No PVP Content Coming In 2023?

jcasini222ub17_ESO · November 2022

@React keep fighting the good fight but I doubt it will go anywhere.

Just keep in mind with performance- I’ve always thought when we got upgraded we were running capacity with no cheat checks. Once the hardware was good we got our anti cheat checks and partitioned to our normal woeful server share.

Firor stated hardware won’t solve the issue. Inadvertently I think that played out when they returned Cyro to its normal server share. Even with the old hardware the last few MYM were awesome for me simply because our beloved Cyro was allocated more resources.

Stamicka · November 2022

I wouldn't be surprised if we never get new PvP content until the game shuts down honestly. It wouldn't matter though because the lack of content isn't what's keeping me and my friends away from the game.

Think about it:
- They introduce multiple broken mythics a year
- They balance primarily for PvE which leads to serious issues in PvP
- There's so many sets in the game to the point where PvP is overwhelming to get into
- The time to kill is pretty high, especially if you involve healers
- There's a lack of direction which leads to bizarre nerf/buff decisions
- There's homogenization and a lack of class identity
- They took away ult animation canceling and admit to trying to lower the skill gap
- Much much more

This is all stuff that would persist even if they added a new zone, reworked IC, added new BG modes, or whatever. You can fix performance, you can try to shake up the environment where the PvP happens, but the core balance and gameplay is rotten. The game is a joke. While this stuff persists, I (and many others) don't have much interest in ESO's PvP. Sure it can be fun to hop on with friends and PvP casually for a day or two, but you will quickly be reminded why ESO is not your main game anymore.

The bottom line right now: if you want to seriously PvP, ESO is not the game for it. Lack of content is a problem, but it is secondary to how uncompetitive and devoid of skill ESO's PvP is. Most actual competitive players got the hint and moved on to games suited for them. I get that there's nothing like ESO's combat system, but it has been horribly mishandled. I doubt the devs will do what they have to do to make the game genuinely competitive. Why would they? They can appease 90% or their population with pet petting, houses, new zones, easy overland enemies, and boring quests. It is a money machine.

React · November 2022

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

@React keep fighting the good fight but I doubt it will go anywhere.

Just keep in mind with performance- I’ve always thought when we got upgraded we were running capacity with no cheat checks. Once the hardware was good we got our anti cheat checks and partitioned to our normal woeful server share.

Firor stated hardware won’t solve the issue. Inadvertently I think that played out when they returned Cyro to its normal server share. Even with the old hardware the last few MYM were awesome for me simply because our beloved Cyro was allocated more resources.

I have speculated the same about the capacity aspect. The confusing part of this is the drastic decrease in performance we saw in u36. While over the past 3 months we have seen occasional lag in grayhost during prime time, it was never consistent and usually cleared up once whatever major fights were happening at the time dissapated.

Now, every single night since u36 dropped there has been severe lag in grayhost during prime time. It usually starts once the campaigns fill around 8pm eastern, and continues until they start to lose population around midnight. It seems to remain consistent and doesn't clear up as fights dissipate. I've also experienced the same lag in blackreach over the weekends when it fills - something that I've only seen once or twice since before the servers were replaced.

This begs the question, if the capacity was in fact reduced at some point post server replacement, was it further reduced in U36? If not, why did the performance degrade so severely in U36?

All in all, I'm just voicing my concerns and trying to make these issues more public by making these posts. There is understandably few people left that hold conversations about these things, but I'm willing to do it as long as I'm still invested in the game.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · November 2022

I hear you, I think U36 like bringing the block bug (which seems novel) messed with code more than we know.

This is more for cp Cyro but with how many calcs go on each new set with multiple proc conditions or even adjusted set conditions is walloping the server post 36. We have hints that the rewrite is an ongoing piece by piece process. I could imagine a novel bug, already intense calculations, and then background code change may have just pushed the hamsters over the edge.

We already operate with Desyncs and positional delays I imagine we are always walking on the cliff of playable and nonsense especially in prime time. The straw is always on our back (we the camel).

Lebkuchen · November 2022

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

[...] Even with the old hardware the last few MYM were awesome for me simply because our beloved Cyro was allocated more resources.

