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Magicka Sorcerer Suggestions and Ideas
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axi✭✭✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.Edited by axi on November 26, 2022 6:41PM1 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.8 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Magsorc lacks offensive capabilities due to lack of access of major breach and telegraphed proc dependant burst within its toolkit. In addition its burst heal option is way too squishy paired with stupid AI.
Shields scaling of dmg is not a good idea unless you want to see run ppl with massive effective HP via shields.1 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »yes sorcs will become op
And that there is your problem. Sorcs want sorcs to be OP, they don't want balance, they want to be over powered.
We all agree on one thing, this post is a request to make sorcs better than every other class.
Do you realize just how unfair that is and how much of a slap in the face to every other class player in the game that is?
And then there is this...Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
While it may be the case that sorcs are not op, I'm not sure about some of the reasoning:
Outdated and clunky skills? What, compared to the DK's Stonefist? First cast is melee range AoE, the next three casts are ranged, and you only get the stun on the last. Four casts... you could walk (or streak) out of range in that time!
Mediocre execute? What compared to the DK's execu... oh, hang on, they don't even get one!
2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Magsorc lacks offensive capabilities due to lack of access of major breach and telegraphed proc dependant burst within its toolkit. In addition its burst heal option is way too squishy paired with stupid AI.
Shields scaling of dmg is not a good idea unless you want to see run ppl with massive effective HP via shields.
Most of the classes have telegraphed burst and many setups lacks decent acces to a major breach so they choose to run with destro on both mag and stam setups. Sorc lacks burst heal since day 1 which was always a trade of for having shields which right now are problematic due to reasons I mentioned above. I would even say we have now more healing option on sorc than before.
You can just change sorc shield to have unique scaling if You are affaraid that people will run around with shields although I highly doubt that everyone would start running shields after proposed change.Edited by axi on November 27, 2022 2:02PM0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.Edited by axi on November 27, 2022 2:22PM1 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Magsorc lacks offensive capabilities due to lack of access of major breach and telegraphed proc dependant burst within its toolkit. In addition its burst heal option is way too squishy paired with stupid AI.
Shields scaling of dmg is not a good idea unless you want to see run ppl with massive effective HP via shields.
Most of the classes have telegraphed burst and many setups lacks decent acces to a major breach so they choose to run with destro on both mag and stam setups. Sorc lacks burst heal since day 1 which was always a trade of for having shields which right now are problematic due to reasons I mentioned above. I would even say we have now more healing option on sorc than before.
You can just change sorc shield to have unique scaling if You are affaraid that people will run around with shields although I highly doubt that everyone would start running shields after proposed change.
Like scaling works rn its not worth stacking max mag. Twilight crits for up to 18k in nocp. Let's be realistic, ZOS won't dial back scaling for a long time if ever. Shields should be reworked to function like buffs - atm their cost and gcd investment isn't even a thing to consider. Can't remember when be beaten by a shield sorc while running shieldless sorc myself.
To be clear - I'd prefer if healing get decoupled from weap/spell dmg and scale of max resources <-- that would boost shield style but still won't do anything for a lackluster offensive toolkit.0 -
AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 27, 2022 6:08PM3 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 27, 2022 6:09PM2 -
AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
I have 1vXd, 2vXd, group played and played in Bgs in every single update since 6 years ago. I know exactly what I'm talking about. In 99% of my Bgs in go 0 deaths even in high MMR. I can survive entire zergs chasing me. I have adjusted and adapted immensely to make magicka sorcerer viable. I can sill make a 22k health, 13k stamina and 51k magicka sorcerer work. I can make a 30k health, 36k magicka sorcerer work, I can make a proc set magicka sorcerer work. The specific playstyles you are mentioning are extremely easy. I do suppose it's what you specifically want out of the class. If you are happy by playing a role In which is just support that's fine. But as a whole the class needs reworking regardless of playstyle. That's my only point. The class needs buffing. Weather people agree or disagree. It's seriously outdated.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 27, 2022 6:09PM2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
I have 1vXd, 2vXd, group played and played in Bgs in every single update since 6 years ago. I know exactly what I'm talking about. In 99% of my Bgs in go 0 deaths even in high MMR. I can survive entire zergs chasing me. I have adjusted and adapted immensely to make magicka sorcerer viable. I can sill make a 22k health, 13k stamina and 51k magicka sorcerer work. I can make a 30k health, 36k magicka sorcerer work, I can make a proc set magicka sorcerer work. The specific playstyles you are mentioning are extremely easy. I do suppose it's what you specifically want out of the class. If you are happy by playing a role In which is just support that's fine. But as a whole the class needs reworking regardless of playstyle. That's my only point. The class needs buffing. Weather people agree or disagree. It's seriously outdated.
