I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

Conduct an experiment for yourself, start asking random players in the world if they actually participate and post within the forums. I think you'll be highly surprised...

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of active players contribute to the forums (though it is probable that the people who contribute are mainly active players). We all know that most players don't contribute to the forum, and many might not even be aware of its existence.

However, to then assert that the forums are controlled by a few super-powerful guilds, who organize mass commenting/voting behind the scenes for their own devious purposes, is reminiscent of Q-Anon levels of paranoia.

Also, it is an extremely unpleasant slur to cast about, because there is no defence. How can I (or you) prove that my thoughts are my own, not just the words provided to me by some string pulling guild master?

We have to take all words in good faith, otherwise we will never get anywhere. But I would say that wouldn't I, because I've been told to by my guild master...

That's not the point that's being made here. For example, a lot of people in this thread disagree with this forum, and plenty of them made a point that we should stop trying because it's never going to change and that the players don't want that... So the point that was being made is the player voice is in the forums, but the actual player base aren't in the forums and the average player I personally meet on a regular basis agree with this forum topic yet they're not on the forums to even post a response.

It has long been noticed that the players in the forms are often like monitoring individuals where there's little diversity in the forms as you can see in this forum post topic. However I'm glad that you agree that most players don't participate in the forums.

Now I'm not personally saying that all these players are coming from one-two guilds however I'm not saying that it's not a possibility but that was never my standpoint as if that was someone else's statement.

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

Your personal evidence in assessing the views of the majority of players are equally unreliable - you yourself have selected who to ask, introducing inevitable selection bias however unconscious (see, I too can cast aspersions that have no defence).

I doubt that you have even asked that many, and I doubt that most players would even bother replying as you presented your page long view of the status quo, the issues you perceive with it, the modifications you propose, and the rationale behind them.

But maybe you shorten that to the real reason for this post: "Would you prefer to pay less for the items you want and not have to shop around for them?".

Because most players really aren't interested in the economics of the game, however much they are affected by them.

That's your personal opinion, doesn't make it a fact though but I digress.

Actually my real reason is what I've been saying, "would you rather go to a place and have everything listed in that one place, or would you rather check 100s of different locations to check for products with countless inconsistencies?" Don't go putting words in my mouth just accepted for what it is.

Most players are interested in the economics of the game They just don't come voice it in the forums. Most players just have extremely short attention spans. It's actually crazy to me how you saw various people comment in this forum post that the current system is so frustrating that they have taken a break from the game whether it was quiting and coming back or just putting it down for a while, yet you just dismiss that saying that it doesn't happen. That is extremely ludicrous. Perhaps you're just being extremely biased because you don't want to see the system you love change to better the common player.

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

Conduct an experiment for yourself, start asking random players in the world if they actually participate and post within the forums. I think you'll be highly surprised...

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of active players contribute to the forums (though it is probable that the people who contribute are mainly active players). We all know that most players don't contribute to the forum, and many might not even be aware of its existence.

However, to then assert that the forums are controlled by a few super-powerful guilds, who organize mass commenting/voting behind the scenes for their own devious purposes, is reminiscent of Q-Anon levels of paranoia.

Also, it is an extremely unpleasant slur to cast about, because there is no defence. How can I (or you) prove that my thoughts are my own, not just the words provided to me by some string pulling guild master?

We have to take all words in good faith, otherwise we will never get anywhere. But I would say that wouldn't I, because I've been told to by my guild master...

That's not the point that's being made here. For example, a lot of people in this thread disagree with this forum, and plenty of them made a point that we should stop trying because it's never going to change and that the players don't want that... So the point that was being made is the player voice is in the forums, but the actual player base aren't in the forums and the average player I personally meet on a regular basis agree with this forum topic yet they're not on the forums to even post a response.

It has long been noticed that the players in the forms are often like monitoring individuals where there's little diversity in the forms as you can see in this forum post topic. However I'm glad that you agree that most players don't participate in the forums.

Now I'm not personally saying that all these players are coming from one-two guilds however I'm not saying that it's not a possibility but that was never my standpoint as if that was someone else's statement.

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

Your personal evidence in assessing the views of the majority of players are equally unreliable - you yourself have selected who to ask, introducing inevitable selection bias however unconscious (see, I too can cast aspersions that have no defence).

I doubt that you have even asked that many, and I doubt that most players would even bother replying as you presented your page long view of the status quo, the issues you perceive with it, the modifications you propose, and the rationale behind them.

