TaSheen wrote: »

Actually, there's no reason for the devs to change the status quo. None at all. There's a few people who really want to see a GAH - and the devs aren't interested.

Of course, if the devs become interested in a GAH, then all bets are off.

There are a number of mechanisms that have been discussed (including some in this thread) to address specific grievances with the trading system that do not require the extreme measure of junking the whole thing in favour of a centralised auction house, and they do merit consideration.

Two examples:

1. For players who strongly dislike the selling mechanism being gated behind player controlled guilds, the introduction of sort of "pauper traders" that charge a much higher cut to the player and operate in the same way as guild traders (ie with dedicated NPC traders in fixed locations) but open to all. The limitations on them would need to be adequate to stop them becoming too competitive with guild traders themselves, but such a move would accommodate the desire to keep the trader system broadly as it is now, while giving a channel for those players who really, really dislike the need to join a guild to access a sales channel. And, honestly, spamming zone chat is not a selling mechanism that provides a realistic alternative.

2. Various proposals to improve the listing of items, whether it be having a collective list for every trader in a city, every trader in a zone, or whatever, just to make navigating the system a little bit more straightforward without changing its fundamentals.

These and other examples are tweaks, more than revolutionary changes, and it's hard to see how they would have any negative impact on players who like the existing system or would change the character of it.

Iii

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Economy

What needs to change?

• The guild trader system alone is failing and in need of a massive overhaul. ESO has come out after older MMORPG's such as RuneScape, and FFXIV which have paved the way laying down ground work of what ESO should have followed and improved.
  <sinip>

Having followed this thread with interest I do not agree that the ESO guild trader system is failing and have not seen any conclusive evidence of this apart from anecdotes.

I also do not see why ESO would have to copy other games trading systems when the current system works well enough. I'm sure they looked at other games trading systems before designing their own. As this was a deliberate developer choice it is extremely doubtful that the changes suggested in the OP would ever be implemented.

A central trading location would be IMHO detrimental to the economy as it would make it rather easy to corner the market for particular commodities.

What would convince you? I doubt any evidence would and that is the core problem.

You can freely discount personal experiences as "anecdotal" but no real data can prove anything. It is hard to find things and hard to find the "usual" price to buy or sell. Some greatly benefit from this hidden information and argue that maintaining it is the best. Others, likely far more of the population either argue against it (limited numbers) or simply dislike it and it becomes another pebble in the shoe.

Splitting up vendors sounds like a great idea to add color and it is certainly a gold sink, but it is ultimately frustrating who don't have a primary focus there but want to use the system as it could be expected to work.

Though nothing will likely convince you since you don't have a problem with it, so what could make it seem bad to you?

Except this idea isn't a central auction house. It's a central trade guild ah. You still have to bid on a trader to get in, it's just that buyers and sellers don't have to travel to buy. It is still restricted to a small group of people, but would make it easier for sellers to flip and price manipulate, and adding in a global search option that could break the game.

It's the worst of all options combined....

The OP's idea is awesome and would fix alot of issues with the game. The fact that some people are gatekeeping improvements like this is the reason why nobody recommends this mmo anymore.

1

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

Conduct an experiment for yourself, start asking random players in the world if they actually participate and post within the forums. I think you'll be highly surprised...

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of active players contribute to the forums (though it is probable that the people who contribute are mainly active players). We all know that most players don't contribute to the forum, and many might not even be aware of its existence.

However, to then assert that the forums are controlled by a few super-powerful guilds, who organize mass commenting/voting behind the scenes for their own devious purposes, is reminiscent of Q-Anon levels of paranoia.

Also, it is an extremely unpleasant slur to cast about, because there is no defence. How can I (or you) prove that my thoughts are my own, not just the words provided to me by some string pulling guild master?

We have to take all words in good faith, otherwise we will never get anywhere. But I would say that wouldn't I, because I've been told to by my guild master...

That's not the point that's being made here. For example, a lot of people in this thread disagree with this forum, and plenty of them made a point that we should stop trying because it's never going to change and that the players don't want that... So the point that was being made is the player voice is in the forums, but the actual player base aren't in the forums and the average player I personally meet on a regular basis agree with this forum topic yet they're not on the forums to even post a response.

