King_*** wrote: »

...
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?

That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?

There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?

So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...

Please read to the end, I try to be as comprehensive as possible (and nice):

You assume that the increase of the low level trader spots levels out the loss from the higher ones. But remember...
The human brain has the tendency to trick you. The brain seeks to level out every dissonance and imbalance, in order to preserve its sanity. Thats why you instinctively assume that the overall balance doesn't shift, and that there is a somehow magical force that ups the lower end, because the upper end gets lowered.

However, logic and knowledge teach us that there is no reason to assume this theory is going to become true.

Logic first: The factor/influence that raises the bids for any guild over the least visited guild trader spot if all is local advantage. Prime Real Estate, uf you will. That much we know.
There is really no other influence that has been identified, ever (please propose something, if you have more insight).
If you take that comparative difference of locality away, the entire system has to revert to the lowest state possible, that is stable. That is the only possible conclusion, if there are no other factors, that have an effect on the system.
And this will be the cost of the least wanted trader spot.

Knowledge now: What you maybe unaware of, is that most upper end traders have not just several trade guilds, but also several accounts. That is a pressured bubble of sorts, where the trade at the upper end is concentrated to significantly less individuals than there are guild membership spots on these trade guilds. As a result, when you take away the need to have multiple accounts and memberships in guilds (and sales will be so quick and unprofitable, that for most "flippers" it is unreasonable to keep more than 30 slots for sales, because they will empty too quickly), the bubble will burst. If the top traders do not outright leave, because they are too pi..., äh, very disappointed, they will definitely dial back their involvement and activity and only use the normal 30 slots per membership. Several trade guilds will implode with this developement, mostly because the management of these guilds will simply worsen, don't care or outright leave. This is what I have discussed on one of my trade guilds discords, with the leadership mainly. And they agreed. "What do ones efforts matter, if the outcome is the same" sums up their reaction nicely.
They would not invest time and RL money, as they do now.

Making all trader spots equal will hence creates a situation where a lot less guilds will compete for the fixed amount of trader spots, compared to the current situation. And as a result lowering the competition in the bidding process and possibly resulting in even lower trader spot prices than right now at the lower end.

Changing a factor/variable that has such fundamental influance on so many parts of the game, it is impossible to predict what will happen without complete information and strict logic. Even so, a lot of high end trader GMs have already expressed previously (in other similar threads over the last years) what they would do: leave.

It's not like its bad thing to try and make something better for everyone. And this discussion has to be made. There are bad sides of the guild trader system, right now. No doubt.
But ignoring people with more knowledge giving valid couterarguments in a logic way, is, strictly speaking, ignorant.
I really wish this thread and similar threads around the topic of trading in general could be more productive and more respectful on all sides of the spectrum. Discussions should always be open minded.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Folks, it feels like a reminder that "open-mindedness" and willingness to discuss" doesn't actually mean "is going to agree with me in the end" might be good for both sides of this yay/nay argument to keep in mind.

This is one of those topics where everyone's got their own opinion that probably won't change, in large part because no one's bringing up new ideas that haven't been talked about in countless other threads on the topic, me included.

I don't think anyone's been nonsensical and from what I see, we've been able to talk our way through the tangles of misunderstanding. We haven't agreed with each other, but at least we understand better.

So that doesn't mean this is a pointless discussion. It just means that a polite "agree to disagree" is more in order than throwing insults, please.

Could not possibly be any more correct.

Sometimes we can't go straight to the solution so talking things over is the first step and as I've experienced in many many situations seems to be hardest thing for people to do. There are reasons for this of course but I would wager we haven't really solved anything if we can't first be able to communicate effectively. Not being able to communicate is just as bad as the thing we're trying to solve and everyone's not always going to agree.

@Goldie

I did not write this. I wrote the quote this was responding to. Please fix.

“ This is literally happening already. Big guilds have a 'Big Guild II' or 'Big Guild 3' and Buy up the spots where smaller Guilds could and usually do try to get a start. The trading system in this game is detrimental to the game itself. Im sure a lot of players have left the game due to the hassle and BS required just to sell items and mats to other players...“

Is not me.

@Goldie

Please fix the quote above, you attributed it to me in error.

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Lol this game's gameplay and story makes the game appealing, each game has their pros and cons but this games economy should change and it would make the game top tier. So it's not about the whether or not you feel the game is for me or not, the game can be improved. Just like any other update in this game.

The problem is that you make all these claims and write nothing down to support them.