Playing in BGs 6 years ago would be hard considering they were released less than 5 and a half year ago. Just saying.
Good for You for making sorc work but it looks like You changed Your attitude a lot from Your previous post to this one. From claiming that setup I described cannot work and proves I dont know what I am talking about to almost agreeing that said setup works and is easy to play with. it's not what i want for the class it's just something I know works really well in high MMR BG groups. if it's easy well than it's win/win scenario but it doesnt add much to the discussion. It's not role that "just supports" it's a role that is also responsible for getting kills, in fact most kills in a match while also keeping allies alive when playing in mentioned by me setup. Pretty neat if You ask me but i understand for many it wont fit their idea of running around and trying to kill everyone on their own like in good old days. And yes I do agree class needs reworking as I already mentioned in one of my previous posts. But that rework should go in both ways because levels of disengagment that streak provides makes it almost certain that the moment when sorc defense and/or offense are being buffed to standards of other classes due to having streak on top of that sorc leaves everyone else behind.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 27, 2022 6:10PM0 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I do think and wholeheartedly sorcs need a LOT of love for both pvp and pve, and the class be able to have a much larger variety of builds rather than only pets for BOTH stam and mag dps, as well as whatever the class runs to actually be alive in pvp. Pve and pvp builds have the opposite issues. Pve is completely dominated by double-pet dps builds for any spec, while pvp, any sorc who wants to use pets reliably has a hard time keeping said pets alive because they die so easily without high resistances. Shields are such a thing of a the past that only a handful of relics such as myself still use them in any part of the game. The other classes do pretty swell as their builds in both end games aren't choked into such specific builds for both stam or mag. I do understand some people will disagree and say we're just whining. But when the other 5 classes are much more prevalent in both pve and pvp, we have some points to make.Sorcerer's pretty much been the same for years. Nerf Rush of Agony and Saints&Seducer's4 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Ironically, I made a joke about this setup (Kvatch Gladiator) hanging back and spamming endless fury/mages wrath a couple of months ago on a different thread.
Here’s the thing: it is an effective, pathetic playing style.
If you want to hide and build for opportunistic kills, where someone else has beaten down your opponent… well there’s another class that’s designed to do that.
For me, and many others, that playing style is one-dimensional and uninteresting. We want to play a MagSorc that engages in combat, effectively utilizing multiple skills in an exchange against a good opponent that lasts more than 5 seconds. Does this make sense?
6 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Let’s say ZOS does all the changes in OP’s post
I will still be the king of pvp on my NB.
Why ?
Game designers have made it pretty clear that nb is supposed to be the strongest class in the game6 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]
Doesn’t matter how long you played the class.
I picked up nb this patch I can 1vx mag sorc mains who played the class since beta
Class is in need of massive overhauls. Even the best mag sorc across all servers will not beat my NB
6 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »yes sorcs will become op
And that there is your problem. Sorcs want sorcs to be OP, they don't want balance, they want to be over powered.
We all agree on one thing, this post is a request to make sorcs better than every other class.
Do you realize just how unfair that is and how much of a slap in the face to every other class player in the game that is?
And then there is this...Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
While it may be the case that sorcs are not op, I'm not sure about some of the reasoning:
Outdated and clunky skills? What, compared to the DK's Stonefist? First cast is melee range AoE, the next three casts are ranged, and you only get the stun on the last. Four casts... you could walk (or streak) out of range in that time!
Mediocre execute? What compared to the DK's execu... oh, hang on, they don't even get one!
What is wrong in sorc being OP.
There is a class in the game that has battle spirit exceptions and literally has exceptions to every pvp rule which ZOS created.
