CP5 wrote: »

The majority of people here who want something don't want it to be forced onto people who enjoy it as it is now, and of those who say 'just change the base experience entirely,' many of those are simply doing it out of frustration at constantly being told off for wanting an option.

I like you.

MrLachance wrote: »

Even if its not optional. people wich doent give questing areas any value shouldnt comment here.

Questing isn't the only thing in overland, so I absolutely should comment even if I don't quest bc if ESO went back to forced vet overland it will absolutely affect me every time I go into overland to do events, surveys, just explore, or farm mats, or speed power level my umpteenth alt. A hard no to doing that with oneshot or vet mobs on me. It's not that I can't kill them, it's that I don't want to when I just want to do the aforementioned.

Difficult content has its place. If I want difficult content, I go do my fav thing: vet trials which are optional and instanced

Now, if this thread is about making only quests vet mode again with bosses that were harder than dungeon bosses then sure, I won't comment bc quests aren't my thing and if I ever have to do it, I won't have any issues. But the suggestion here is to increase difficulty with everything overland, and to that I say make it optional for those who want it.

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We haven't all agreed. I find it completely unfair to customize the base game to one particular playstyle.

You are arguing against yourself here

The base game as it stands is customized for only one particular playstyle - easy.

The whole point of this thread is that people want the game customised for more than one playstyle which is the very definition of fair!

This crusade you are on is tying your argument in knots.

Just allow people an option

Easy isn't a playstyle. Casual, veteran end game, PvP and Roleplay are some examples of playstyles.

Easy is an opinion. What some find easy others find difficult. Overland isn't customized for any particular group but rather so that it can be accomplished by everyone. Low levels and those new to ESO may find it difficult, while those who have developed their characters and are experienced may find it easy, but everyone is capable of completing the quests and the story.

Veteran overland, on the other hand, would be customized specifically for veteran end game players. That is not fair.

"Easy is an option" available for every piece of pve content in the entirety of the game where difficulty is concerned except for the world. Every other piece of pve content in the game that has combat difficulty as a variable that can offers this choice, so it can be accomplished by and more accommodating to more players, which is a good thing. Adding a solo version of dungeons would be a good thing since it would open content others would likely never touch to them, so they can enjoy it, and the more people enjoying a more of the game would be better.

How is it unfair to expect a standard expressed everywhere else in the game to be implemented into the world of tamriel so that players who find beginner-friendly difficulty mind-numbingly dull can actually enjoy the world the Elder Scrolls takes place in, and was likely the thing that brought many of them here in the first place?

Many players do not find overland "mind-numbingly dull".

Overland is different from instanced content such as dungeons and trials and arenas because these were created specifically to provide a challenge for those who seek that. Overland wasn't. It was created for questing and leveling and harvesting resources and to tell the story. It was not created as a challenge, yet it does have challenges in the form of World Bosses and Harrowstorms, so there is something for everyone. But every single aspect does not need to be customized to one particular group.

Edited to clarify.

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We haven't all agreed. I find it completely unfair to customize the base game to one particular playstyle.

You are arguing against yourself here

The base game as it stands is customized for only one particular playstyle - easy.

The whole point of this thread is that people want the game customised for more than one playstyle which is the very definition of fair!

This crusade you are on is tying your argument in knots.

Just allow people an option

Easy isn't a playstyle. Casual, veteran end game, PvP and Roleplay are some examples of playstyles.

Easy is an opinion. What some find easy others find difficult. Overland isn't customized for any particular group but rather so that it can be accomplished by everyone. Low levels and those new to ESO may find it difficult, while those who have developed their characters and are experienced may find it easy, but everyone is capable of completing the quests and the story.

Veteran overland, on the other hand, would be customized specifically for veteran end game players. That is not fair.

"Easy is an option" available for every piece of pve content in the entirety of the game where difficulty is concerned except for the world. Every other piece of pve content in the game that has combat difficulty as a variable that can offers this choice, so it can be accomplished by and more accommodating to more players, which is a good thing. Adding a solo version of dungeons would be a good thing since it would open content others would likely never touch to them, so they can enjoy it, and the more people enjoying a more of the game would be better.