The economy should be this...
The game should do that...
The players want this...
My friends want that...

Why? Why should it?
Why should ESO be like WoW or FFXIV? Why? Why shouldn't it be ESO? It worked so far. Why is it suddenly failing?
Or have you been playing since launch and just now decided to share your insights?

Who are these players and what gives you the authority to speak for "silent majorities"? Where is the proof for that? Is there a poll you like to put foreward? From other sources maybe, like Reddit for example.

My own trading guild guild master spoke out against your opinions here and he speaks for over 2000 members of our community discord. Do you have something similar to put forward?

That is all we get from you. Opinions. No single reasoning. Proof. Context even. Nothing. No deep dive.

Please, please, please for the sake of discussion culture and your own opinions, please make an effort and explain yourself with arguments.

Edit: Typos

I replied to someone else answering all that quite recently actually, check it out. Also I've been provided proof we it's already a thing that works flawlessly in the games that I listed...

Find and dandy. But preferring a different system to the one we have is not a reason for any change. It is clear by the many transactions that occur every day that the current system works.

It doesn't work well

I be already understood this was your opinion and we are all entitled to form such an opinion if we want to.

As someone who has played MMORPGS with a central trading system I am glad welcome the system we have here and that my opinion which has just as much value as yours.

King_*** wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Lol this game's gameplay and story makes the game appealing, each game has their pros and cons but this games economy should change and it would make the game top tier. So it's not about the whether or not you feel the game is for me or not, the game can be improved. Just like any other update in this game.

The problem is that you make all these claims and write nothing down to support them.

The economy should be this...
The game should do that...
The players want this...
My friends want that...

Why? Why should it?
Why should ESO be like WoW or FFXIV? Why? Why shouldn't it be ESO? It worked so far. Why is it suddenly failing?
Or have you been playing since launch and just now decided to share your insights?

Who are these players and what gives you the authority to speak for "silent majorities"? Where is the proof for that? Is there a poll you like to put foreward? From other sources maybe, like Reddit for example.

My own trading guild guild master spoke out against your opinions here and he speaks for over 2000 members of our community discord. Do you have something similar to put forward?

That is all we get from you. Opinions. No single reasoning. Proof. Context even. Nothing. No deep dive.

Please, please, please for the sake of discussion culture and your own opinions, please make an effort and explain yourself with arguments.

Edit: Typos

I replied to someone else answering all that quite recently actually, check it out. Also I've been provided proof we it's already a thing that works flawlessly in the games that I listed...

Find and dandy. But preferring a different system to the one we have is not a reason for any change. It is clear by the many transactions that occur every day that the current system works.

It doesn't work well, it just runs because it has too, bit it doesn't mean it works well... For example we had the same servers since launch... The old servers didn't work well, but it ran because it had too... Now we have better servers and that was a change that needed to happen. Just because a change hasn't happened since the game launched doesn't mean that any issue doesn't exist... As a game gets older, new improvements are added, new additions are added, fundamental changes happen, and this is easily the same exact concept that would great improve the game such as the new servers will.

It actually works extremely well. The market is vibrant. Prices fluctuate according to supply and demand. Players can get everything they need usually at a price easily afforded and they can get most of what they want. The current system has a level for all players beginning to vet. The more you participate the better the results just like many other aspects of the game. Inflation is kept in check and there is no possibility of a monopoly on rare items.
There could be some minor tweaks to make it even better but what we have works really well.

King_*** wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

Well said, I've been saying that several times myself... The players in the forums don't match the actual players in the game when speaking on the players voice. The average player just isn't on the forums.

Which please keep in mind also applies to this discussion as well.

Imho the only important needed change for ESO's economy is some massive gold sink. The inflation has become absurdly out of control, and apart from guild trader fees there's no return of gold back to the game.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

Well first of all "the community as a whole" is not going to agree as a whole. Judging by some of the back and forth on these forums and from what I've seen in zone chat even, its common for folks not to agree, even over simple things. lol

Secondly, generally speaking the truth points to itself, let Guilds or individuals post whatever they like. Ultimately the burden of proof for each topic is on the one who started it as is the responsibility for what they posted. That said, you can usually very quickly tell who has a valid concern and who has an agenda............

Third, there's nothing stopping other players from coming on there to post their thoughts. So well, me for example, I've been with ESO since 2014 and my purpose here is to share my experiences and be a part of the solution and nothing more than that. There's just no reason why someone else can't do the same, as I said before. And that is on them not me for choosing to participate whereas it wouldn't be appropriate either from the point of view as a writer or from the task of trying to get feedback from people forced to login here from time to time.

