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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Honest question: Why is gatekeeping class builds a thing in the PvP community?
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AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭Builds don't make a player good. Yes, they obviously help. But you need to physically learn how to PvP, and that's a LOT. And it's not straightforward either. There's so many little intricacies that people miss that make such a huge difference. Like what to cast when, how to move, when to move, where to move. Finding openings when on defensive, when to be defensive when on the offensive. Being extremely situational aware is paramount. Learning to predict, KNOWING what is coming or the potential of it and adapting to the ever-changing circumstances and situations you will be in. I cannot describe to every exact intricacie involved but when I look at a player there's certain things I look for. How quick they are in there rotation and how good/optimised it is. How they move and what they do when. Who they focus 1st. How they adapt and improvise to squeeze everything out of there character to survive and win in dire circumstances. There's so much involved and only through hardship and willingness to learn and play BY yourself in PvP. You will not ever reach a top level and gather that information which you desire. It's not something that can be explained or taught. It's something you learn.2 -
Dr_Con✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If everyone uses the same thing, zos nerfs it. I would imagine that someone would want to keep their overperforming build/rotation secret for this reason. The content creators who do release guides/builds find that they get nerfed, then they release more guides/builds after the nerf, creating a positive feedback loop of content creation followed by nerfs followed by more content creation.Edited by Dr_Con on November 23, 2022 10:06PM0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »YouTubers want views. If sharing builds gets them views, they'll do it ... Youtubers will tell you builds in exchange for views.
This sounds plausible, but if it's meant to imply YouTubers will share their best information, or that they have any, I don't believe that. YouTube is about build variety, about regurgitating commonly known facts, and about praising half-decent builds to high heavens. Deltia is guilty of that as much as anyone. It becomes impossible to tell the wheat from the chaff. That said, if you're new to the game, there is a lot of quality content out there, especially if you want to get into high-end PvE, e.g. vet DLC trials.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »Keep in mind people on youtube can get money/significant attention for posting content and as a result will frequently feel information is worth giving up.
I'm on board with this sentiment. I have to qualify this in that I do believe that PvP is about 70% skill and 30% build and I have good reason for that. I'm not that competitive by nature, but a friend is. That friend started much later than me, but well and truly surpassed me two years after we met, by duelling in Alik'r and playing open world / BGs. He will beat me with any class, any build versus any class, any build, other than perhaps if I were to play a tank or very tanky open world build.LesserCircle wrote: »Sometimes I feel like many PvP builds you can find on youtube and other sites are very... Ok-ish while people in the game have crazy builds that are super tanky and can do a lot of daamge, there's a certain level of gatekeeping for sure.
Nonetheless, when I get beat in a 1v1 for no obvious reason other than the opponent's damage seeming very high, I frequently review FTC combat logs. Sure enough, I find instances where, skill for skill, spammable versus spammable for example, their damage is much higher than mine. There are usually explanations, such as temporary buffs - especially Balorgh - and my own preference for speed and sustain over damage and tankiness, but sometimes I feel that I'm missing something alright. Then there are some cases with inordinate DOT pressure, despite general DOT nerfs, and you ask yourself what the meta really is, e.g. whether you need Rallying Cry or Mara or more ongoing self-healing. Like another guy in this thread said, people in a BG he was in were misleading the opposition / Twitch chat into thinking they were wearing Pariah, when in reality they were wearing a broken healing set. Good self-healing can be mistaken for tankiness. The other advice mentioned here, front-barring your burst heal, also seems a golden piece of information to me, the kind of nuance that is rarely discussed by anyone, but can make a big difference.