How is it unfair to expect a standard expressed everywhere else in the game to be implemented into the world of tamriel so that players who find beginner-friendly difficulty mind-numbingly dull can actually enjoy the world the Elder Scrolls takes place in, and was likely the thing that brought many of them here in the first place?

Overland isn't "mind-numbingly dull". That is an opinion, not a fact, and not one that everyone agrees on.

Overland is different from instanced content such as dungeons and trials and arenas because these were created specifically to provide a challenge for those who seek that. Overland wasn't. It was created for questing and leveling and harvesting resources and to tell the story. It was not created as a challenge for players who are bored with the other difficult content.

Overland is overland, just like dungeons are dungeons, the number of people participating in a single instance of the activity doesn't mean it can't offer choice. If dungeons and trials were created 'specifically to provide a challenge' should they never be accommodating to those who just want to experience the locations and their stories? Does having fewer options and restricting people from participating in the content make it better?

Because, for people that aren't you, it can be hard to take a story seriously when you know an end of the world threat could be resolved with little effort, that the cries for help from the people of tamriel are little more than them trying to trick some adventurer into doing their chores, that aside from the visuals there is no meaningful difference between where you go or who you fight or what places you're saving. Without any meaningful engagement from players who are accustomed to more, so much of the content is lackluster at best, and a forgetful tedious task at worse.

It is great you and others enjoy things as is, it is understandable that you don't get how others could enjoy things differently than you, but acting as if it is unfair to ask for a standard that is expressed everywhere else in the game, so that players who enjoy ESO's gameplay and are proficient with it can actually enjoy the world of tamriel, and instead telling them 'you have your corner, the entire rest of the world isn't for you when you get tired of being in it,' is disappointing.

There are many reasons why the trial guild I'm in went from incredibly active to dead, and part of that was that people logged in only to raid. If a group took a break they would leave, ZOS would change things significantly, and the returning player would simply decide there was too much to do to catch back up, and they would never return. The only solo content in the game of a level that engages them would be the 2 arenas, but we've run those a million times for gear. Think living just there is fun? Think that we wouldn't enjoy exploring zones worth of content, with threats actually deserving of experienced adventurers?

As it stands, doing any serious quest in the world feels like being a grown adult participating in an elementary school stage play, having to wait for the kids in their handcrafted costumes acting overly dramatic, barely remembering their lines, and sitting back as much as possible because to do anything more would be excessive. It robs the ability to enjoy the content from others, and I wish you would understand that is genuine.

So, experienced players that are used to more demanding gameplay and a higher level of engagement shouldn't engage with, again, the world of tamriel. Going back to my point of "Does having fewer options and restricting people from participating in the content make it better?" Content being too easy and simplistic can be just as restrictive as it being to demanding.

It could be if there were options. Everywhere else has options. ZOS uses the tech every expansion to give options. Asking for options which are available everywhere else to be expanded to this area, the largest area of the game, should not be seen as 'unfair' or unreasonable. So again, is adding more options on how content is approached to increase the number of players who engage in it good or no?

For the long term health of the game, having more activities that people can participate in would give them more reason to log back in, but since in some areas of the game this impact isn't as seen, player retention isn't as much of an immediate issue. But for anyone who wants to see ESO succeed in the long term, it should be.

Overland had been this way for almost 7 years now, since One Tamriel. If its difficulty was really a widespread problem for a lot of players the game would have failed by now.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland had been this way for almost 7 years now, since One Tamriel. If its difficulty was really a widespread problem for a lot of players the game would have failed by now.

That's an invalid re-occurring argument. We have already discussed it in this thread, but there were MANY broken concepts Pre-One Tamriel.

It is true that after One Tamriel the game did do a whole lot better; however, it has as you said been 7 years and overland has become too easy or not challenging enough for players.

I will say that scaling in this game is so bad that I've seen level 3 accounts (with CPs allocated and with crafted sets) tank max level characters (with CPs allocated and with sets) for an unhealthy amount of time.

Some players find overland too easy or not challenging enough but many are fine with it just as it is.

The fact that "level 3 accounts (with CPs allocated and with crafted sets) tank max level characters (with CPs allocated and with sets) for an unhealthy amount of time" has no relevance to players doing quests and playing through the story.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland had been this way for almost 7 years now, since One Tamriel. If its difficulty was really a widespread problem for a lot of players the game would have failed by now.