Not on Playstation EU. Even during PvP events the performance was abysmal/embarrassing/disgraceful/humiliating/shameful... And at the beginning of August 2022, with the maintenance in the middle of the MYM event, they completely broke Gray Host. It was unplayable! Almost everyone moved to Blackreach or stopped playing. There are still a hand full of suspicious sweatlords left, farming beginner guilds for their youtube channels, but Gray Host is a dead campaign. As far as i know, whatever they screwed up during that maintenance, never got fixed. If they really have the ability to "allocate more resources", where can i buy more, please?

jcasini222ub17_ESO · November 2022

Lol @Lebkuchen truth. I only speak from a PC/NA perspective it’s been my home since 2014.

I have zero clue how consoles have put up with your performance issues. Also PC/EU I really feel for you brethren. I read it, I see the clips and wow y’all have more willpower than me.

Jaraal · November 2022

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Beyond motifs, how about a mount? A pet? A skin? Or some unique action animations, the concept of which debuted in the most recent patch? Perhaps tie some of these to the leaderboards across various PvP venues.

I've always said they should release a house or special mount that costs 100 million AP, or 1 million tel var, or a combination thereof. Or even an animated arms pack for less. That would motivate people to PvP... especially the "gotta have it all" collectors.

Admit it: there are tons of players out there who think they hate PvP, but would absolutely love it, once they actually gave it a serious try. I know, because I was one of those people.

Amottica · November 2022

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. personally not liking Cyrodiils reward system when the zone itself draws players does not constitute a need to rework it. Sure, anything can use a tweak but overall Cyrodiil is fine outside of the performance issues.

The zone draws players to it because it has been the primary outlet for PVP since launch. The players in cyrodiil aren't there for the rewards, they are there because it is the only outlet where they can engage in medium-large scale fights with consistency. While it is my opinion that the reward structure is lacking, I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. The rewards are objectively bad when you compare them to other activities and look at the time investment required to net them. If they implemented a token system from ROTW to allow for the direct purchasing of specific gear rolls while adding new non-gear purchaseables, it would already be drastically improved from what it is now.

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full. I have seen some groups here and there during an event but nothing compared to what we have in Cyrodiil. Giving players something worthwhile to do would change that. So my comment does make a lot of sense.

This is incorrect though. The primary instance was full during the previous two MYM events and during last years double TV event - I have footage of this and clips where my group is engaged with over 20-30 players (including a clip where miats has over 60 people in one district on the player counter). It didn't lag at any point during any of this.

Your suggestion that the content should be left untouched and dead because "there's a chance it will lag" despite there being evidence to the contrary is absolutely bizarre.

We both have our opinions and reasons for them. Thank you for sharing yours. Just as I respect your opinion I expect you have the some for mine.

Regards,

I respect your opinion, but when it comes to statements of fact is important that we do not spread misinformation, and this statement

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full.

is untrue.

Statements of facts of how things would be are relatively dependent on the facts remaining the same.

Cyrodiil lag is often localized to significant battles, and those major battles are due to incentives. If we were all scattered around Cyrodiil the server load would be notably less.

Redesign IC so that it actually has something exciting and is incentivized, then we create an entirely different situation than what has been seen in previous TV events making those experiences irrelevant to what would be in a different design.

So yes, I agree it is essential that we do not spread misinformation just as it is that with a redesigned zone, the realities of the previous design are immaterial.

So again, I respect your opinion just as you respect mine. Glad we could both clear up some misinformation.

Regards.

Pepegrillos · November 2022

This might explain not just the lack of pvp content, but the lacking content in general: https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/xbox/zenimax-online-studios-new-xbox-ip-is-being-created-by-almost-200-developers

Lebkuchen · November 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Cyrodiil lag is often localized to significant battles, and those major battles are due to incentives. If we were all scattered around Cyrodiil the server load would be notably less.

Not really, at least not on Playstation EU.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · November 2022

@React ive been pondering the degradation and now I haven’t logged in about a week but we should have the armory stations in zone now correct?

Literally when I say Cyro can’t handle anything more I mean anything, lol like the deer.

So if the armory station is there come prime time is the most likely time it gets used. Get enough people pinging that station across all three factions I bet it causes database issues. If it’s anything like the past, like for example achievements, it’s not optimized and always looking at “all armor” not just equip set 1 set 2 set 3. I know we’ve had addons like dressing room but the armory station has always felt different.

One of those qol changes we wanted that prob bit us hard in the ass lmao.

OBJnoob · November 2022

Reading this thread is, unfortunately, like reading every other thread. Nobody is willing to compromise on their personal wishlist so we get arguments between people who would actually agree if they didn't insist on getting lost in the minutia. <snip>

How is any of this constructive feedback? How is anybody supposed to read this and know what the majority wants?