As to Cinder Storm (or the other morph), I saw that Deltia video when I had already been using the skill. In this particular case I'm not sure whether it wasn't exactly ZOS' intention to provide a beginner tanking skill. I've played that type of build in both PvE and PvP. You can become very tanky, but if you're wearing medium armor for the block-cost reduction and damage, like me, the downsides in PvP are that (a) you are not truly tanky and can die from a CC and (b) that PvPers consume your stamina much faster than happens in PvE. You can be charged the block cost every 1/4 second. If you wanted to perma-block and break even from Cinder Storm spam alone, you would strictly speaking have to get your block cost down to 250. This is not something you can do and still do damage basically. You can also get bogged down into blocking and spamming that skill for long periods of time. 1K stamina won't fill you back up, ready to attack. Perhaps that is how some people play until they get the opportunity to leap / burst or go into Corrosive. I actually still quite like the idea, but I don't see it all that much. This could be because it's not widely known, but I suspect there is also something a bit "meh" about that playstyle, which may have prevented wide adoption. Or perhaps, worst case, stamden is just better right now and, therefore, the people who would play that type of DK are mostly playing stamden. In that case stamden will get nerfed first and DK / Cinder Storm is next after that.Edited by fred4 on November 24, 2022 11:16AM0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »YouTubers want views. If sharing builds gets them views, they'll do it ... Youtubers will tell you builds in exchange for views.
This sounds plausible, but if it's meant to imply YouTubers will share their best information, or that they have any, I don't believe that. YouTube is about build variety, about regurgitating commonly known facts, and about praising half-decent builds to high heavens. Deltia is guilty of that as much as anyone. It becomes impossible to tell the wheat from the chaff. That said, if you're new to the game, there is a lot of quality content out there, especially if you want to get into high-end PvE, e.g. vet DLC trials.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »Keep in mind people on youtube can get money/significant attention for posting content and as a result will frequently feel information is worth giving up.
I'm on board with this sentiment. I have to qualify this in that I do believe that PvP is about 70% skill and 30% build and I have good reason for that. I'm not that competitive by nature, but a friend is. That friend started much later than me, but well and truly surpassed me two years after we met, by duelling in Alik'r and playing open world / BGs. He will beat me with any class, any build versus any class, any build, other than perhaps if I were to play a tank or very tanky open world build.LesserCircle wrote: »Sometimes I feel like many PvP builds you can find on youtube and other sites are very... Ok-ish while people in the game have crazy builds that are super tanky and can do a lot of daamge, there's a certain level of gatekeeping for sure.
Nonetheless, when I get beat in a 1v1 for no obvious reason other than the opponent's damage seeming very high, I frequently review FTC combat logs. Sure enough, I find instances where, skill for skill, spammable versus spammable for example, their damage is much higher than mine. There are usually explanations, such as temporary buffs - especially Balorgh - and my own preference for speed and sustain over damage and tankiness, but sometimes I feel that I'm missing something alright. Then there are some cases with inordinate DOT pressure, despite general DOT nerfs, and you ask yourself what the meta really is, e.g. whether you need Rallying Cry or Mara or more ongoing self-healing. Like another guy in this thread said, people in a BG he was in were misleading the opposition / Twitch chat into thinking they were wearing Pariah, when in reality they were wearing a broken healing set. Good self-healing can be mistaken for tankiness. The other advice mentioned here, front-barring your burst heal, also seems a golden piece of information to me, the kind of nuance that is rarely discussed by anyone, but can make a big difference.
As to Cinder Storm (or the other morph), I saw that Deltia video when I had already been using the skill. In this particular case I'm not sure whether it wasn't exactly ZOS' intention to provide a beginner tanking skill. I've played that type of build in both PvE and PvP. You can become very tanky, but if you're wearing medium armor for the block-cost reduction and damage, like me, the downsides in PvP are that (a) you are not truly tanky and can die from a CC and (b) that PvPers consume your stamina much faster than happens in PvE. You can be charged the block cost every 1/4 second. If you wanted to perma-block and break even from Cinder Storm spam alone, you would strictly speaking have to get your block cost down to 250. This is not something you can do and still do damage basically. You can also get bogged down into blocking and spamming that skill for long periods of time. 1K stamina won't fill you back up, ready to attack. Perhaps that is how some people play until they get the opportunity to leap / burst or go into Corrosive. I actually still quite like the idea, but I don't see it all that much. This could be because it's not widely known, but I suspect there is also something a bit "meh" about that playstyle, which may have prevented wide adoption. Or perhaps, worst case, stamden is just better right now and, therefore, the people who would play that type of DK are mostly playing stamden. In that case stamden will get nerfed first and DK / Cinder Storm is next after that.
You can just take ice stuff and mythic that regen you mana and block as much as you want.