Those of us who choose to come here at any time, is all there will be and that resource should be treated with patience and respect to those involved.

The problem with the ESO forums is that you first have to apply for permission to join them (which step in itself is actually quite hard to work out), and then wait for it.

Most players, unless they're already very, very dedicated, just won't do that (the only reason I did was because these fora have the best housing discussions). And that will skew which viewpoints are represented. It's why, for all its vitriol, reddit tends to provide much more varied discussion on most topics from VASTLY more players (a thread i did there on traders had engagement of 30,000 people coming at it from all sorts of different viewpoints -- I seriously doubt that would ever happen here).

The forums would be much more valuable if they were easier to join and so had a better cross section of players, although presumably there are moderation reasons why ZOS do not do that.

Northwold wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

Well first of all "the community as a whole" is not going to agree as a whole. Judging by some of the back and forth on these forums and from what I've seen in zone chat even, its common for folks not to agree, even over simple things. lol

Secondly, generally speaking the truth points to itself, let Guilds or individuals post whatever they like. Ultimately the burden of proof for each topic is on the one who started it as is the responsibility for what they posted. That said, you can usually very quickly tell who has a valid concern and who has an agenda............

Third, there's nothing stopping other players from coming on there to post their thoughts. So well, me for example, I've been with ESO since 2014 and my purpose here is to share my experiences and be a part of the solution and nothing more than that. There's just no reason why someone else can't do the same, as I said before. And that is on them not me for choosing to participate whereas it wouldn't be appropriate either from the point of view as a writer or from the task of trying to get feedback from people forced to login here from time to time.

Those of us who choose to come here at any time, is all there will be and that resource should be treated with patience and respect to those involved.

The problem with the ESO forums is that you first have to apply for permission to join them (which step in itself is actually quite hard to work out), and then wait for it.

Most players, unless they're already very, very dedicated, just won't do that (the only reason I did was because these fora have the best housing discussions). And that will skew which viewpoints are represented. It's why, for all its vitriol, reddit tends to provide much more varied discussion on most topics from VASTLY more players (a thread i did there on traders had engagement of 30,000 people coming at it from all sorts of different viewpoints -- I seriously doubt that would ever happen here).

The forums would be much more valuable if they were easier to join and so had a better cross section of players, although presumably there are moderation reasons why ZOS do not do that.

I quite agree as far as making the forums easier to participate in. I only joined the forums to make a bug report after a couple years of playing. I stayed because I enjoy discussing ESO and these are the official forums for that.

themaddaedra wrote: »

Imho the only important needed change for ESO's economy is some massive gold sink. The inflation has become absurdly out of control, and apart from guild trader fees there's no return of gold back to the game.

I don't think ESO needs another massive gold sink tbh. It's honestly already taking longer to sell items these days as the existing gold sinks are moreso tuned to PC needs.

Goldie wrote: »

The big issue with posts like this one - which im sure OP has played for quite a while, is that players and folks here on the forums do NOT represent the opinion of the community as a whole. The discussions can be and ARE directed and mis-directed by groups of players who share the same guilds or discords, and come onto threads like this to overwhelm actual objective discussion.

That has been an issue for the game itself as well. ZOS listens to these people on the forums, as if they represent the community, and what the "community" wants - and let this crap influence changes to the game! (You can see how well received most of these changes are by the diminishing active player numbers).

MOST players arent even on the forums, and contribute nothing to the conversations that can easily be overrun by 500-1000 players all from 1 or 2 guilds that decide they need to join the forums to inject their opinions, which then makes it appears like a majority opinion, when realistically, the overall consensus is drastically different.

If it were true that a small number of guilds overwhelmed the forums to derail actual objective discussions, then the same could be said with the creation of threads.

There is no proof that a small number of guilds derail the forums because no such thing is happening.

King_*** wrote: »

I believe what we're seeing in this form is a tide that's leading to one side that doesn't represent the player base as a whole.

It's worth pointing out that ZOS appear very much aware of that and many changes they make to the game run directly contrary to the received view here but in alignment with what is discussed about the game on social media more broadly.

Most game developers recognise, I think, that their own forums are never going to compete with the likes of Twitter, Reddit, et al, in terms of giving a representative snapshot of the player base because by definition you are no longer representative if you seek to join a developer forum. The hoops to sign up here are, however, more stringent than for other developers.

On the topic at hand -- traders and listings -- it is one of the most polarising.