It has long been noticed that the players in the forms are often like monitoring individuals where there's little diversity in the forms as you can see in this forum post topic. However I'm glad that you agree that most players don't participate in the forums.

Now I'm not personally saying that all these players are coming from one-two guilds however I'm not saying that it's not a possibility but that was never my standpoint as if that was someone else's statement.

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

Your personal evidence in assessing the views of the majority of players are equally unreliable - you yourself have selected who to ask, introducing inevitable selection bias however unconscious (see, I too can cast aspersions that have no defence).

I doubt that you have even asked that many, and I doubt that most players would even bother replying as you presented your page long view of the status quo, the issues you perceive with it, the modifications you propose, and the rationale behind them.

But maybe you shorten that to the real reason for this post: "Would you prefer to pay less for the items you want and not have to shop around for them?".

Because most players really aren't interested in the economics of the game, however much they are affected by them.

That's your personal opinion, doesn't make it a fact though but I digress.

Actually my real reason is what I've been saying, "would you rather go to a place and have everything listed in that one place, or would you rather check 100s of different locations to check for products with countless inconsistencies?" Don't go putting words in my mouth just accepted for what it is.

Most players are interested in the economics of the game They just don't come voice it in the forums. Most players just have extremely short attention spans. It's actually crazy to me how you saw various people comment in this forum post that the current system is so frustrating that they have taken a break from the game whether it was quiting and coming back or just putting it down for a while, yet you just dismiss that saying that it doesn't happen. That is extremely ludicrous. Perhaps you're just being extremely biased because you don't want to see the system you love change to better the common player.

By better you mean price rare items out of reach of the common player and price common items so low they have no chance to ever afford those rare items?
Because that is what you are asking for.

That's your personal assumption, not mine, not even close to what the results would be either. Rare items are already often out of reachbdor the common player as they don't even find those items. The common player isn't on PC to benefit outside sources from the game like addon's or TTC. In fact the average player on console doesn't even know TTC exists, so please stop doing that.

I understand that you don't like the suggested changes as it changes a factor that you find fun for yourself and many others may agree with you, but you gotta understand that the common player doesn't benefit, only you few do...

Players just gotta stop being greedy and think of the common player more and make the game more appealing to the common player. That's the fact of it all...

You are making your own assumptions here as well.

Your suggested changes would make it so that you still need to be part of a trade guild to sell on the market, but allow a central place for buying and selling. And then assuming that players will have access to everything and it will all work fine.

Not sure you thought out the darker side of things where players price manipulate, and it would be a lot easier with 1 place to track it all where you can do a search and then buy everything.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

1

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

Conduct an experiment for yourself, start asking random players in the world if they actually participate and post within the forums. I think you'll be highly surprised...

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of active players contribute to the forums (though it is probable that the people who contribute are mainly active players). We all know that most players don't contribute to the forum, and many might not even be aware of its existence.

However, to then assert that the forums are controlled by a few super-powerful guilds, who organize mass commenting/voting behind the scenes for their own devious purposes, is reminiscent of Q-Anon levels of paranoia.

Also, it is an extremely unpleasant slur to cast about, because there is no defence. How can I (or you) prove that my thoughts are my own, not just the words provided to me by some string pulling guild master?

We have to take all words in good faith, otherwise we will never get anywhere. But I would say that wouldn't I, because I've been told to by my guild master...

That's not the point that's being made here. For example, a lot of people in this thread disagree with this forum, and plenty of them made a point that we should stop trying because it's never going to change and that the players don't want that... So the point that was being made is the player voice is in the forums, but the actual player base aren't in the forums and the average player I personally meet on a regular basis agree with this forum topic yet they're not on the forums to even post a response.

It has long been noticed that the players in the forms are often like monitoring individuals where there's little diversity in the forms as you can see in this forum post topic. However I'm glad that you agree that most players don't participate in the forums.

Now I'm not personally saying that all these players are coming from one-two guilds however I'm not saying that it's not a possibility but that was never my standpoint as if that was someone else's statement.

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

Your personal evidence in assessing the views of the majority of players are equally unreliable - you yourself have selected who to ask, introducing inevitable selection bias however unconscious (see, I too can cast aspersions that have no defence).