But maybe you shorten that to the real reason for this post: "Would you prefer to pay less for the items you want and not have to shop around for them?".

Because most players really aren't interested in the economics of the game, however much they are affected by them.

That's your personal opinion, doesn't make it a fact though but I digress.

Actually my real reason is what I've been saying, "would you rather go to a place and have everything listed in that one place, or would you rather check 100s of different locations to check for products with countless inconsistencies?" Don't go putting words in my mouth just accepted for what it is.

Most players are interested in the economics of the game They just don't come voice it in the forums. Most players just have extremely short attention spans. It's actually crazy to me how you saw various people comment in this forum post that the current system is so frustrating that they have taken a break from the game whether it was quiting and coming back or just putting it down for a while, yet you just dismiss that saying that it doesn't happen. That is extremely ludicrous. Perhaps you're just being extremely biased because you don't want to see the system you love change to better the common player.

By better you mean price rare items out of reach of the common player and price common items so low they have no chance to ever afford those rare items?
Because that is what you are asking for.

That's your personal assumption, not mine, not even close to what the results would be either. Rare items are already often out of reachbdor the common player as they don't even find those items. The common player isn't on PC to benefit outside sources from the game like addon's or TTC. In fact the average player on console doesn't even know TTC exists, so please stop doing that.

I understand that you don't like the suggested changes as it changes a factor that you find fun for yourself and many others may agree with you, but you gotta understand that the common player doesn't benefit, only you few do...

Players just gotta stop being greedy and think of the common player more and make the game more appealing to the common player. That's the fact of it all...

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

Conduct an experiment for yourself, start asking random players in the world if they actually participate and post within the forums. I think you'll be highly surprised...

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of active players contribute to the forums (though it is probable that the people who contribute are mainly active players). We all know that most players don't contribute to the forum, and many might not even be aware of its existence.

However, to then assert that the forums are controlled by a few super-powerful guilds, who organize mass commenting/voting behind the scenes for their own devious purposes, is reminiscent of Q-Anon levels of paranoia.

Also, it is an extremely unpleasant slur to cast about, because there is no defence. How can I (or you) prove that my thoughts are my own, not just the words provided to me by some string pulling guild master?

We have to take all words in good faith, otherwise we will never get anywhere. But I would say that wouldn't I, because I've been told to by my guild master...

That's not the point that's being made here. For example, a lot of people in this thread disagree with this forum, and plenty of them made a point that we should stop trying because it's never going to change and that the players don't want that... So the point that was being made is the player voice is in the forums, but the actual player base aren't in the forums and the average player I personally meet on a regular basis agree with this forum topic yet they're not on the forums to even post a response.

It has long been noticed that the players in the forms are often like monitoring individuals where there's little diversity in the forms as you can see in this forum post topic. However I'm glad that you agree that most players don't participate in the forums.

Now I'm not personally saying that all these players are coming from one-two guilds however I'm not saying that it's not a possibility but that was never my standpoint as if that was someone else's statement.

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

Your personal evidence in assessing the views of the majority of players are equally unreliable - you yourself have selected who to ask, introducing inevitable selection bias however unconscious (see, I too can cast aspersions that have no defence).

I doubt that you have even asked that many, and I doubt that most players would even bother replying as you presented your page long view of the status quo, the issues you perceive with it, the modifications you propose, and the rationale behind them.

But maybe you shorten that to the real reason for this post: "Would you prefer to pay less for the items you want and not have to shop around for them?".

Because most players really aren't interested in the economics of the game, however much they are affected by them.

That's your personal opinion, doesn't make it a fact though but I digress.

Actually my real reason is what I've been saying, "would you rather go to a place and have everything listed in that one place, or would you rather check 100s of different locations to check for products with countless inconsistencies?" Don't go putting words in my mouth just accepted for what it is.

Most players are interested in the economics of the game They just don't come voice it in the forums. Most players just have extremely short attention spans. It's actually crazy to me how you saw various people comment in this forum post that the current system is so frustrating that they have taken a break from the game whether it was quiting and coming back or just putting it down for a while, yet you just dismiss that saying that it doesn't happen. That is extremely ludicrous. Perhaps you're just being extremely biased because you don't want to see the system you love change to better the common player.

By better you mean price rare items out of reach of the common player and price common items so low they have no chance to ever afford those rare items?
Because that is what you are asking for.

That's your personal assumption, not mine, not even close to what the results would be either. Rare items are already often out of reachbdor the common player as they don't even find those items. The common player isn't on PC to benefit outside sources from the game like addon's or TTC. In fact the average player on console doesn't even know TTC exists, so please stop doing that.

