Class Identity & Combat Identity Idea

ACamaroGuy · January 2023

This game lacks class identity. If you're a magicka player, you wear 'X' for META or if you're a stamina player you wear 'X' for META...so on & so on. How about some changes & here's my ideas.
1) Every class should have an ability to spam, like the Templar. The Templar is a perfect example (my opinion).
2) No generic skill line should outperform your class ability skill lines. Generic skill lines should buff your class abilities or just fill in during a rotation between using class abilities.
- Now let's discuss combat & how groups are made. -
*Trials* There are 8 dps players during a trial, they should each bring their own kind of damaging pain to the fights. For the builds let's just use False God's Devotion as the magicka default & Vicious Serpent as the default stamina dps set. Of course, these are subject to change but let's just use these as the default to keep things simple.
1) Sorcerer's & Templar's could be the AoE dps builds. Sorcerers are a lightning class. Sets like Netch's Touch, Thunder Caller, Armor of Truth, Overwhelming Surge & Auroran's Thunder should be part of the build. The Templar could be more of a critical AoE build & use sets along the line of Elemental Catalyst or Dagon's Dominion along with the before mentioned sets. Now these classes bring the concussion status effect to the fight.
2) Warden could be your ice dps builds. Sets to use could be Ice Furnace, Icy Conjurer, Frostbite or Whorl of Depths. Now we bring the chilled status effect to the fight.
3) Nightblade, single target dps (let's be honest here, a stealthy assassin or thief is not going to want to fight many people. They want to do what they have to do, get in quickly, quietly & with little notice brought upon themselves). Bleed damage dps build. Sets used could be Blooddrinker, Pillar of Nirn, Crimson Twilight, Dro'Zakar's Claws or even Aegis Caller.
3) Necromancers could be our disease/poison dps builds. Sets used could be Phylactery's Grasp, Viper's Sting, Sheer Venom, Azureblight Reaper or Scavenging Demise.
4) Dragon knights could be our single target flame damage build. Sets to use could be Burning Spell Weave, Sunder Blossom or Sunderflame.
5) We could throw in support builds to help buff the group. These builds could use sets like Roaring Opportunist, Vestment of Olorime or Pearlescent Ward (keeping the list short here).
6) Healers. Using the idea of #5, we can now have the healers use actual healer sets to blast out those high number heals to the group. Sets could be Prayer Shawl, Combat Physician, Gossamer, Stones Accord, Draugr's Rest & Spell Power Cure to name a few.
7) Tanks. Again using #5's idea tanks could be more tank like. Sets used could be Jolting Arms, Brands of Imperium, Duneripper's Scales, Aspect of Mazzatun or Almalexia's Mercy to name a few.
8) Let's change the Imperial race up a bit as well. It's purchased race. Let's get a more diverse use of it. This race should be average at tanking, magicka dps, stamina dps, etc.
9) Enemies we fight will need to be adjusted on these new ideas. Mechanics will need to change, resistances to status effects will need to be adjusted, etc. Sets will need to be adjusted as well along with races, classes & skill lines. It's just too much to get into right now.
Now every class will be able to perform AoE, single, ice or poison target dps, it's just some classes will be better at it. Races should be where we go to find out who's a better magicka/stamina dps, tank or healer.
I'm not going to go down the rabbit trail of monster helms or mythic items to use. Thats up to the player & how the builds actually wok, etc. Of course, destruction staffs, dual wield or one-handed weapons can be thrown into the mix depending on the build or desired need.

I hope you all get the idea of what I'm trying to express here. I'm looking forward to your feedback. I hope you have a great day.

SwoopIM · January 2023

There is a lack of distinct class identity these days, but it didn't used to be this way. I speak from a 7-ish year perspective. You used to be a stamina this or a magicka that. The Devs' have homogenized all the skills so that magicka builds can use stamina skills and visa versa. Maybe that's good in some ways as you now have access to way more skills than you used to, but I think it it has blurred the classes in many ways. Many of the old class passives have been nerfed or modified over time; they seem to me to be less impactful. All the "balancing" (to me) seems to have contributed to this watering down in class identity. I would submit that "imbalance" in certain distinct class skills is desirable. You mention Templar and Jabs, and yes it was distinctive and yup--it got horribly nerfed.
A lot of the classes and gear sets you cite are already (or were) in use to some extent. The problem with gear sets is we have way (WAY) too many, 95% of them are virtually worthless or have been nerfed to the point that they are no longer used. There are only a handful of actually good gear sets and everyone farms and equips those "meta" sets. I think the Dev's dangle the nice shiny OP set as a carrot to entice people to buy the next release, then nerf it 6 months later (looking at you Oakensoul--and yes it was ridiculously OP). Now are you are suggesting that only certain classes can only use certain gear sets? Hmm! My guess is that one class with one meta gear set will emerge as "the best" and everyone will then play it and everyone will whine about it being OP and the Devs' will nerf it and here we go again. It's the ESO cycle--just look at their moniker: 3 snakes chasing each others' tails 'round and 'round. I am not sure where the Dev's are taking us and not entirely sure they know either.