I doubt that you have even asked that many, and I doubt that most players would even bother replying as you presented your page long view of the status quo, the issues you perceive with it, the modifications you propose, and the rationale behind them.

But maybe you shorten that to the real reason for this post: "Would you prefer to pay less for the items you want and not have to shop around for them?".

Because most players really aren't interested in the economics of the game, however much they are affected by them.

That's your personal opinion, doesn't make it a fact though but I digress.

Actually my real reason is what I've been saying, "would you rather go to a place and have everything listed in that one place, or would you rather check 100s of different locations to check for products with countless inconsistencies?" Don't go putting words in my mouth just accepted for what it is.

Most players are interested in the economics of the game They just don't come voice it in the forums. Most players just have extremely short attention spans. It's actually crazy to me how you saw various people comment in this forum post that the current system is so frustrating that they have taken a break from the game whether it was quiting and coming back or just putting it down for a while, yet you just dismiss that saying that it doesn't happen. That is extremely ludicrous. Perhaps you're just being extremely biased because you don't want to see the system you love change to better the common player.

By better you mean price rare items out of reach of the common player and price common items so low they have no chance to ever afford those rare items?
Because that is what you are asking for.

That's your personal assumption, not mine, not even close to what the results would be either. Rare items are already often out of reachbdor the common player as they don't even find those items. The common player isn't on PC to benefit outside sources from the game like addon's or TTC. In fact the average player on console doesn't even know TTC exists, so please stop doing that.

I understand that you don't like the suggested changes as it changes a factor that you find fun for yourself and many others may agree with you, but you gotta understand that the common player doesn't benefit, only you few do...

Players just gotta stop being greedy and think of the common player more and make the game more appealing to the common player. That's the fact of it all...

You are making your own assumptions here as well.

Your suggested changes would make it so that you still need to be part of a trade guild to sell on the market, but allow a central place for buying and selling. And then assuming that players will have access to everything and it will all work fine.

Not sure you thought out the darker side of things where players price manipulate, and it would be a lot easier with 1 place to track it all where you can do a search and then buy everything.

For one, it's not an assumption, it's a given fact that more players would actually have more of an opportunity, especially the guilds in PvP where you can claim countless resources, towns, and keeps.

With the proposed system, guilds would have more incentive on grabbing locations, contesting locations for the guild, then defending these locations as before, players often would not bother.

With a centralized system, guilds are definitely getting quicker sales which means all traders benefit. Which makes grabbing the PVP traders more appealing even though you could lose them at any given moment. PVP deals with strategically change up their whole dynamic just because they have more incentive though. Trust me I thoroughly already thought this through.

kargen27 wrote: »

How would there be more opportunities? Trade guilds are seeking new members all the time. Every player that wants to buy or sell in the game can do so.
With listing fees players are not going to load up items in a keep trader just to chance losing that trader an hour later. They also are not going to wait around in that keep just to defend a trader no matter what system is in place. People go to PvP land because they like trying to kill other players. The traders there are an after thought if they are a thought at all. Your idea will not change that. Listing items costs gold so players who actually want to sell items are going to put them in a trader they know will last.
Quicker sales goes back to two of our original problems. Common items will drop in price making it not worth farming or listing them. Rare items will be grabbed almost immediately and help until prices are driven higher.

I've offered an idea that I think would help buyers find items quicker. I have another idea that would help sellers and casual guilds. There should be a 2nd and maybe even a third trader placed near every lone trade spot in the game. That means instead of one trader in a thieves den there would be at least two and maybe three. Makes it worth while to run down there and check for goods from time to time.

You're knocking on the door that is shut, locked, and barred.....

been buying and selling stuff pretty much every day since 2016 with no issues, i really dont see the problems people are having with guild traders

James-Wayne wrote: »

Personally, I just want ZOS to lower the entry cost to buy a trader.

Since 2014 I have amassed a huge wealth but unable to get onto any good traders to sell my wares so I would rather just buy a trader myself and sell everything I have (which is a lot, had to buy a third account I have that much stuff).

You wouldn't have to worry about that with the proposed system, you would be selling so much so fast, you wouldn't even be able to keep your listings full unless you were just selling items nobody wanted.

"Let me change your insight, 🤔 have you thought maybe the reason guilds looking for players rather than players looking for guild is because not everyone enjoys the current system?"