Can someone tell me one good reason why sorc should not be OP or get monumental buffs ?Edited by PhoenixGrey on December 3, 2022 10:02AM4 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
I have 1vXd, 2vXd, group played and played in Bgs in every single update since 6 years ago. I know exactly what I'm talking about. In 99% of my Bgs in go 0 deaths even in high MMR. I can survive entire zergs chasing me. I have adjusted and adapted immensely to make magicka sorcerer viable. I can sill make a 22k health, 13k stamina and 51k magicka sorcerer work. I can make a 30k health, 36k magicka sorcerer work, I can make a proc set magicka sorcerer work. The specific playstyles you are mentioning are extremely easy. I do suppose it's what you specifically want out of the class. If you are happy by playing a role In which is just support that's fine. But as a whole the class needs reworking regardless of playstyle. That's my only point. The class needs buffing. Weather people agree or disagree. It's seriously outdated.
Playing in BGs 6 years ago would be hard considering they were released less than 5 and a half year ago. Just saying.
Good for You for making sorc work but it looks like You changed Your attitude a lot from Your previous post to this one. From claiming that setup I described cannot work and proves I dont know what I am talking about to almost agreeing that said setup works and is easy to play with. it's not what i want for the class it's just something I know works really well in high MMR BG groups. if it's easy well than it's win/win scenario but it doesnt add much to the discussion. It's not role that "just supports" it's a role that is also responsible for getting kills, in fact most kills in a match while also keeping allies alive when playing in mentioned by me setup. Pretty neat if You ask me but i understand for many it wont fit their idea of running around and trying to kill everyone on their own like in good old days. And yes I do agree class needs reworking as I already mentioned in one of my previous posts. But that rework should go in both ways because levels of disengagment that streak provides makes it almost certain that the moment when sorc defense and/or offense are being buffed to standards of other classes due to having streak on top of that sorc leaves everyone else behind.
[edited to remove quote]
I can bet you that even if ZOS reduces stacking cost on streak I will still not touch my mag sorc
The problem with sorc lies in having non existing defense and offense.
PVP is about combat and not just running away.2 -
KilianDermoth✭✭✭✭
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...Edited by KilianDermoth on December 3, 2022 11:58AM0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭KilianDermoth wrote: »
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...
I disagree with the biased opinion that NB is allowed to be OP for however long but sorc needs to balanced. I also disagree that classes need to be balanced
Do you know why so many sorc mains play NB now? Because it is OP.
PVP’ers want to play strong classes because they are fun which the whole point of video game
No one plays a so called balanced class like sorc. Remember when eso pvp was actually good? Do you think everything was balanced back then?Edited by PhoenixGrey on December 3, 2022 8:07PM3 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Let’s say ZOS does all the changes in OP’s post
I will still be the king of pvp on my NB.
Why ?
Game designers have made it pretty clear that nb is supposed to be the strongest class in the game
With all the changes proposed by OP that is debatable. Strong undodgable combo plus thicker and cheaper shields would be hard even for for nb to deal with.0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Key Point: MagSorc can be top class in lower/mid mmr bgs. If you learn to play it fast, and are fortunate enough to have a great internet connection, you will smoke most players in this population.
HOWEVER, in high mmr MagSorc is significantly weaker against much stronger classes (Dk, StamWarden, StamNb…) due to its outdated and clunky skills and mediocre execute. If you’ve actually played a MagScorc in high mmr, you’ll know that streak is ineffective against skilled players who are quick to either root you or close the gap or stun you, then you’re dead in 3 seconds.
People who think MagSorc is op haven’t played it against top players of other classes.
From what I saw really decent sorcs in high MMR group matches play the role of support/kill securer and they work really great as that. You basically keep You allies alive, enemies annoyed with roots, snares and stuns help with the dmg pressure a bit and You make sure to have execute active on players that Your allies are focusing. To secure kills they even run with Kvatch Gladiator on front bar and 3x bloodthirsty. It's a specialised setup but can work extremly well.
Oh dear, "Really decent Sorcs" "High MMR" "To secure kills" let me educate you just a tad. Players who play like that are NOT really decent. They are bad players in the grand scheme of things. Kvatch gladiator and 3 blood thirsty on a mag sorc just to finish off opponents LOL. Imagine a class just being that. [snip]
[snip]
Also I did not suggest that idea, I've actually seen it working really well. Have You actually tried that or have You seen it tried by others to claim it doesn't work? I would say that when sorc scores like 1M+ healing while also getting KD ratio with double digit kills and 0 deaths in high MMR matches than yes that setup works although I will admit there is only like 2 sorcs I've seen playing like that. which is why I said it's a specialised setup. Sorc is also a class I've played the longest, basically from launch which has been over 8 years now plus a short time period in beta.