I'd like to suggest reconstructing this into a sort of poll, @React , if you could take some of your ideas and separate them into 3 or 4 options. And let people vote. It'll be a better gauge of wants I believe, and possibly result in less debating and tangents.

<snipped for baiting>

React · November 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

Reading this thread is, unfortunately, like reading every other thread. Nobody is willing to compromise on their personal wishlist so we get arguments between people who would actually agree if they didn't insist on getting lost in the minutia. <snip>

How is any of this constructive feedback? How is anybody supposed to read this and know what the majority wants?

I'd like to suggest reconstructing this into a sort of poll, @React , if you could take some of your ideas and separate them into 3 or 4 options. And let people vote. It'll be a better gauge of wants I believe, and possibly result in less debating and tangents.
<snipped for baiting>

I disagree with the person suggesting that "nothing should change until they finish the code rewrite" and the person that suggested telvar loss be removed, while providing my own reasoning as to why I disagree, and I'm "incredulous that nobody can see my genius"? Do we not participate in an open forum to have back and forth conversations where we explain our thoughts and reasoning to one another?

This isn't a feedback thread to begin with - it is a request for clarification on what, if anything, we can expect in terms of PVP content in 2023 directly in response to the developer comment. I'm happy to hold open conversation here about what that content could look like, but if I wanted to create a poll specifically to gauge interest in different content I would have made a thread about that topic.

LonePirate · November 2022

The lack of PVP content is very unusual considering many PVPers would be happy with a new Battlegrounds map. Apart from coding the new map to permit the various game types (with code that could be copied from other maps), battleground maps are low development effort outside of the art and world-building teams. Even then, the typical map is maybe 1/3 the size of a dungeon and ZOS cranks out four of those every single year.

So between the performance work, the staff drain by the other IP and the apparent absence of any desire to create new PVP content, it's no wonder it's been so long since there's been new PVP content in ESO.

Jaraal · November 2022

Pepegrillos wrote: »

This might explain not just the lack of pvp content, but the lacking content in general: https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/xbox/zenimax-online-studios-new-xbox-ip-is-being-created-by-almost-200-developers

That’s quite interesting. I assume Mr. Firor, as Studio Director, is in charge of that project as well?

Also worth noting that the only thing we know about the content is that “the story has changed multiple times over the game’s development.”

Sound familiar?

Lebkuchen · November 2022

LonePirate wrote: »

The lack of PVP content is very unusual considering many PVPers would be happy with a new Battlegrounds map. Apart from coding the new map to permit the various game types (with code that could be copied from other maps), battleground maps are low development effort outside of the art and world-building teams. Even then, the typical map is maybe 1/3 the size of a dungeon and ZOS cranks out four of those every single year.

So between the performance work, the staff drain by the other IP and the apparent absence of any desire to create new PVP content, it's no wonder it's been so long since there's been new PVP content in ESO.

Please no new Battleground map! We need something useful, for people who love playing PvP, from people who know and understand what PvP players want. Not just some alibi "content" that nobody needs...

OBJnoob · November 2022

Just trying to help @React sorry for being rude I was just trying to be blunt. I understand what you're doing and the back and forth I just don't think it's going to translate into anything effectual due to the formatting (or lack thereof.)

It's a big ask for people will full time jobs (talking about game devs,) to slog through this largely contradictory and non-unified conversation in search of the one or two gems there may be.

BlakMarket · November 2022

React wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Reading this thread is, unfortunately, like reading every other thread. Nobody is willing to compromise on their personal wishlist so we get arguments between people who would actually agree if they didn't insist on getting lost in the minutia. <snip>

How is any of this constructive feedback? How is anybody supposed to read this and know what the majority wants?

I'd like to suggest reconstructing this into a sort of poll, @React , if you could take some of your ideas and separate them into 3 or 4 options. And let people vote. It'll be a better gauge of wants I believe, and possibly result in less debating and tangents.
<snipped for baiting>

I disagree with the person suggesting that "nothing should change until they finish the code rewrite" and the person that suggested telvar loss be removed, while providing my own reasoning as to why I disagree, and I'm "incredulous that nobody can see my genius"? Do we not participate in an open forum to have back and forth conversations where we explain our thoughts and reasoning to one another?

This isn't a feedback thread to begin with - it is a request for clarification on what, if anything, we can expect in terms of PVP content in 2023 directly in response to the developer comment. I'm happy to hold open conversation here about what that content could look like, but if I wanted to create a poll specifically to gauge interest in different content I would have made a thread about that topic.

