ever play the class when it gets an OP buff from zos, who then come onto sorc threads and spam misinformation about the class claiming it as "OP" because the last time they played it (or got killed by it in pvp) it actually was OP back then because of a poorly thought out and unbalanced buff from zos, and those people have no clue as to what the current state of the class actually is outside of those random, sporadic, overbuffs so they antagonize, bait and bash their way to derailing what were otherwise civil threads discussing the class.

ForumBully · February 2023

This is the PTS forum, so it's important that anything negative be brought up fast, and even when we do it's unlikely to be fixed by launch.
Whatever changes happen during this testing window we will have to live with for months, so if you want to send them a thank you note you're free to do so.