ACamaroGuy · January 2023

SwoopIM wrote: »

There is a lack of distinct class identity these days, but it didn't used to be this way. I speak from a 7-ish year perspective. You used to be a stamina this or a magicka that. The Devs' have homogenized all the skills so that magicka builds can use stamina skills and visa versa. Maybe that's good in some ways as you now have access to way more skills than you used to, but I think it it has blurred the classes in many ways. Many of the old class passives have been nerfed or modified over time; they seem to me to be less impactful. All the "balancing" (to me) seems to have contributed to this watering down in class identity. I would submit that "imbalance" in certain distinct class skills is desirable. You mention Templar and Jabs, and yes it was distinctive and yup--it got horribly nerfed.
A lot of the classes and gear sets you cite are already (or were) in use to some extent. The problem with gear sets is we have way (WAY) too many, 95% of them are virtually worthless or have been nerfed to the point that they are no longer used. There are only a handful of actually good gear sets and everyone farms and equips those "meta" sets. I think the Dev's dangle the nice shiny OP set as a carrot to entice people to buy the next release, then nerf it 6 months later (looking at you Oakensoul--and yes it was ridiculously OP). Now are you are suggesting that only certain classes can only use certain gear sets? Hmm! My guess is that one class with one meta gear set will emerge as "the best" and everyone will then play it and everyone will whine about it being OP and the Devs' will nerf it and here we go again. It's the ESO cycle--just look at their moniker: 3 snakes chasing each others' tails 'round and 'round. I am not sure where the Dev's are taking us and not entirely sure they know either.

Let's say you want to play a Sorcerer. You just love Star Wars and the though of playing a high elf lightning MagSorc is just tickling your funny bone. You could do with with let's say Netch's Touch, False God's Devotion and Slimecraw. A lightning staff double bar is your way to go. Let's say that for a high elf MagSorc this gear set-up is also the META. Overland, dungeons or trials you are playing a META build that is built for your play style. Same goes if you love the idea of a frost Warden. You can play META with the style you want to play in all types of game play. You can play what you want with the type of play you want and have META gear that fits the class/race. It's a win win.

Urzigurumash · January 2023

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

1) Every class should have an ability to spam, like the Templar. The Templar is a perfect example (my opinion).
2) No generic skill line should outperform your class ability skill lines. Generic skill lines should buff your class abilities or just fill in during a rotation between using class abilities.

From a 6 Class perspective yes but only 1 class spammable leaves little room for Warrior / Mage / Thief sub-Classes. I.e., StamDK/Sorc reliance on Dizzy Swing differentiated the Warrior type clearly from the Whip/Frags Mage type.

I thought it was more thematically appropriate when some sub-classes depended on generic skills.

But as you say, generic skills should "fill in", for a long time Dizzy Swing (in PvP) wasn't really a "spammable", more of a combo component. Just repeatedly spamming one skill should be discouraged for all playstyles / content, it's not compelling.

Paulytnz · January 2023

Wow what a word wall the OP was, and the first reply too (you sort of have paragraphs, you just forgot to hit enter between them)......

Sorry but due to that fact I barely read more than a few lines. But I will say, whenever I hear the words "class Identity" all I think of is "cookie cut" forced skills to take, and that's pretty much what your first suggestion leads to. Everyone just forced to take class skill lines because they would be the strongest skills - no thanks.

EDIT - I am Soooooo hoping Spellcrafting is coming this year - that should ideally stop all this talk of "class identity" nonsense!

ACamaroGuy · January 2023

Paulytnz wrote: »

Wow what a word wall the OP was, and the first reply too (you sort of have paragraphs, you just forgot to hit enter between them)......

Sorry but due to that fact I barely read more than a few lines. But I will say, whenever I hear the words "class Identity" all I think of is "cookie cut" forced skills to take, and that's pretty much what your first suggestion leads to. Everyone just forced to take class skill lines because they would be the strongest skills - no thanks.