Whether that be the case or not it doesn't change anything. You wouldn't ask ZoS to get rid of Vet trials because not everybody participates.

"You say the changest I suggested wouldn't change anything."

No. I say your changes would allow players to monopolize rare items and common items would drop in price. I say your changes would devastate the economy and cause players to leave the game. But as it pertains to PvP yeah it would change nothing.

"That's absolutely redundant, but if if the system was centralized, more players would want to join more pvp guilds"

No they really would not. Players that don't want to PvP complain that they might have to go where PvP happens to do endeavors. Every time we have an event that includes tickets in PvP we get an overload in the forums of playes complaining they don't want to be forced into PvP.
Why join a PvP guild that might only have a trader for an hour when you can join a social guild that will almost always have a trader? THere is zero reason to take that chance and lose your listing fees.
Nobody is going to want to sit at a keep defending it because of a trader. PvP players want to be out interacting with other players. Some want to dominate the map, some want large fights and some like ganking. None of that happens often enough just sitting in one keep to make a PvP'r happy. No way a PvE'r is going to want to sit in Cyrodiil watching a keep.

"Face it, inflation isn't from the black of products, it's simply players driving up prices to insane amounts due to greed in attempts to make more money"

And if that were true your idea makes it easier for those that want to manipulate the market.

This isn't about PvP or the economy. This is about wanting something instantly.

WiseSky wrote: »

If you take away the thrill of me traveling to an obscure guild trying to find amazing deals before it hits the TTC page .... you have ruined trading for me.

The best response to this notion would be, would you sacrifice the world to save yourself?

It just wouldn't be wise for the game where everyone can have a great experience with more opportunities than to those who favor the extra micro manage system set in place that is severely outdated...

kargen27 wrote: »

"Let me change your insight, 🤔 have you thought maybe the reason guilds looking for players rather than players looking for guild is because not everyone enjoys the current system?"

Whether that be the case or not it doesn't change anything. You wouldn't ask ZoS to get rid of Vet trials because not everybody participates.

"You say the changest I suggested wouldn't change anything."

No. I say your changes would allow players to monopolize rare items and common items would drop in price. I say your changes would devastate the economy and cause players to leave the game. But as it pertains to PvP yeah it would change nothing.

"That's absolutely redundant, but if if the system was centralized, more players would want to join more pvp guilds"

No they really would not. Players that don't want to PvP complain that they might have to go where PvP happens to do endeavors. Every time we have an event that includes tickets in PvP we get an overload in the forums of playes complaining they don't want to be forced into PvP.
Why join a PvP guild that might only have a trader for an hour when you can join a social guild that will almost always have a trader? THere is zero reason to take that chance and lose your listing fees.
Nobody is going to want to sit at a keep defending it because of a trader. PvP players want to be out interacting with other players. Some want to dominate the map, some want large fights and some like ganking. None of that happens often enough just sitting in one keep to make a PvP'r happy. No way a PvE'r is going to want to sit in Cyrodiil watching a keep.

"Face it, inflation isn't from the black of products, it's simply players driving up prices to insane amounts due to greed in attempts to make more money"

And if that were true your idea makes it easier for those that want to manipulate the market.

This isn't about PvP or the economy. This is about wanting something instantly.

I wouldn't ask zos to get rid of trials because that's not even the same concept. I'm not asking for zos anything to get "removed" more so updated and replaced... For example, I would ask zos to make all trials have perfected and non perfected gear, even the old trials which would give people more incentive to farm them, But I digress.

This players in Gilles monopolizing the current system right now So that statement doesn't even make sense. More players would actually come join the game for the first time due to the new system, also would cause players who've already quit to return to the game due to the better system in comparison to players quitting because of the new system. Sounds like an absolute win for the game to me.

Think about how selfish that mindset is. Why try to gate pvp and the PVP players? The new system would appeal to pvp players as things wouldn't change for pve players. PvE players wouldn't be forced to join PvP guilds for a trader because the pve guilds with their traders are still out there... So why even bring that up? In addition, for the PvE players complaining about two PvP events for tickets in comparison to the countless PvE events that PvP only players have to do is absolutely one sided. PvP is already getting less than PvE yet to try to shut them out completely is beyond cruel. So no, over players wouldn't be incentivize for PVP guild traders, but they would already have a system that would work for them that's not being taken away, so everyone would be pleased here.