That's an invalid re-occurring argument. We have already discussed it in this thread, but there were MANY broken concepts Pre-One Tamriel.

It is true that after One Tamriel the game did do a whole lot better; however, it has as you said been 7 years and overland has become too easy or not challenging enough for players.

I will say that scaling in this game is so bad that I've seen level 3 accounts (with CPs allocated and with crafted sets) tank max level characters (with CPs allocated and with sets) for an unhealthy amount of time.

Some players find overland too easy or not challenging enough but many are fine with it just as it is.

The fact that "level 3 accounts (with CPs allocated and with crafted sets) tank max level characters (with CPs allocated and with sets) for an unhealthy amount of time" has no relevance to players doing quests and playing through the story.

That part is about scaling being absurd in this game, which can make overland easier.

Overland wasn't meant to scale with players forever. If it did it would take much longer to complete quests and activities such as farming resources would become a time consuming chore. I believe they capped scaling at level 160 which makes more sense for the activities that overland presents.

I think it is fair to give an option to vet players to customize their experience with Overland. I don't think it should come as a separate instance, for a myriad of reasons. I didn't want to start getting less unique content each year. I want to be able to group with friends and family while still enjoying the increased difficulty. I didn't want to mess up my character's achievements by playing normal when my hands hurt too much to play vet since quests aren't repeatable. As far I'm personally concerned, this last point was dropped when AWA became a thing. I think it would be unhealthy for new players in low population zones to be split from vets. Etc. Etc

But, I personally don't think it is fair to leave things as they currently exist.

You don't have to be someone who trains relentlessly for Overland to become too easy. It becomes too easy through the course of normal gameplay. Once it becomes too easy, the nature of the game world itself changes substantially. The game world that you bought into when you first started playing, the one that gave you a light challenge, is gone for practical purposes even if it didn't change on paper. I don't personally find that fair. The game becomes practically a walking sim (I enjoy these but that's besides the point) which is a different type of rpg than the action RPG gameplay you start with. I find this too, unfair.

I don't think the way the game currently exists is fair to vet players. I may differ on how to solve this problem from some of the posters here (I believe it should be through a personal difficulty slider, challenge banners, and even the occasional new challenge zone) but I do not differ on the underlying principle that the way game currently exists is unfair to vet players. I believe something needs to be done.

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it is fair to give an option to vet players to customize their experience with Overland. I don't think it should come as a separate instance, for a myriad of reasons I have stated plenty in this thread. But, I don't think it is fair to leave things as they currently exist.

You don't have to be someone who trains relentlessly for Overland to become too easy. It becomes too easy through the course of normal gameplay. Once it becomes too easy, the nature of the game world itself changes substantially. The game world that you bought into when you first started playing, the one that gave you a light challenge, is gone for practical purposes even if it didn't change on paper. I don't personally find that fair. The game becomes practically a walking sim (I enjoy these but that's besides the point) which is a different type of rpg than the action RPG gameplay you start with. I find this too, unfair.

I don't think the way the game currently exists is fair to vet players. I may differ on how to solve this problem from some of the posters here (I believe it should be through a personal difficulty slider, challenge banners, and even the occasional new challenge zone) but I do not differ on the underlying principle that the way game currently exists is unfair to vet players. I believe something needs to be done.

I disagree that overland is unfair to anyone. I'm a veteran player. I started playing in beta, took a break until One Tamriel because overland was too difficult for my taste, and have leveled 3 new characters though overland since I've been back.

I find overland easy and I like it that way. It makes me feel powerful and shows me how far I've progressed.

Not all veteran players are into challenges and not all of those who are want that level of challenge in every single thing they do.

What I find unfair is creating a whole new complete world for what I believe is a very small subset of the player population.

As far as the game world changing from the game we purchased, this was done to save a failing game and is something we agree to in the Terms of Service. It is fair.

When I use the term veteran player vs casual in this thread, I mean someone who enjoys and completes difficult content. When I use the term casual, I mean people who prefer a more relaxed gaming experience (or are simply unable to take on challenges). I am not talking about playtime. There are plenty of long time players that engage with the game in a casual way and there's nothing wrong with that. I have IRL family like that. I personally will get on weeks long stretches of game time like that.