I understand that you don't like the suggested changes as it changes a factor that you find fun for yourself and many others may agree with you, but you gotta understand that the common player doesn't benefit, only you few do...

Players just gotta stop being greedy and think of the common player more and make the game more appealing to the common player. That's the fact of it all...

TTC isn't the benefit many are trying to claim. It isn't a live representation of what is available. If you depend on TTC for your bargains and really rare items you probably missed it.
Rare items are not meant to be gained quickly. They are rare and a bit exclusive by design. It is good for the long term health of the game to have items that take a good long time to obtain.
TTC has nothing to do with what will happen if a central system is implemented. As it is now to corner the market on rare items a player or group of players would need to monitor over 200 trading locations. With your suggestion they would need to monitor only one. That will cause prices of rare items to increase. You can look at forums to other games and see players complain about rare items being hoarded to inflate prices. It would be much worse if ESO were to switch over because many players have the gold to immediately take advantage. Some would do it just because they can.

I don't participate in the market like some of my friends do. I enjoy other things in the game much more. Some of my friends though do treat the economy as end game. They would leave the game if this change was made and I would miss playing with them.
I am thinking of the common player. I am thinking of every player. The new and casual players will find it tougher to make gold. The players that farm for items to sell will have less incentive to do so if what you suggest will happen is true. That means lower supply eventually driving up price. If I am right players sitting on mountains of gold (my fifty million is almost nothing compared to some) will drive up prices of rare items by cornering the market. Either way rare items will be harder to purchase for those new and casual players.
The market as is allows every player who wishes to the ability to participate. Trade guilds with no fees are always looking for new members. Some have no requirements at all other than log in at least once every two weeks or something like that. Players who want to spend more time gathering items can benefit for their efforts. Players that want to flip items for profits have that ability. The current system works for all players.
Where the current system could use some help is with buyers. Some have suggested changes to the current system that would help buyers with their search. All that is needed is a few minor changes. You can't wreck the game for players offering up the goods for sale in an effort to make the market effortless for the buyers. That isn't good for the economy and isn't good for the long term health of the game.
Players get to decide for themselves to take the time to farm an item or search for it on traders. When I needed my last recipe to complete knowing every recipe in the game I had members from three guilds look for it whenever they visited a trader. It was I think a level 35 recipe so not worth anything. That meant for the most part it wasn't worth listing. Was also only likely to drop for a very short period of time for each character before the character leveled past the recipe dropping. Eventually someone found it for me and we celebrated. The time it took to find the recipe made it all that much better when it was finally found.
Point being not everything is going to happen right away and that is good for the game. Not everything needs to be obtainable right away. That is why there is limits on Transmute Stones, some gear is bound or can only be traded to group members and a variety of other mechanics in the game that could create a grind if you let it. All those things are good for the long term health of the game.
Your suggestion would cause some people to quit the game. It would hurt the economy. It would open up the economy to monopolies. Your suggestion would be detrimental to the long term health of the game. It would allow a buyer to instantly see an item listed for sale but if that item is rare it will cost more.

King_*** wrote: »

I strongly disagree, I've yet to encounter an MMORPG that utilizes the features I'm suggesting causes an inflation of prices to go up, or even had player complaints. I've seen these systems work flawlessly already.

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Players already quit the game due to the current economy trade system yet you don't care about them. 🤷🏾 So what's the difference in the argument?

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you... The fact that you don't see the issue that you had to ask three of your friends to find one recipe in guild traders that you most likely would have found a whole lot sooner in one stop and go is a huge issue. I don't even understand how you're not personally frustrated with that.

The system should allow the players to find all the listed items in one place, stop in, grab what you want, leave back out, and continue your grind of what you were doing. The game should have never let the player spend hours on end searching for 1 item that's most likely listed somewhere out there. That in itself is failing the player base...

From experience, the proposed system would salvage the already broken economy...