That PvE vs PvP speech was irrelevant unless you were having a misconception of what's being talked about here perhaps? This totally understandable to have that concept misconstrued just the information isn't being digested thoroughly.

This is a tool within the game where everyone is supposed to be able to get what they want from the market instantly if it's available, and if they have the funds, in addition to being the first person to purchase it while it's listed.

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

If you take away the thrill of me traveling to an obscure guild trying to find amazing deals before it hits the TTC page .... you have ruined trading for me.

The best response to this notion would be, would you sacrifice the world to save yourself?

It just wouldn't be wise for the game where everyone can have a great experience with more opportunities than to those who favor the extra micro manage system set in place that is severely outdated...

You are asking that the enjoyment of people playing the game be sacrificed for convenience. You suggest taking away an integral part of the game so players can do something instantly. Your idea won't help PvP and would hurt the economy all just to save a little time.

Actually I'm fine with that. Some people may enjoy the current tedious system, but yes I rather go with the option that's better for the game as a whole than to people who personally find the enjoyment of bargain hunting in a game. So yes, absolutely willing to sacrifice that to better the experience for everyone than to some people.

I've already explained how it would help pvp and debunked your theory as well as save the failing economy as it is now. It wouldn't "save a little time" it would actually save a whole lot of time.

Molydeus wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Meanwhile that is not the case on console, where trade is less centralized than on PC.

That's not the case for me either. I have more gold mats (on PC mind you) than I need so I'm quite happy to turn them into writ vouchers, after picking up cheap gold writs for whichever craft. Works for me.

I'm well aware that isn't the case on console as prices are more moderate, but harder to obtain money on console. If prices went as high as prices on PC, hardly anyone on console would be able to afford it tbh.

So on PC you would use your dreugh wax to turn in for writ vouchers to be counter productive? Basically throwing away money? (Mind you prices on average is 35k and growing on PC)

No, you're misunderstanding. Inflation isn't out of control on consoles because unlike PC players, console players don't have access to TTC. No central trading hub means prices are stable. TTC is a disaster.

Actually I'm not, You on the other hand just happen to be picking and choosing what you're reading.

I've clearly spoke on the differences between PC and console and console prices are better, yet go through the most trouble finding goods as TTC isn't that much of a help to console players, let alone the lack of add-ons. The current system doesn't allow console gamers to thrive but the suggested system would give console gamers more advantages than addon's could offer PC right now and that's a fact.

TaSheen wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

That's not the case for me either. I have more gold mats (on PC mind you) than I need so I'm quite happy to turn them into writ vouchers, after picking up cheap gold writs for whichever craft. Works for me.

So on PC you would use your dreugh wax to turn in for writ vouchers to be counter productive? Basically throwing away money? (Mind you prices on average is 35k and growing on PC)

Writ vouchers are of more use to me than golding out gear. And I have more than enough gold for whatever I want to buy (*shrug* really nothing to buy with gold). I have zero use for the guild trader system, but I still have millions in gold. And I'm really not interested in your campaign for a GAH.

That's fine, but I'll humor you... All writs but jewelery are still worth doing on console, but on PC it would be counter productive to do gold clothing writs if the writ vouchers are your end goal as you can actually sell the wax for more gold to buy more writs, then essentially earn far more writs than what you're wasting. If you like wasting money, just say that...

"I've already explained how it would help pvp and debunked your theory "

no you offered an opinion with nothing that backs that opinion. To be fair I am doing the same but I don't see why a player would put something in a guild trader that might be gone in an hour. I also do not see why a player that does not like PvP would join a PvP guild to protect a trader in a keep. That makes zero sense when you could just join a free trade guild.

I also strongly doubt a PvP player would want to babysit a keep just for the trader. To keep from losing Emperor sure they might sit a while knowing a fight is coming. Guarding a trader not going to happen.

Going from my experience PvP'rs that want to trade are also in a trading guild. I know many people in my PvP guild ended up in my trade guild. We get five guild slots for a reason.

And it would without a doubt make it easier for players to monopolize certain items. Experience from other games confirms that to be true.