Rush of Agony pulls you even if you are CC immune (Bug report and balance discussion thread)

Dr_Con · December 2022

The bug report:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584299/pc-mac-patch-notes-v7-1-5-waking-flame-update-31

This says quite clearly that the effect will not work if CC immunity is active, however it is very clear that you can break free then roll dodge out of a dark convergence stun/pull and still get pulled in by Rush of Agony. I mention this specific example because it is exactly what happens in PVP.

The design, as stated, was to have it pull without causing immunity, so that an effect that applies CC immunity can go down on top of the player.

Now unless I'm missing something and the dark convergence pull/stun no longer applies CC immunity after you break free and roll out of it, then Rush of Agony is clearly not working as intended.

Balancing concerns-

Rush of Agony's effect is hardly visible for what it does- if this is a design choice it is a flawed one.
Players are able to chain rushing agony procs. If every 2 seconds you have a different person using rush of agony, you can chain pull a person or group of people to a spot and they can never leave it. Compound the known but unaddressed bug that this can occur through CC immunity and you get infinite interruptions of cast/channeled abilities, minimal impact of roll dodge, and a form of griefing.

To recap for everyone: If player = CC immune, rushing agony's pull is not supposed to work, as per the patch notes when it was implemented.

If player = not CC immune, Rushing Agony is supposed to work, and is not supposed to apply cc immunity.

It is not only jarring when you get pulled again after breaking free and rolling out of a stun, but it's not supposed to happen as per the release notes.

This issue has been present for quite some time and many have been fooled into thinking that this ability to infinitely pull players who are CC immune is in Rushing Agony's intended design.

On the balancing aspect- Not only is the visual effect minimal, but staggered rushing agony procs is an issue and needs to be addressed for balancing reasons (example, special immunity to rushing agony should occur after 1 pull, but dark convergence or chains/stuns can happen after a rushing agony pull to apply CC immunity), but the fact that a CC immune person can be pulled by rushing agony is the exact opposite of what was stated when it was released and the set needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

virtus753 · December 2022

Have you tested this in a controlled environment? In Cyrodiil I find that cc immunity seems to be more a suggestion than a rule in general, for a variety of sets and skills. I wonder if this particular set respects cc immunity when the server has time to process everything correctly - in which case it would be another example of ZOS designing for an environment in which everything works as intended rather than the environment in which we actually play.

On the other hand, this set could just be failing to work as intended with respect to cc immunity, in which case it should be fixed, but that’s not something that can be accurately tested in a high-population fight in Cyro with the current performance.

React · December 2022

Regardless of whether or not it is pulling people who are CC immune, the fact that it is a stun that doesn't grant immunity is already extremely broken. When you then consider that the set also hits as hard as many ultimates, it's hard to believe that a developer came up with this idea and that is subsequently passed whatever processes needed to make it to the live server.

They absolutely need to change some things about this set. If the absurdly broken mechanic of pulling people without granting them cc immunity is going to remain, it shouldn't deal damage at all. If the damage is going to remain, the pull should grant cc immunity so you can actually counterplay the damage by moving away from it.

jtm1018 · December 2022

virtus753 wrote: »

In Cyrodiil I find that cc immunity seems to be more a suggestion than a rule in general, for a variety of sets and skills.

[snip] are you serious?

Its more of a suggestion than a rule?

Cyrodiil is messed up?

[edited for profanity bypass]

Jaraal · December 2022

This set hardly ever shows up in my death recaps. You would think more people would run it if it gave any serious advantage.

I run it on my brawlblade, because he has multiple means of proccing it. But he doesn’t seem to be any more effective than any of my other builds, to be honest.

I think more people run Dark Convergence because it has a damage multiplier per target and hits harder in crowds. This set has no multiplier.

tsaescishoeshiner · December 2022

I get double-stunned constantly in Cyrodiil when there are a lot of players, so I think it's not unique to this set. If this set was pulling CC-immune players consistently, and not only sometimes like other stuns, I would expect it to be broadly abused.

FluffWit · December 2022

They did the same thing when Dark Convergence was added- decided their new set was too cool to have basic combat mechanics apply to it. We all saw how that worked out.

You're supposed to be immune to stuns for 6 seconds after being stunned without any potions or bonuses. It certainly feels like it simply doesn't work a lot of the time. But adding sets that intentionally ignore that rule isn't a good idea.

Malkiv · December 2022

I know that I'm getting pulled by npc Stranglers after I've already broken free of their stun effect, and regardless if I've rolled away. This bug was highlighted by the MOS vHM runs I did last night. Every single toon I did the vHM on were pulled around by all the Stranglers while under CC immunity.

redlink1979 · December 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

(...) You're supposed to be immune to stuns for 6 seconds after being stunned without any potions or bonuses. It certainly feels like it simply doesn't work a lot of the time.(...)

Always feel that when fighting several Dark Convergence users in Cyro, I get stunned by one after the other until I died.
This happens too many times because CC immunity simply doesn't work.

Jaraal · December 2022

redlink1979 wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

(...) You're supposed to be immune to stuns for 6 seconds after being stunned without any potions or bonuses. It certainly feels like it simply doesn't work a lot of the time.(...)

Always feel that when fighting several Dark Convergence users in Cyro, I get stunned by one after the other until I died.
This happens too many times because CC immunity simply doesn't work.

Yes, and I think the lag has a lot to do with it as well. Effects stack up in a laggy packet, and are then registered at once or in quick succession in a burst.