Well said @React

Lebkuchen · November 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

Just trying to help @React sorry for being rude I was just trying to be blunt. I understand what you're doing and the back and forth I just don't think it's going to translate into anything effectual due to the formatting (or lack thereof.)

It's a big ask for people will full time jobs (talking about game devs,) to slog through this largely contradictory and non-unified conversation in search of the one or two gems there may be.

You think devs are reading the forums? Or the community managers? There are a few "Mods" reading and policing it, but that's all. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Lebkuchen · November 2022

I do not want to start a whole new discussion, but i think it's a mistake to assume that anyone but a few players really reads the forums.

Datolite · November 2022

Just signed in to post my yearly "I'll come back if they give PvP some love" post but I see this thread has saved me some money already. How thoughtful of them to announce in advance that they're not going to bother.

ZOS, I really enjoy this game, and like many others I put my money where my mouth is. But I haven't bought a single crown in years because you have abandoned PvP. I'm off to New World for now to barely tolerate its combat and lack of features so I can at least enjoy some competition. Ciao.

DMuehlhausen · November 2022

Side Mini games don't normally get a lot of attention.

TechMaybeHic · November 2022

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. personally not liking Cyrodiils reward system when the zone itself draws players does not constitute a need to rework it. Sure, anything can use a tweak but overall Cyrodiil is fine outside of the performance issues.

The zone draws players to it because it has been the primary outlet for PVP since launch. The players in cyrodiil aren't there for the rewards, they are there because it is the only outlet where they can engage in medium-large scale fights with consistency. While it is my opinion that the reward structure is lacking, I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. The rewards are objectively bad when you compare them to other activities and look at the time investment required to net them. If they implemented a token system from ROTW to allow for the direct purchasing of specific gear rolls while adding new non-gear purchaseables, it would already be drastically improved from what it is now.

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full. I have seen some groups here and there during an event but nothing compared to what we have in Cyrodiil. Giving players something worthwhile to do would change that. So my comment does make a lot of sense.

This is incorrect though. The primary instance was full during the previous two MYM events and during last years double TV event - I have footage of this and clips where my group is engaged with over 20-30 players (including a clip where miats has over 60 people in one district on the player counter). It didn't lag at any point during any of this.

Your suggestion that the content should be left untouched and dead because "there's a chance it will lag" despite there being evidence to the contrary is absolutely bizarre.

We both have our opinions and reasons for them. Thank you for sharing yours. Just as I respect your opinion I expect you have the some for mine.

Regards,

I respect your opinion, but when it comes to statements of fact is important that we do not spread misinformation, and this statement

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full.

is untrue.

Cyrodiil lag is often localized to significant battles, and those major battles are due to incentives. If we were all scattered around Cyrodiil the server load would be notably less.

LOL This reminded me of them going to great effort to address performance by design. They put in the delve boss AP bonus hoping to get people to different objectives and spread out. Towns are on the edge. All because everyone just focused on the main ring.

And then they added the hammer. LOL

And destructible gates and bridges after removing destructible resource towers.

BlakMarket · November 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. personally not liking Cyrodiils reward system when the zone itself draws players does not constitute a need to rework it. Sure, anything can use a tweak but overall Cyrodiil is fine outside of the performance issues.

The zone draws players to it because it has been the primary outlet for PVP since launch. The players in cyrodiil aren't there for the rewards, they are there because it is the only outlet where they can engage in medium-large scale fights with consistency. While it is my opinion that the reward structure is lacking, I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. The rewards are objectively bad when you compare them to other activities and look at the time investment required to net them. If they implemented a token system from ROTW to allow for the direct purchasing of specific gear rolls while adding new non-gear purchaseables, it would already be drastically improved from what it is now.

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full. I have seen some groups here and there during an event but nothing compared to what we have in Cyrodiil. Giving players something worthwhile to do would change that. So my comment does make a lot of sense.

This is incorrect though. The primary instance was full during the previous two MYM events and during last years double TV event - I have footage of this and clips where my group is engaged with over 20-30 players (including a clip where miats has over 60 people in one district on the player counter). It didn't lag at any point during any of this.

Your suggestion that the content should be left untouched and dead because "there's a chance it will lag" despite there being evidence to the contrary is absolutely bizarre.

We both have our opinions and reasons for them. Thank you for sharing yours. Just as I respect your opinion I expect you have the some for mine.

Regards,

I respect your opinion, but when it comes to statements of fact is important that we do not spread misinformation, and this statement

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full.

is untrue.