A lot of skills ignores block, so you are even more motivated now use wampire cloud - with the same infinity mana sustain and healing by shielding (damahe shields).
Or take sorc with assylum shield and infinitly make your mana to stamina and back getting healing+damage shielding.
So it is tons of options, but I will not be surprised if ZOS nerf only DK, because for all time I play here it is wery pure designed class that always get nerfs - it looks like developers really hate DK.0 -
Kng_Ayumayuma✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »It's a competitive game. Some players spend 20-30+ hours optimizing a single build. Why give out all that hard work? It's like creating a startup and then giving out your trade secrets to your competitors. It makes no sense.
You mean the way Apple did for Microsoft? A long long time ago.Edited by Kng_Ayumayuma on November 24, 2022 12:40PM0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭Really good build take a lot of time to make. People who can do good builds understand how they work and how other builds work.
It is not really fun, if they get nerf after that or some one you do not like just stole it from you and play your build as example.
More disappointing if he will play bad on it, because it is just a shame for build )))0 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Telling a player what my character wears is not the same as telling them why it works so well. If I just told people the gear load out on my PvP nightblade, they’d look at me like I had two heads. It took hours of theory crafting and banging on a dummy to ensure certain stat benchmarks were met. But it was well worth it.
Tldr: people need to know how to theory craft and what makes a good build work. “Teach a man to fish…”0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭Telling a player what my character wears is not the same as telling them why it works so well. If I just told people the gear load out on my PvP nightblade, they’d look at me like I had two heads. It took hours of theory crafting and banging on a dummy to ensure certain stat benchmarks were met. But it was well worth it.
Tldr: people need to know how to theory craft and what makes a good build work. “Teach a man to fish…”
To make build work is a good idea behind it.
In current builds just max stats do not look like theory crafting at all - it is possible to make a bot, that can calculate all that.
It is not like theory crafting any more
It is more like game with 5-10 really good sets and all other is nerfed and always worse or even do not work because some thing is broken and just do not activates like it is written )
The same time all you really have is a little always the same stars you can chouse from. It is not hard to get best with even no thinking, just by changing them )
Now it is hard or even impossible to make some thing unique - because all is or nerfed or broken or just did not work or have bad numbers.
(or will be nerfed or broken the next patch you do that build)Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on November 24, 2022 2:42PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »YouTubers want views. If sharing builds gets them views, they'll do it ... Youtubers will tell you builds in exchange for views.
This sounds plausible, but if it's meant to imply YouTubers will share their best information, or that they have any, I don't believe that. YouTube is about build variety, about regurgitating commonly known facts, and about praising half-decent builds to high heavens. Deltia is guilty of that as much as anyone. It becomes impossible to tell the wheat from the chaff. That said, if you're new to the game, there is a lot of quality content out there, especially if you want to get into high-end PvE, e.g. vet DLC trials.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »Keep in mind people on youtube can get money/significant attention for posting content and as a result will frequently feel information is worth giving up.
In my case, I was talking about the supposed "mindset disparity" the OP sees between YouTubers who share PVP builds and the enemy PVPers who don't.
I think its pretty simple.
YouTubers get some benefit from sharing PVP builds and advice, i.e. they make content and get views. It doesn't necessarily have to be good advice.
Allies, guildmates, and friends get a lot of benefit from sharing PVP builds and advice because we're all on the same team. It's cooperative, not competitive. Assuming they know what they are doing, they'll usually give good advice.
Meanwhile, looking to one's competitive opponent to provide build tips and advice is less likely to work. The opponent gets little benefit and may actually harm their own priorities by cooperating.
Ultimately, the OP can't force their cooperative mindset on players who are acting competitively in PVP. So my advice is to look for build advice from the players who're inclined to act cooperatively: allies, guildmates, and friends. They can try asking their opponent, but its more likely to continue being frustrating.3 -
Skoomah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hi everyone, I'm genuinely curious and like to hear some point of views from you. In this case, I'm speaking particularly of PvP ingame (not content on Youtube as that is already public). Also because for PvE, players mostly run the same setups.
I had interesting encounters where I got genuinely curious about the build somebody used. At times, people asked me after a Battlegrounds game and I happily answered. Including links to the UESP build editor and videos (e.g. great guides from DeltiasGaming). But whenever I ask, in 98% of the cases I don't get a response. The juicy detail: It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).