EDIT - I am Soooooo hoping Spellcrafting is coming this year - that should ideally stop all this talk of "class identity" nonsense!

Aren't we 'forced' to take certain skill lines anyway? If you read what I posted (paragraphs are irrelevant) then you would see that I suggest that you lay how/what you want. If you don't like a class ability skill line, find a class that fits what you are looking to play. This will separate you from you the other available classes. That will remove the 'cookis cutter' play stylefor end game.

INM · January 2023

The biggest offender to identity is lack of mechanical differences and not color/damage type of abilities.

Destai · January 2023

I feel like there's tension between taking class skills and weapon skills. In many cases, it seems like weapon skills are preferred for spammables over class skills. I don't see the class skills lacking character, but rather the trend standard meta builds that require nearly the same weapon skills across classes. That leaves the class skills are flavorings over what's essentially the same build. I like that you can build from each skill kit, but the meta drives standardization. I also think it'd help if each class had a unique buff/debuff more strongly.

AnduinTryggva · January 2023

To be honest there should be, imho, no weapon skill available except for a specific warrior class. People could still use their preferred weapon for light or heavy attacks with the same ressource management as of now.

But weapon skills should be reserved to a warrior class.

As this would reduce the pool of skills available for each player there should be slight increase in additional skills per class and for each weapon type. But maybe not enough to compensate for the loss of the weapon skill pool. In thus way often neglected skill lines may get a bit more attention...

Captain_Devildog · January 2023

They destroyed the Templar identity with his spammable.. it is now against the lore and it feels weird..

The_Titan_Tim · January 2023

Ever since this game was conceptualized, the development team have been pushing it in a direction towards the traditional TES game’s format, Oblivion being the main inspiration for this; as ESO began development shortly after it came out.

Why this is relevant; would be that if you look at traditional Elder Scrolls titles, and the massive continuous success they have had over the years, there are traditions that are followed.

One such tradition would be…
- Freedom of Character Development

What this means, is that your character develops as you play it, that there isn’t a set development for it. For example, let’s say you had this idea in your head that you wanted to be a Mage, you started your game off, you picked whatever class you wanted for the immediate bonuses they provided…

Then after an hour in your game you killed a bandit leader and found a really cool greatsword…

Originally you had this idea to be a Mage, but you really want to use that awesome looking weapon, so you decided to start using it…

Now after fighting your way through another camp you stumbled upon some medium or heavy armor, and although they weren’t robes, you noticed they had better stats than what you had, or looked more cool; so you threw those on too…

Eventually multiple hours in, you find yourself completely lost within the game having a blast, making your own class entirely.

I feel like that is something really special that prior Elder Scrolls games captured phenomenally while this game is lacking in comparison. I believe Zenimax have been trying to recapture that feeling, and tomorrow, if we see Spellcrafting, it will be a step in the right direction.

Amottica · January 2023

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

T2) No generic skill line should outperform your class ability skill lines. Generic skill lines should buff your class abilities or just fill in during a rotation between using class abilities.

While we do not have any generic skill lines, we do have a lot of shared skill lines. There has to be a reason to use some of those skills or they become pointless skill lines. There are no if ands or buts about that.

Given that, this game will never, ever, have the same class flavor of combat builds that games such as WoW have because we do not have the extremely rigid build designs that those types of games have.

So the real issue is balancing the usefulness of class skills with the shared skill lines so there are some of both being used in meta builds.

And with that, it will always be in flux because the changes for overall balance sake will change the chemistry in builds. We see this all the time.

FeedbackOnly · January 2023

I personally think it's fine. It's a lot better than it used to be

ACamaroGuy · January 2023

Amottica wrote: »

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

T2) No generic skill line should outperform your class ability skill lines. Generic skill lines should buff your class abilities or just fill in during a rotation between using class abilities.

While we do not have any generic skill lines, we do have a lot of shared skill lines. There has to be a reason to use some of those skills or they become pointless skill lines. There are no if ands or buts about that.

Given that, this game will never, ever, have the same class flavor of combat builds that games such as WoW have because we do not have the extremely rigid build designs that those types of games have.

So the real issue is balancing the usefulness of class skills with the shared skill lines so there are some of both being used in meta builds.

And with that, it will always be in flux because the changes for overall balance sake will change the chemistry in builds. We see this all the time.

Shared skill lines are the generic skill lines and yes, we would be using them. They would be used to buff class ability skills or fill in during a rotation.