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]
Doesn’t matter how long you played the class.
I picked up nb this patch I can 1vx mag sorc mains who played the class since beta
Class is in need of massive overhauls. Even the best mag sorc across all servers will not beat my NB
Pretty rude to take things out of context. I never said it matters how long I played I just answered to OP when he was asking about my playtime.
As for nb it doesnt matter who You're fighting against. All classes have hard time against them.
Magsorc really doesnt requires "massive overhauls". Few minor tweaks would already do the job. Thing with the pvp is that sometimes few small changes when combined makes huge difference.0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Let’s say ZOS does all the changes in OP’s post
I will still be the king of pvp on my NB.
Why ?
Game designers have made it pretty clear that nb is supposed to be the strongest class in the game
With all the changes proposed by OP that is debatable. Strong undodgable combo plus thicker and cheaper shields would be hard even for for nb to deal with.
One thing certain with every eso chapter is nb buffs. So no, sorc will still be a free kill for NB.
Besides NB has always been stronger than sorc. I don’t see the tables turning anytime soon2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »KilianDermoth wrote: »
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...
I disagree with the biased opinion that NB is allowed to be OP for however long but sorc needs to balanced. I also disagree that classes need to be balanced
Do you know why so many sorc mains play NB now? Because it is OP.
PVP’ers want to play strong classes because they are fun which the whole point of video game
No one plays a so called balanced class like sorc. Remember when eso pvp was actually good? Do you think everything was balanced back then?
I havn't seen even one person in this thread presenting opinion that that nb being OP is ok.
There is plenty of people who will always jump on current top dog and there is nothing unusual in that. Like yeah right now it's nb so people play it there is no mystery here.
There is a difference between strong and game breaking. Sorc having defense and offense at levels comparable to other classes plus streak on top of that is game breaking.
Nobody says magsorc is balanced atm. it's mediocre and in needs of some tweaks but that doesnt mean it has to be a "massive overhaul"
1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.Bouldercleave wrote: »So in other words, you want to be invincible in PvP and never die again.
Magsorc doesn't need 5% of what you are asking for to be OP to an insane degree.
So in other words, you want Magsorc to never be competitive in high-tier PvP again?
You dont need even quater of the changes from original post for magsorc to be noticably buffed. Quite frankly You dont even need changes dedicated purely to sorc. For example simply updating shields scaling and allowing them to scale from spell dmg+max magicka not just from max magicka would already open large variety of setups which right now are beyond reach of sorcs if they want to run with shields.
One of the main issues magsorc is facing right now is that You basically have just two options to run. You either run with shields which forces You to stack up magicka really high, which causes sacrifices in other aspects like damage and sustain or You can run with no shields building regular setup similar to other classes but then You have to give up on shields sacrificing one of the most class defining defenses.
Imagine if you would be able to run for example with rallying cry and wretched vitality plus orzoga food buff while still maintaining 10k+ hardened ward value. That would be a massive boost for Your defense while keeping the offense and sustain high.
Let’s say ZOS does all the changes in OP’s post
I will still be the king of pvp on my NB.
Why ?
Game designers have made it pretty clear that nb is supposed to be the strongest class in the game
With all the changes proposed by OP that is debatable. Strong undodgable combo plus thicker and cheaper shields would be hard even for for nb to deal with.
One thing certain with every eso chapter is nb buffs. So no, sorc will still be a free kill for NB.
Besides NB has always been stronger than sorc. I don’t see the tables turning anytime soon
That is incorrect. Current series of nb buffs follows a streak of nb nerfs that happened before. Nb was in a pretty sorry state for a moment after 2-3 patches of nerfs and then ZoS decided to start buffing it which ended up with too much buffs.
There were times when sorcs were top dogs leaving others including nbs behind. Nbs were even one of the easiest kills for sorcs at some point.1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »KilianDermoth wrote: »
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...
I disagree with the biased opinion that NB is allowed to be OP for however long but sorc needs to balanced. I also disagree that classes need to be balanced
Do you know why so many sorc mains play NB now? Because it is OP.