Mind you, I'm not even asking often. There is much I can still recognize myself, such as proc sets. Yet the intransparency and gatekeeping of builds isn't fun(ny) though. It's like as if real competition isn't encouraged by some. And that it kind of comes down to perceived unfair advantages - including to hide what exactly is being used.
Personally I feel it would be helpful if an inspect feature was a thing in ESO. Even if it was just part of the death recap. But since it's not, oftentimes the experiences remain completely mysterious. And in the worst case, downright frustrating. Because this is especially discouraging for PvP newcomers. You probably know situations when you had a player in a group who had 20.000 health or less. When they end up getting one-shot, you probably think "it's no surprise" - but to them it is a surprise. For example: Imagine when you were a new player, and then discovered that the Balorghs set exists.
Where I wonder:
Why is it seemingly frowned upon to educate players more, and that players end up forced to "figure it out themselves"?
Is there still actual fun involved when build gatekeeping is deemed necessary? What could be the reasons? And where is the community spirit in that?
Do you think there is a mindset disparity between ESO PvP players ingame, compared to players you see on Youtube? (inside comments or popular content creators)
And: What could be done to make the experience more fun, welcoming and fair for everyone? Could an inspect feature be the solution?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts, I appreciate your insight!
Getting build advice from a friend is much easier than from a stranger. Friendship is a good starting point.2 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭Asking builds from a stranger the same time looks like: "Hey, give me money !"
2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Hi everyone, I'm genuinely curious and like to hear some point of views from you. In this case, I'm speaking particularly of PvP ingame (not content on Youtube as that is already public). Also because for PvE, players mostly run the same setups.
I had interesting encounters where I got genuinely curious about the build somebody used. At times, people asked me after a Battlegrounds game and I happily answered. Including links to the UESP build editor and videos (e.g. great guides from DeltiasGaming). But whenever I ask, in 98% of the cases I don't get a response. The juicy detail: It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).
Mind you, I'm not even asking often. There is much I can still recognize myself, such as proc sets. Yet the intransparency and gatekeeping of builds isn't fun(ny) though. It's like as if real competition isn't encouraged by some. And that it kind of comes down to perceived unfair advantages - including to hide what exactly is being used.
Personally I feel it would be helpful if an inspect feature was a thing in ESO. Even if it was just part of the death recap. But since it's not, oftentimes the experiences remain completely mysterious. And in the worst case, downright frustrating. Because this is especially discouraging for PvP newcomers. You probably know situations when you had a player in a group who had 20.000 health or less. When they end up getting one-shot, you probably think "it's no surprise" - but to them it is a surprise. For example: Imagine when you were a new player, and then discovered that the Balorghs set exists.
Where I wonder:
Why is it seemingly frowned upon to educate players more, and that players end up forced to "figure it out themselves"?
Is there still actual fun involved when build gatekeeping is deemed necessary? What could be the reasons? And where is the community spirit in that?
Do you think there is a mindset disparity between ESO PvP players ingame, compared to players you see on Youtube? (inside comments or popular content creators)
And: What could be done to make the experience more fun, welcoming and fair for everyone? Could an inspect feature be the solution?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts, I appreciate your insight!
I don't mean to offend, but there is a lot of entitlement within this post.
All the tools that you should need to research and craft a build for yourself are widely available within the community, which at this point has grown large enough to have a slew of updated widespread online resources to help you.
You should not have to chase down someone for their very specific build nor should you be entitled to know exactly what it is.
Your build is private and it is your own journey within the game and a reflection of your own knowledge and research. No other player has the right to it and nor should they.
You should want to build things with your own work and research rather than steal what others have.Edited by edward_frigidhands on November 25, 2022 12:24AM2 -
Shihp00✭✭✭Player Skill & Knowledge > Builds. Try learning the game instead of copying everything from others.
Would like to add that pvp 'Content creators' do not represent the other good players in ESO. you need to have Some serious practice and dedication to own ahss in this game.0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't give out super strong builds because I don't want to be zerged or ganked by it. It's happened many times and quite frankly I'm tired of that lol. If they want strong builds they can go figure it out themselves.1
