Arcanist portal and Cyrodiil

BlueRaven · January 2023

I was not sure to post this here or the pvp section, so if I chose poorly, I am sorry.

With the arcanist portal ability (which is supposed to be able to be put up on cliff sides to help exploration) are they going to be able to just teleport onto an enemy keep?

Can they teleport across a river when the bridges are destroyed? Etc

I think the portal ability is cool, but I can see abuses in pvp.

Necrotech_Master · January 2023

they probably have some kind of max range, like the warden traps or NB shadow image

most ranged skills tend to have a range of 28 meters, and in some places have limitations on where you can use them (like the safety towers in IC probably)

BlueRaven · January 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

they probably have some kind of max range, like the warden traps or NB shadow image

most ranged skills tend to have a range of 28 meters, and in some places have limitations on where you can use them (like the safety towers in IC probably)

I hope you are correct, I just don’t want to see the ability nerfed for pve because of pvp abuses.

Melivar · January 2023

Hopefully they are not abuseable but we won't see any information about the details until early to mid April since there is a June release date. Should be pretty easy to make a max vertical height distance that is useable so you can't get onto walls.

IIRC they adjusted the DK leap to prevent getting onto walls so the same could apply here.

Thecompton73 · January 2023

The "cliff" in the demo is only about half the height of a wall and will probably be the limit. And while portals will certainly be used by trolls in keeps to escape pursuers I'm sure the Devs will have the range set so that you can't teleport far enough to get over broken bridges, get from surrounding hills onto outer walls, or from the roof of the outer wall gatehouse to the inner keep. It will make getting through breaches quite a bit easier though, cast at an angle and pop right past the kill zone.
I'd count on at least on of the ultimates to be broken OP for a couple of months to drive sales before it gets brought back in line with everything else. But when it gets nerfed it won't be because of people complaining, it will be because it was part of ZOS's typical strategy.

VaranisArano · January 2023

Bypassing the need to siege down doors and walls through use of skills or strategically placed trees has generally been treated as an exploit. ZOS is not particularly quick about fixing it, but it's been called out as a reportable offense in the past.

As a result, DK chains and leap are pretty buggy on uneven terrain because the Devs nailed down edge cases. It's also caused the Devs to have to nail down access to "safe" Imperial City platforms like the ledges right outside the bases from Warden portals and leaps.

I am not confident that the Devs/Quality Assurance teams have tested all the ins and outs of Cyrodiil and Imperial City for portal abuse. And unfortunately, past experience leads me to expect that holes discovered on PTS will make it to Live, where fixes will not be particular quick in coming.

But who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

Thecompton73 · January 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bypassing the need to siege down doors and walls through use of skills or strategically placed trees has generally been treated as an exploit. ZOS is not particularly quick about fixing it, but it's been called out as a reportable offense in the past.

As a result, DK chains and leap are pretty buggy on uneven terrain because the Devs nailed down edge cases. It's also caused the Devs to have to nail down access to "safe" Imperial City platforms like the ledges right outside the bases from Warden portals and leaps.

I am not confident that the Devs/Quality Assurance teams have tested all the ins and outs of Cyrodiil and Imperial City for portal abuse. And unfortunately, past experience leads me to expect that holes discovered on PTS will make it to Live, where fixes will not be particular quick in coming.

But who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

Portals are a different type of ability since they don't require a target. The mechanic is more akin to a reverse Frozen retreat. Testing in Cyro should be fairly simple, run around each keep and attempt to cast a portal from any raised terrain that is near a wall onto it.

Necrotech_Master · January 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bypassing the need to siege down doors and walls through use of skills or strategically placed trees has generally been treated as an exploit. ZOS is not particularly quick about fixing it, but it's been called out as a reportable offense in the past.

As a result, DK chains and leap are pretty buggy on uneven terrain because the Devs nailed down edge cases. It's also caused the Devs to have to nail down access to "safe" Imperial City platforms like the ledges right outside the bases from Warden portals and leaps.

I am not confident that the Devs/Quality Assurance teams have tested all the ins and outs of Cyrodiil and Imperial City for portal abuse. And unfortunately, past experience leads me to expect that holes discovered on PTS will make it to Live, where fixes will not be particular quick in coming.

But who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

imperial city is a weird case with all of its range suppression stuff for chains

stuff like the beckoning armor for necro doesnt work when you are up on the tower, but it can work if you are not on a tower and the target is up on the tower

the warden trap also works the same, you cant place it on the ground below the tower while up on the tower, but it does work the other way if you are on the ground and get the trap on the tower

some gap closers do also still work to leap up to the towers (notably WW one and DK leap), but there is a kill field on the tower than makes this useless to use anyway

jaws343 · January 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bypassing the need to siege down doors and walls through use of skills or strategically placed trees has generally been treated as an exploit. ZOS is not particularly quick about fixing it, but it's been called out as a reportable offense in the past.