PVP’ers want to play strong classes because they are fun which the whole point of video game
No one plays a so called balanced class like sorc. Remember when eso pvp was actually good? Do you think everything was balanced back then?
I havn't seen even one person in this thread presenting opinion that that nb being OP is ok.
There is plenty of people who will always jump on current top dog and there is nothing unusual in that. Like yeah right now it's nb so people play it there is no mystery here.
There is a difference between strong and game breaking. Sorc having defense and offense at levels comparable to other classes plus streak on top of that is game breaking.
Nobody says magsorc is balanced atm. it's mediocre and in needs of some tweaks but that doesnt mean it has to be a "massive overhaul"
So sorc buffs are game breaking even before they have happened. But there are clearly multiple game breaking buffs with NB.
NB main heal has a battle spirit exception. Another example is spectral bow hits harder than any ultimate in the game.
When mag dk or magplar were top dog they got gutted almost immediately.
What happened when NB was top dog ? . They got more game breaking buffs
Let's be fair to all classes don't you think ? Start buffing classes and worry about the rest later ? Game is boring right now with lot of bottom tier classes.2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »KilianDermoth wrote: »
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...
I disagree with the biased opinion that NB is allowed to be OP for however long but sorc needs to balanced. I also disagree that classes need to be balanced
Do you know why so many sorc mains play NB now? Because it is OP.
PVP’ers want to play strong classes because they are fun which the whole point of video game
No one plays a so called balanced class like sorc. Remember when eso pvp was actually good? Do you think everything was balanced back then?
I havn't seen even one person in this thread presenting opinion that that nb being OP is ok.
There is plenty of people who will always jump on current top dog and there is nothing unusual in that. Like yeah right now it's nb so people play it there is no mystery here.
There is a difference between strong and game breaking. Sorc having defense and offense at levels comparable to other classes plus streak on top of that is game breaking.
Nobody says magsorc is balanced atm. it's mediocre and in needs of some tweaks but that doesnt mean it has to be a "massive overhaul"
So sorc buffs are game breaking even before they have happened. But there are clearly multiple game breaking buffs with NB.
NB main heal has a battle spirit exception. Another example is spectral bow hits harder than any ultimate in the game.
When mag dk or magplar were top dog they got gutted almost immediately.
What happened when NB was top dog ? . They got more game breaking buffs
Let's be fair to all classes don't you think ? Start buffing classes and worry about the rest later ? Game is boring right now with lot of bottom tier classes.
Yes buffing sorc to have defense and offense comparable to other classes and streak on top of that will be somewhat gamebreaking. And situations like that already happened in the past with sorc so it's not just blind prediction. Yes there are issues with nb being overbuffed with few recent patches. But thing that nb is now overbuffed doesn't suddenly justify overbuffing everyone else. What is the point of repeating the same balance mistake over and over?
No nb main heal do not have battle spirit exception, unless You are talking about its HP cost part which deals oblivion dmg to the user and as such ignores battle spirit same like every other ability in the game with health cost but that is actually a drawback not the benefit. By that logic necromancer's cleansing ability Expunge also "has battle spirit exception" because it costs same amount of HP in PvE and PvP. If healing part of that nb selfheal would ignore battle spirit nb would get like up to 40k heals in PvP from it which is not happening.
Yes spectral bow proc hits hard however the issue isnt with the skill itself but with the amount of secondary effects from other skills and passives that contribute to that. Tooltip of the ability and the core way it works didn't change since many years so it's not the issue with ability itself. Would it still be possible for it to hit harder than ultimates even without sdaid buffs? Yes, but it would be small difference which would be fine due to ability drawbacks and the fact nb does not have any delayed, off GCD burst ability like many other classes do. For example since we are talking about sorc, he can combine frag and curse to hit enemy in the same second, nb do not have tools like that and when You add up curse and frag tooltips they will be close or even higher than spectral bow.
Most recent gutting of mag DK took around a year. Nb isn't top dog for that long. It got really, really strong only recently, up to that point it was strong but within reasonable range.