I'm thinking people who left the game because of the economy were leaning that way already. Maybe I'm wrong. There is a difference in players leaving a game because of something that existed in the game before they started and driving players away with a change.
It wasn't three friends it was three guilds. Of course not everyone participated but I'm guessing close to fifty at some time or another looked. There were several of us all wanting to complete learning all recipes so we kept an eye out for what the others might need to complete their list. It was fun and we all celebrated when we found a recipe for someone. We didn't spend hours looking. If we were at a trader anyway we would look for the recipe while there.
It wasn't a grind because it was something we wanted not something we needed. I never used most the recipes I learned. I just wanted one character to know them all. And no not everything should be instantly available be it by harvesting or by purchasing. That isn't good for the game.
The economy isn't broken. It is healthy. It is fluid. The prices vary with supply and demand. You can find everything you need and most of what you want and usually at prices that make sense. You want convenience. It isn't about fixing the economy it is about instant purchasing. Your proposal would hurt the economy whether your view or my view is the correct one on how this would affect prices.

King_*** wrote: »

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Meanwhile that is not the case on console, where trade is less centralized than on PC.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Meanwhile that is not the case on console, where trade is less centralized than on PC.

That's not the case for me either. I have more gold mats (on PC mind you) than I need so I'm quite happy to turn them into writ vouchers, after picking up cheap gold writs for whichever craft. Works for me.

TaSheen wrote: »

Y'know, I don't use TTC any more because it's not really reliable. If I can't find something I think I want or need in Vivec, I "might" try Windhelm. And if whatever it is isn't there *shrug*. Considering how casual a player I am, this economy works just fine for me.

Those who don't like it probably need to consider whether this is the game they really want to invest their gaming time into.

You guys gotta stop that way of thinking... Just because you're find with how something's work in the game doesn't mean you should suggest that another player should quit the game because they find the lack of features annoying. These players still enjoy other parts of the game, it's just a core aspect of the game has a flaw. These types of replies are super ignorant to say the least...

A perceived flaw as it is your opinion (which is fine as every person is entitled to one) however it is just as ignorant to dismiss any opinion that doesn't conform to yours

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Meanwhile that is not the case on console, where trade is less centralized than on PC.

That's not the case for me either. I have more gold mats (on PC mind you) than I need so I'm quite happy to turn them into writ vouchers, after picking up cheap gold writs for whichever craft. Works for me.

I'm well aware that isn't the case on console as prices are more moderate, but harder to obtain money on console. If prices went as high as prices on PC, hardly anyone on console would be able to afford it tbh.

So on PC you would use your dreugh wax to turn in for writ vouchers to be counter productive? Basically throwing away money? (Mind you prices on average is 35k and growing on PC)

By the way for the curious, here's a trader in Mournhold that has Dreugh Wax. It's not my guild's trader. I just picked a random trader in Deshaan.

greenmachine86 wrote: »

A perceived flaw as it is your opinion (which is fine as every person is entitled to one) however it is just as ignorant to dismiss any opinion that doesn't conform to yours

I actually acknowledged that theirs two sides of the argument which means a change needs to happen whether it's my idea or another, but at the end of the day, it can't be the current.

King_*** wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

By the way for the curious, here's a trader in Mournhold that has Dreugh Wax. It's not my guild's trader. I just picked a random trader in Deshaan.

On console... I did specific PC when I spoke on that with the writ vouchers.

Sure. I didn't state otherwise. I posted it so people could see it to satisfy their curiosity about console prices (since there is nothing like TTC to compare) and to help illustrate my own point.

King_*** wrote: »

]
I actually acknowledged that theirs two sides of the argument which means a change needs to happen whether it's my idea or another, but at the end of the day, it can't be the current.

And again that is your opinion. Just because yours differs means that the system has to change.

King_*** wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

As for inflation we already have that, the players cause that in all honesty... Inflation on PC is so bad clothing writs of gold quality has become worthless as they're not worth doing due to dreugh wax being so expensive. Gold clothing writs are now considered the same as jewelry writs, absolutely worthless.

Meanwhile that is not the case on console, where trade is less centralized than on PC.

That's not the case for me either. I have more gold mats (on PC mind you) than I need so I'm quite happy to turn them into writ vouchers, after picking up cheap gold writs for whichever craft. Works for me.

I'm well aware that isn't the case on console as prices are more moderate, but harder to obtain money on console. If prices went as high as prices on PC, hardly anyone on console would be able to afford it tbh.

So on PC you would use your dreugh wax to turn in for writ vouchers to be counter productive? Basically throwing away money? (Mind you prices on average is 35k and growing on PC)

This is why you can't compare the three economies. Gold is much easier to come by on PC. The app Writ Master makes doing writs on multiple characters a breeze. That means more gold and more materials in less time. Inflation would be a problem if prices were running away beyond what new players can keep up with. That isn't the case. The price of goods easily falls into the parameters of what the market can handle.
Again this really isn't about the economy. It is about finding items instantly.