ZOS_Icy · December 2022

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

Kordai · December 2022

It was added because sets was next in cycle to buff ball groups. Completely useless for literally anybody else.

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

for anyone who doesnt understand why this set is so powerful and not seen very often ill try and explain a bit.

first, yes it does pull you and not proc cc cooldown which is mega ultra broken and if you dont understand how thats broken ill paint a picture for you. so for example if you get rush pulled, your first reaction is to either block or roll dodge... howver that only works to a point, many people stack the set with sorc streak or an undodgeable ultimate so that you cant do anything and there is no counter play.

so in the average environment this set is used in (group play pvp) its probably the most powerful aoe damage and burst set in the game with pretty much no counters and no competition. the reason you dont see it alot is bcs its not as good solo if you dont have the team damage to back it up. however thats not to say you CANT use it solo, you 100% can and its still very strong but when you stack it in a group with even 1 other player who can do damage with you... it becomes insane.

for some fixes to the set ill throw in my thoughts as someone who uses the set currently and has been using the set since release.

1)Just make it proc cc cooldown. there is no reason it shouldnt, dark conv does so why doesnt this? its way to strong without it. you COULD increase the damage by 2 or 3% to compensate or add another effect like making it proc offbalance (that might be too strong) or something like that, but the no cc is crazy and needs to go.

2) personally i think the damage needs to be nerfed and the CD needs to be increased. like react said, this set hits harder than most ultimates do. If you have a good build and are setup for a rush playstyle the set will often hit players for 10 - 12k damage on top of your normal burst + ulti combo. ive seen this set do 40k+ burst damage in 1 frame and kill whole teams in bgs and zergs in cyro just from 1 person. thats not like rare either its pretty normal to have 1 shot lvl damage with a good rush of agony build.

all in all i think the set needs a nerf to bring it in line with other sets, as it stands right now this is the best stamina aoe damage set you can wear in a group and it gives you everything you want in a set... great stats, amazing burst proc damage... and a pull that can be spammed and doesnt proc cc cooldown.

Elendir2am · December 2022

i don't understand, how could anybody in ZOS think, that adding set after set, which help easily kill enemy is good idea. Balgroup use this type of sets against solo players (12vs1) so they don't need sweat. Question is, what they will add next, to trimph this one.
Locking this type sets for smaller group only (4-) would work better.

Jaimeh · December 2022

I wiped just today to it, escaping the convergence by getting pulled by the set all used a bomb ball group. Fun times. Can't comment on the immunity part because I don't think I had immunity, but nevertheless in PvP with all the other eleventy million CC's, it's annoying to say the least.

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

People have not noticed it as much as it is used because it's often ahead of Dark Convergence and Dark Convergence has the flashiest animation while this shows almost nothing. Pretty much every time you're pulled in to a DC and are like "WTH! I was way out of that!" Or you get pulled and try to get out and pulled again, is because Rush of Agony was used. It should have never been put into the game.

Jaimeh · December 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

People have not noticed it as much as it is used because it's often ahead of Dark Convergence and Dark Convergence has the flashiest animation while this shows almost nothing. Pretty much every time you're pulled in to a DC and are like "WTH! I was way out of that!" Or you get pulled and try to get out and pulled again, is because Rush of Agony was used. It should have never been put into the game.

Yeah the only reason I knew was because I had a look at my recap since I was sure I had escaped the convergence...

YandereGirlfriend · December 2022

I would cut the proc damage out of this set but keep the rest. There really isn't any reason that the proc damage needs to be there.

That said, people tend to only notice things when they kill them and they don't notice all of the other, less amazing, aspects of the set. For one, this set straight-up does not work in even mild lag. You will teleport to somebody and then... nothing happens. Sometimes you will even be teleported somewhere random due to positional de-syncs with your intended target.

It is also much less convenient to use than DC, as DC can simply be cast on the ground from long-range with little effort required. Additionally, DC allows you to drop it at the centroid of a large group, ensuring a maximum number of stacked players. Since Agony requires a target, you are at the mercy of how players organically move themselves, and if they stay somewhat split up then there is no appealing target to use it on.

Further, this set can 100% be avoided by a quick Dodge-Roll. It happens all the time. Follow-on Stuns can also be avoided with a Dodge-Roll, even if you are pulled. High-tier players will escape like this routinely.

Finally, there is the stack itself, which is a VERY lose stack around the caster. Compare this to the very tight stack of DC and you can easily see why follow-on Stuns can be Dodged. More concretely, if the set only brings you to a stack 5 meters away from the caster and the caster wants to use a 6-meter Stun, then a quick Dodge-Roll places you well outside of the Stun range by the time that it goes off.

Anyway, I hope that this sheds some light on the set so that people get a more accurate appreciation of its strengths and weaknesses. It definitely is not as strong as it is presented in a highly edited montage video (it also does not pull if used with Streak since Streak itself applies Hard-CC immunity before the Agony pull is processed; the actual pulls in the video are made with Stampede).

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

This set 100% works in lag, you often get teleported randomly or when blocking/ rolling when hit by it.

You make it sound much easier to dodge than it is. The reason why you see him either re using it or streaking after is to counteract your ability to dodge the combo. Also the set doesn’t go on cd if the person dodged the hit.

Most of those montages are edited based on like day or so of gameplay not weeks and months like other videos. This is really consistent to pull of ok players.