Overbuffing one class after another isn't "fair to all classes". If we want to finally have somewhat balabnced PvP than the same mistake of just shuffling the top dogs shouldn't be repeated 9th year in a row. Many setups is becoming bottom tier because there is one or two top dogs that leave the rest behind. If sorc defense and offense would become comparable to other classes than that is excatly what would happen. "Worry about the rest later"? Isnt that what You are doing right now with the nb? Are You happy with the current state of the game where developer decided to overbuff nb and "worry about the rest later"?
0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »KilianDermoth wrote: »
It doesnt have to be OP. It would be sufficient if it would be on par. Or at least somehow close to the power of any other class like it was a few patches back, where it was already underperforming (except a few stam / hybrid sorc specs) but at least viable.PhoenixGrey wrote: »What is wrong in sorc being OP.
Now, well...
I disagree with the biased opinion that NB is allowed to be OP for however long but sorc needs to balanced. I also disagree that classes need to be balanced
Do you know why so many sorc mains play NB now? Because it is OP.
PVP’ers want to play strong classes because they are fun which the whole point of video game
No one plays a so called balanced class like sorc. Remember when eso pvp was actually good? Do you think everything was balanced back then?
I havn't seen even one person in this thread presenting opinion that that nb being OP is ok.
There is plenty of people who will always jump on current top dog and there is nothing unusual in that. Like yeah right now it's nb so people play it there is no mystery here.
There is a difference between strong and game breaking. Sorc having defense and offense at levels comparable to other classes plus streak on top of that is game breaking.
Nobody says magsorc is balanced atm. it's mediocre and in needs of some tweaks but that doesnt mean it has to be a "massive overhaul"
So sorc buffs are game breaking even before they have happened. But there are clearly multiple game breaking buffs with NB.
NB main heal has a battle spirit exception. Another example is spectral bow hits harder than any ultimate in the game.
When mag dk or magplar were top dog they got gutted almost immediately.
What happened when NB was top dog ? . They got more game breaking buffs
Let's be fair to all classes don't you think ? Start buffing classes and worry about the rest later ? Game is boring right now with lot of bottom tier classes.
Yes buffing sorc to have defense and offense comparable to other classes and streak on top of that will be somewhat gamebreaking. And situations like that already happened in the past with sorc so it's not just blind prediction. Yes there are issues with nb being overbuffed with few recent patches. But thing that nb is now overbuffed doesn't suddenly justify overbuffing everyone else. What is the point of repeating the same balance mistake over and over?
No nb main heal do not have battle spirit exception, unless You are talking about its HP cost part which deals oblivion dmg to the user and as such ignores battle spirit same like every other ability in the game with health cost but that is actually a drawback not the benefit. By that logic necromancer's cleansing ability Expunge also "has battle spirit exception" because it costs same amount of HP in PvE and PvP. If healing part of that nb selfheal would ignore battle spirit nb would get like up to 40k heals in PvP from it which is not happening.
Yes spectral bow proc hits hard however the issue isnt with the skill itself but with the amount of secondary effects from other skills and passives that contribute to that. Tooltip of the ability and the core way it works didn't change since many years so it's not the issue with ability itself. Would it still be possible for it to hit harder than ultimates even without sdaid buffs? Yes, but it would be small difference which would be fine due to ability drawbacks and the fact nb does not have any delayed, off GCD burst ability like many other classes do. For example since we are talking about sorc, he can combine frag and curse to hit enemy in the same second, nb do not have tools like that and when You add up curse and frag tooltips they will be close or even higher than spectral bow.
Most recent gutting of mag DK took around a year. Nb isn't top dog for that long. It got really, really strong only recently, up to that point it was strong but within reasonable range.
Overbuffing one class after another isn't "fair to all classes". If we want to finally have somewhat balabnced PvP than the same mistake of just shuffling the top dogs shouldn't be repeated 9th year in a row. Many setups is becoming bottom tier because there is one or two top dogs that leave the rest behind. If sorc defense and offense would become comparable to other classes than that is excatly what would happen. "Worry about the rest later"? Isnt that what You are doing right now with the nb? Are You happy with the current state of the game where developer decided to overbuff nb and "worry about the rest later"?
Nb might see some adjustments but it will still be top tier.
There will never be a significant nerf for NB. A whole lot of game design has been changed just for nb.
We can come back to this post and talk balance when nb is nerfed which is probably gonna be never.
Until then let’s buff other classes even if game breaking or whatever.Edited by PhoenixGrey on December 6, 2022 9:57PM3