When I say the gameplay experience changes, I don't mean literal changes. I mean the way it feels De Facto rather than the De Jure numbers changes.

I personally don't feel it is fair to consumers that the gameplay experience is so radically different that we are essentially punished for getting good at the game.

SilverBride wrote: »

Easy is an opinion. What some find easy others find difficult. Overland isn't customized for any particular group but rather so that it can be accomplished by everyone. Low levels and those new to ESO may find it difficult, while those who have developed their characters and are experienced may find it easy, but everyone is capable of completing the quests and the story.

Veteran overland, on the other hand, would be customized specifically for veteran end game players. That is not fair.

A good example of double think, suspending disbelief in the contradiction.

I don't understand how difficult content is lacking with all the veteran dungeons and trials and arenas that are in this game. As far as solo challenges, doesn't that defeat the whole concept of a challenge? If a veteran overland wasn't challenging enough to require a group then what is the point?

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand how difficult content is lacking with all the veteran dungeons and trials and arenas that are in this game. As far as solo challenges, doesn't that defeat the whole concept of a challenge? If a veteran overland wasn't challenging enough to require a group then what is the point?

It can be difficult to find groups for that content. A lot of guilds for example will run trials like once a week, at a fixed time using a roster. Which means 12/500 in that guild get to raid once a week. And if you're not able to join at that fixed time, you'll just have to find another guild because you'll just never get that opportunity. PUGs are hard to find in both quantity and quality.

Last time I tried to queue for Vet Castle Thorn, the activity finder never put me in a group. I had waited two hours. That was admittedly unusual, but I get 40 minute wait times as a DPS quite regularly.

Solo Arenas do provide a challenge, but there's only two of them. The challenge is simply different in solo challenges when compared to group stuff. I find Vet Vateshran Hallow to be harder than most vet dungeons. Rather than requiring group mates to perform various tasks, they generally push you to perform feats of skill while still mitigating lots of damage and dishing out a good deal of damage at the same time.

A good comparison is the fight from the bull in VVH vs the vent fight in Vet Unhallowed Grave. Both fights require you to quickly recognize when you need to grapple to a new platform and then do something while on that platform to avoid an amount of damage that can't simply be healed or tanked.

However, the Bull fight simply requires you to interrupt an NPC to avoid a one shot and kill some adds. This is easily accomplished by one person. The vent fight requires a healer or DPS to activate a sigil, then the tank to move the boss on top of the sigil. So, you need to work together so that the boss will extinguish the flames.

If they did go the separate vet instance route, I would very much like a vet overland to be designed like vet maelstrom or vet Vateshran. These solo arenas are fantastically challenging. The first time I beat Maelstrom, way before pale order or any that, was one of my favorite gaming moments. It took me many attempts.

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand how difficult content is lacking with all the veteran dungeons and trials and arenas that are in this game. As far as solo challenges, doesn't that defeat the whole concept of a challenge? If a veteran overland wasn't challenging enough to require a group then what is the point?

It can be difficult to find groups for that content. A lot of guilds for example will run trials like once a week, at a fixed time using a roster. Which means 12/500 in that guild get to raid once a week. And if you're not able to join at that fixed time, you'll just have to find another guild because you'll just never get that opportunity. PUGs are hard to find in both quantity and quality

If a guild's main focus is to raid then it would seem logical that they would create enough groups that most of their players were able to participate. They aren't limited to just one group of 12.

The reason many guilds usually limit it to one or two runs a week is trials take a long time and a lot of organization. You need to give people time to sign up. You need to make sure the raid leads have the time to do it. There's a limited number of players that can do vet trials at all, especially vet dlc trials. And even less of those players that can lead.

You could be potentially be in there a couple of hours and not get a clear because you're teaching people the mechanics. This is known as a prog group. The better guilds probably also have a select roster of people they take on a second trial run where you have to be qualified to join through both parse videos and certified prior clears. These may focus on trifectas or leaderboards.

I'm sure there are very elite guilds running more often. But, most of the guilds I have been in do like one or two trials a week. It's just not something you can play each session.