As a result, DK chains and leap are pretty buggy on uneven terrain because the Devs nailed down edge cases. It's also caused the Devs to have to nail down access to "safe" Imperial City platforms like the ledges right outside the bases from Warden portals and leaps.

I am not confident that the Devs/Quality Assurance teams have tested all the ins and outs of Cyrodiil and Imperial City for portal abuse. And unfortunately, past experience leads me to expect that holes discovered on PTS will make it to Live, where fixes will not be particular quick in coming.

But who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

Portals are a different type of ability since they don't require a target. The mechanic is more akin to a reverse Frozen retreat. Testing in Cyro should be fairly simple, run around each keep and attempt to cast a portal from any raised terrain that is near a wall onto it.

I expect (hope) that they take the closed keep stuff into account for implementation. What I am more interested in is the ability to use the skill to jump up into different levels of resource towers or inner/outer keep levels. Could make chasing an Arcanist in a tower a complete nightmare.

Especially when they will almost certainly be able to use the ability to get onto rocks in open world that other player will never be able to climb on top of.

Surragard · January 2023

Reminds me of the bug when you could use reverse chains to climb a keep wall. I’m sure there will be some issues but it will get patched out in time.

Thecompton73 · January 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bypassing the need to siege down doors and walls through use of skills or strategically placed trees has generally been treated as an exploit. ZOS is not particularly quick about fixing it, but it's been called out as a reportable offense in the past.

As a result, DK chains and leap are pretty buggy on uneven terrain because the Devs nailed down edge cases. It's also caused the Devs to have to nail down access to "safe" Imperial City platforms like the ledges right outside the bases from Warden portals and leaps.

I am not confident that the Devs/Quality Assurance teams have tested all the ins and outs of Cyrodiil and Imperial City for portal abuse. And unfortunately, past experience leads me to expect that holes discovered on PTS will make it to Live, where fixes will not be particular quick in coming.

But who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

Portals are a different type of ability since they don't require a target. The mechanic is more akin to a reverse Frozen retreat. Testing in Cyro should be fairly simple, run around each keep and attempt to cast a portal from any raised terrain that is near a wall onto it.

I expect (hope) that they take the closed keep stuff into account for implementation. What I am more interested in is the ability to use the skill to jump up into different levels of resource towers or inner/outer keep levels. Could make chasing an Arcanist in a tower a complete nightmare.

Especially when they will almost certainly be able to use the ability to get onto rocks in open world that other player will never be able to climb on top of.

Not much to go on yet but in the demo I got the impression it's a straight line ability like streak. Probably won't be a problem in towers but could be pain to catch somone using it along interior walls or out in open terrain with rock formations.

Nihilr · January 2023

So because we can cast ground effects like caltrops and even Storm Atro ult onto keep walls I'd imagine it can be abused, unless they do a height maximum separate from the range--like when they stopped allowing players to teleport/leap to enemies using Templar Spear or Two-Handed Rush.

Akasha_Mei · January 2023

Be sure people will find out sooner or later, a way to abuse the skills...

FeedbackOnly · January 2023

Some skills just exceptions. Like chains in imperial city.

Finedaible · January 2023

I suspect what will go down is people will report all the issues with the new class very early on the PTS but nothing will be done about it. People will then continue to pre-order and buy the chapter up to about 2-3months after release with the confidence that nothing will change, and then anything fun or exploitative about the class will get absolutely destroyed in both PvP and PvE in a major overhaul of the game. This is why I don't pre-order anything anymore, the real testing occurs on Live server now.

Seraphayel · January 2023

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

Thecompton73 · January 2023

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

Seraphayel · January 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Thecompton73 · January 2023

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Regardless of how comparable the two are do you really think with the power they currently allow organized groups in Cyro they're going to suddenly decide to gimp a new class ability (that they want to sell as many as possible of) because it would be unfair? And if you think you're using the portal to get on/off walls or towers I think you'll be disappointed at just how much vertical elevation the skill will allow.

BlueRaven · January 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Regardless of how comparable the two are do you really think with the power they currently allow organized groups in Cyro they're going to suddenly decide to gimp a new class ability (that they want to sell as many as possible of) because it would be unfair? And if you think you're using the portal to get on/off walls or towers I think you'll be disappointed at just how much vertical elevation the skill will allow.

Well. I have been thinking about it more. And there is going to be a ton of readjustments in pvp beyond the possible.elevated wall issue.

Choke points, like when the front door to a castle or keep goes down, may become harder to defend if the attackers can just teleport beyond the hot oil spam.