Cyrodiil lag is often localized to significant battles, and those major battles are due to incentives. If we were all scattered around Cyrodiil the server load would be notably less.

LOL This reminded me of them going to great effort to address performance by design. They put in the delve boss AP bonus hoping to get people to different objectives and spread out. Towns are on the edge. All because everyone just focused on the main ring.

And then they added the hammer. LOL

And destructible gates and bridges after removing destructible resource towers.

Didnt they say they were adding other artifacts? Similar to hammer, like a bow and arrow I remember reading somewhere.

Jaraal · November 2022

BlakMarket wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. personally not liking Cyrodiils reward system when the zone itself draws players does not constitute a need to rework it. Sure, anything can use a tweak but overall Cyrodiil is fine outside of the performance issues.

The zone draws players to it because it has been the primary outlet for PVP since launch. The players in cyrodiil aren't there for the rewards, they are there because it is the only outlet where they can engage in medium-large scale fights with consistency. While it is my opinion that the reward structure is lacking, I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. The rewards are objectively bad when you compare them to other activities and look at the time investment required to net them. If they implemented a token system from ROTW to allow for the direct purchasing of specific gear rolls while adding new non-gear purchaseables, it would already be drastically improved from what it is now.

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full. I have seen some groups here and there during an event but nothing compared to what we have in Cyrodiil. Giving players something worthwhile to do would change that. So my comment does make a lot of sense.

This is incorrect though. The primary instance was full during the previous two MYM events and during last years double TV event - I have footage of this and clips where my group is engaged with over 20-30 players (including a clip where miats has over 60 people in one district on the player counter). It didn't lag at any point during any of this.

Your suggestion that the content should be left untouched and dead because "there's a chance it will lag" despite there being evidence to the contrary is absolutely bizarre.

We both have our opinions and reasons for them. Thank you for sharing yours. Just as I respect your opinion I expect you have the some for mine.

Regards,

I respect your opinion, but when it comes to statements of fact is important that we do not spread misinformation, and this statement

Amottica wrote: »

2. and we have not seen IC full, even during events it is not really full.

is untrue.

Cyrodiil lag is often localized to significant battles, and those major battles are due to incentives. If we were all scattered around Cyrodiil the server load would be notably less.

LOL This reminded me of them going to great effort to address performance by design. They put in the delve boss AP bonus hoping to get people to different objectives and spread out. Towns are on the edge. All because everyone just focused on the main ring.

And then they added the hammer. LOL

And destructible gates and bridges after removing destructible resource towers.

Didnt they say they were adding other artifacts? Similar to hammer, like a bow and arrow I remember reading somewhere.

Yes, Auriel’s Bow is a thing. And Sheogorath says he has more Daedric artifacts we can use if you talk to him in Cheesemonger’s Hollow. But this is another one of those things promised, but never delivered.

React · November 2022

I imagine they saw the massive negative impact the hammer has on performance, and decided against adding the others in. Probably for the best. On PCNA, every time the hammer spawns there is an observable drop in performance.

TechMaybeHic · November 2022

They never even bothered to make the hammer spawn work right. Only spawns in about a 3rd of possible locations and often the same place prime time, multiple days in a row.

And it often just winds up in the hands of a side already dominating and allows builds to be either complimentary or hindered rather than just make it take over Lots of things they could do to improve it and they just dumped it in and left it be

BlakMarket · November 2022

Pepegrillos wrote: »

This might explain not just the lack of pvp content, but the lacking content in general: https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/xbox/zenimax-online-studios-new-xbox-ip-is-being-created-by-almost-200-developers

I just wish we could hear from ZOS, not some abstract article.

YandereGirlfriend · November 2022

React wrote: »

I imagine they saw the massive negative impact the hammer has on performance, and decided against adding the others in. Probably for the best. On PCNA, every time the hammer spawns there is an observable drop in performance.

It's probably not the hammer itself but rather than map dynamics that it creates.

It instantly creates a faction-stack vs. faction-stack situation and that's always the worst for performance.

Jaraal · November 2022

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

React wrote: »

I imagine they saw the massive negative impact the hammer has on performance, and decided against adding the others in. Probably for the best. On PCNA, every time the hammer spawns there is an observable drop in performance.

It's probably not the hammer itself but rather than map dynamics that it creates.

It instantly creates a faction-stack vs. faction-stack situation and that's always the worst for performance.

Funny how 200v200 never was a problem, but now 70(ish)v70 can be a freeze frame lag fest.