Setting up a defense inside a keep may be harder if they can just group teleport behind your set up ballistas.

Can they set up teleports to get past destroyed gates? (I forget the term for the destroyable walls between keeps in cyrodiil. Sorry.)

And in IC Arcanists may be able teleport from one building to another to previously inaccessible roof tops.

That movement ability is going to break a lot of general practices I think. Should be interesting.

Dojohoda · January 2023

I can't wait to see players accidentally portal off the wall into the waiting maw of the enemies.

Thecompton73 · January 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Regardless of how comparable the two are do you really think with the power they currently allow organized groups in Cyro they're going to suddenly decide to gimp a new class ability (that they want to sell as many as possible of) because it would be unfair? And if you think you're using the portal to get on/off walls or towers I think you'll be disappointed at just how much vertical elevation the skill will allow.

Well. I have been thinking about it more. And there is going to be a ton of readjustments in pvp beyond the possible.elevated wall issue.

Choke points, like when the front door to a castle or keep goes down, may become harder to defend if the attackers can just teleport beyond the hot oil spam.

Setting up a defense inside a keep may be harder if they can just group teleport behind your set up ballistas.

Can they set up teleports to get past destroyed gates? (I forget the term for the destroyable walls between keeps in cyrodiil. Sorry.)

And in IC Arcanists may be able teleport from one building to another to previously inaccessible roof tops.

That movement ability is going to break a lot of general practices I think. Should be interesting.

The gates are as high as the keep walls so that doesn't seem likely. However it will make a huge impact on defending breaches as the distance certainly looks far enough to bypass the chokepoint/killzone.
Sorcs can already get to many places no one else can but it hasn't affected game play at all since they're all out of the way and of no strategic importance.

Seraphayel · January 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Regardless of how comparable the two are do you really think with the power they currently allow organized groups in Cyro they're going to suddenly decide to gimp a new class ability (that they want to sell as many as possible of) because it would be unfair? And if you think you're using the portal to get on/off walls or towers I think you'll be disappointed at just how much vertical elevation the skill will allow.

Yes, I absolutely think so. The outrage would be way bigger than the "selling factor" for said skill.

As you can see in the video, the portal is able to be cast on higher elevation you cannot reach by jumping etc. - that alone is a massive advantage in PvP to outsmart your opponents. If the portal somehow can be used by allies to travel through, it will be a gamechanger for almost every fight and be outright abusive. While I think the gameplay would be really fun, it's just a lot of opportunities to create unfair advantages. If the portal usage is limited to the caster, I don't see major problems.

Thecompton73 · February 2023

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Either the skill will be disabled in PvP or it will be limited to 1 or 2 teleports. It's too abusive of an ability for PvP.

there isn't a single skill in the game that doesn't work in PvP, I highly doubt they're going to gimp sales of the new chapter/class by starting now. Besides it's basically the Sorc streak with telegraphed start and end points.

It‘s supposedly a group teleport and not just a glorified blink aka Streak. There’s a huge difference and a lot of abusive behavior. Streak is horizontal, whereas the portal is not. Both skills are not comparable.

Regardless of how comparable the two are do you really think with the power they currently allow organized groups in Cyro they're going to suddenly decide to gimp a new class ability (that they want to sell as many as possible of) because it would be unfair? And if you think you're using the portal to get on/off walls or towers I think you'll be disappointed at just how much vertical elevation the skill will allow.

Yes, I absolutely think so. The outrage would be way bigger than the "selling factor" for said skill.

As you can see in the video, the portal is able to be cast on higher elevation you cannot reach by jumping etc. - that alone is a massive advantage in PvP to outsmart your opponents. If the portal somehow can be used by allies to travel through, it will be a gamechanger for almost every fight and be outright abusive. While I think the gameplay would be really fun, it's just a lot of opportunities to create unfair advantages. If the portal usage is limited to the caster, I don't see major problems.

The outrage and warnings of imbalance didn't make them change Necro bash builds before release, it didn't get them to change Oakensoul, Malacath or Sea Serpent before they met their sales quota. There is a reason they highlighted the ability in the preview, it's a main selling point of the class that comes with purchase of the chapter. Now if it comes out and it clearly is something that is abused it will get nerfed in 3-6 months. But selling points of chapters go live no matter the uproar because people will complain, then give in a buy it to be on even ground.

ADarklore · February 2023

They will probably disable it in Cyrodiil... or severely handicap it there.

Thecompton73 · February 2023

ADarklore wrote: »

They will probably disable it in Cyrodiil... or severely handicap it there.

I'd be willing to put a large sum of money down against that happening if there were a sports-book taking bets on it.